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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Trips_B on April 14, 2012, 02:55:04 pm
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Ok Ive already installed everything the following way but I never got an answer on Vortex if it will actually work and I would like to confirm this before I get insurance and start driving around
car is 86' Jetta TD, T3 turbo
I have removed the bov installed a block off plate and installed a bung.
from said bung I have a hose routed to the wastegate, (future MBC will be added inline)
from the stock bung on the A/R compressor housing that fed the WG I have re-routed to the LDA
the nipple on the intake elbow is being used solely for the boost gauge
the small opening thats in the intake on the A/R housing is covered by a silicone coupling to my air filter
the opening used to feed a secondary port on the WG. What is the purpose of this? I have left that port on the WG open to atmosphere
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5750/wp000245.jpg)
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2240/wp000244.jpg)
Wil this setup work? Im concerned as I dont actually see any boost on my gauge. The gauge fluctuates but even at 3200rpm in 2nd gear its not reading any boost and I can clearly hear the turbo spooling up through the 2.5" exhaust all around me ;D
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Yeah that should all work fine I would block the port on the turbo and run the lda and gauge from the elbow nipple, but it won't really make any difference
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???
you have everything labled wrong...
the red circle "to LDA" you put a small hose to connect to the wastegate, that hose tells the waste gate its getting boost and builds pressue to open the waste gate. this is where you would splice in a MBC to bleed off the pressure and thus not open the waste gate as much.
the green circle by the intake is nothing
the white circle should be nothing. just keep that blocked off.
the purple circle goes to the LDA and can be TEE'D off to a boost gauge.
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Here's what I would do.
1. Block the fitting at the red circle with a pipe plug.
2. I think you have the right idea by running the wastegate off the manifold (using the block-off plate as a convenient source of pressure). This draws pressure from the manifold, where it's slightly lower, instead of right off the turbo where the pressure is high, meaning the wastegate will stay closed longer. You can splice the boost controller in line from there. This is where I'm running mine from, the manifold, because I want after-intercooler boost not pre-intercooler boost to be measured.
3. Use the stock (purple) fitting for the LDA and your boost gauge. The LDA doesn't take much pressure to operate and from what I understand, the way it operates isn't linear... You basically get fuel metering "with boost" and "without boost." Increasing pressure to the LDA won't necessarily increase fueling, from what I understand.
4. Green circles- connect of cap. From what I understand about the T3 is that this side of the wastegate solenoid draws vacuum, which keeps the wastegate from opening under high-vacuum conditions. This probably isn't a huge factor on a diesel.
Anyway, I think the guy above me misunderstands what you're attempting to do, which is to modify how the wastegate is operated (to stop it from opening as much, therefore increasing boost) by drawing boost from a different source where the pressure is lower. I've done this on Volvos too.
You aren't trying to connect things as they are on a stock engine.
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???
you have everything labled wrong...
Thank you, I do know how it was hooked up stock im looking at alternative means
Here's what I would do.
1. Block the fitting at the red circle with a pipe plug.
2. I think you have the right idea by running the wastegate off the manifold (using the block-off plate as a convenient source of pressure). This draws pressure from the manifold, where it's slightly lower, instead of right off the turbo where the pressure is high, meaning the wastegate will stay closed longer. You can splice the boost controller in line from there. This is where I'm running mine from, the manifold, because I want after-intercooler boost not pre-intercooler boost to be measured.
3. Use the stock (purple) fitting for the LDA and your boost gauge. The LDA doesn't take much pressure to operate and from what I understand, the way it operates isn't linear... You basically get fuel metering "with boost" and "without boost." Increasing pressure to the LDA won't necessarily increase fueling, from what I understand.
4. Green circles- connect of cap. From what I understand about the T3 is that this side of the wastegate solenoid draws vacuum, which keeps the wastegate from opening under high-vacuum conditions. This probably isn't a huge factor on a diesel.
Anyway, I think the guy above me misunderstands what you're attempting to do, which is to modify how the wastegate is operated (to stop it from opening as much, therefore increasing boost) by drawing boost from a different source where the pressure is lower. I've done this on Volvos too.
You aren't trying to connect things as they are on a stock engine.
The idea i had to feed the LDA straight off the turbo was to "activate" it sooner. Would that work? pressure at the turbo would be more instant when it spools. Or is it redundent being that as soon as the turbo spools pressure in the intake also increases?
That extra port in the WG was hooked up to fresh air via a small hole in the turbo air intake. So if it draws vacuum should it be capped off or open to atmosphere
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The LDA doesn't take much pressure to operate and from what I understand, the way it operates isn't linear... You basically get fuel metering "with boost" and "without boost." Increasing pressure to the LDA won't necessarily increase fueling, from what I understand.
That's not right at all unless you are specifically talking about the joke pump that that AAZ was given. Any pump with a real boost pin and spring, the max fuel is changed linearly with boost pressure.
So does it make any difference to then connect the LDA to the turbo instead of the manifold. If the WG is connected to the manifold, which is supposedly lower pressure than the turbo. Then would you begin fuel enrichment via the LDA sooner and faster?
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That was going to be my next question. If the turbo activated the LDA earlier then manifold would i then be introducing fuel before needed or too much fuel at said boost levels
Ergo I will alter by lines as previous posted
1. Gauge and LDA from manifold elbow
2. BOV block off plate to WG
3. Pipe plug outlet on A/R turbine
Which still leaves the extra port on the WG which used to receive fresh air. I will currently leave it open to atmosphere unless I hear otherwise
Thanks everyone
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The LDA doesn't take much pressure to operate and from what I understand, the way it operates isn't linear... You basically get fuel metering "with boost" and "without boost." Increasing pressure to the LDA won't necessarily increase fueling, from what I understand.
That's not right at all unless you are specifically talking about the joke pump that that AAZ was given. Any pump with a real boost pin and spring, the max fuel is changed linearly with boost pressure.
******
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I would want the boost connection for the LDA connected to the manifold and not the turbo. The manifold more closely matches the air actually entering the engine which is what I want to fuel based on.
******
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Im a little confused here, what does ****** mean
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Probably said something that was 'bleeped' by forum mods. Either that or he's agreeing with those posts.
Either way, your final setup sounds like it will do just fine. I wouldn't put a cap in the WG vacuum port either, as it might hold the WG open by not allowing that port to vent air.
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Im a little confused here, what does ****** mean
Search for libbybapa, same guy as libbydiesel. about a year ago, libbybapa deleted every thread he ever posted, which caused a lot of damage to many great threads, making them disjointed and useless. Quoted threads, as what I have done, cannot be deleted by libbydiesel, this is if he ever decides to do it again.
Sadly, this forum allows deletion of threads by the author, with no time limits. I do not know of any other forum which allows it.
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Man, it's no problem at all. If you really want to push me, I really don't have to post anything useful, ever.
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92...you could have said, "so that they cannot be deleted" It would have been more tasteful than what you did. What libby did in the past is not in violation of any forum rules, nor is it if he continues to do so now. I and it seems you miss some information that he erased, but he is still alive and willing to share information I bet if you ask. Instead I think you are pushing it with calling him out saying he made threads useless and disjointed. So to you and everyone who wants to call people out instead of reporting a problem to a mod consider this a warning. If you want to continue to cast negativity to people contributing/uncontributing on here I will take more action. I can handle differing opinions and people erasing stuff. The rest is getting old. If you do have an issue with someone please PM me and if it needs action I will do so at a time convenient, that is what I am here for. As far as I can see, since libby has been back, he has not been anything but helpful to people, even when some are trying to pull a fight out of him for reasons of his past account. I think it would be best if people leave the moderating to the mods from here on out. If you have a problem with people deleting things you have a couple options: 1. quote it and be quiet. 2. PM the admin and tell him how bad of a forum he has set up and you want him to change the rules for you. 3. Cry, whine, complain about how bad this place is until one of us mods ban you. I probably shouldn't be so harsh, but I am just tired of the handful of milk toast people that have so much trouble with the forum rules about being able to post and remove and really want it to stop.
This forum isn't perfect because there are people involved = where there are people there are are problems, but it is the best resource for VW IDI diesel heads out there. It isn't bad for TDI either, but it just isn't our focus like some TDI specific forums. The point is it is a nice forum and we would like to keep it that way.
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The idea i had to feed the LDA straight off the turbo was to "activate" it sooner. Would that work? pressure at the turbo would be more instant when it spools. Or is it redundent being that as soon as the turbo spools pressure in the intake also increases?
I think what would happen is you would get more fuel than your engine could deal with, at least for a fraction of a second resulting in nothing more than a puff of extra smoke, if anything. Personally, I don't like my car to make a lot of smoke.
That extra port in the WG was hooked up to fresh air via a small hole in the turbo air intake. So if it draws vacuum should it be capped off or open to atmosphere.
I don't know why you don't just leave it hooked up. I think it's purpose is to prevent the wastegate from opening under certain circumstances. If you don't want it, I would definitely cap the hole in your turbo intake side so it won't suck unfiltered air. Then, go to the garden/small equipment section of your hardware store and get one of those tiny, universal, inline fuel filters. Take a piece of hose, mount the fuel filter away from the turbo and run a piece of hose to that port, connecting it to one side of that fuel filter. This will serve to keep dust and crap out of that port, while leaving it open to atmospheric pressure.
That's not right at all unless you are specifically talking about the joke pump that that AAZ was given. Any pump with a real boost pin and spring, the max fuel is changed linearly with boost pressure.
Let me phrase that differently. A tapered pin would have a linear increase in fueling, but, at what point does the pin travel reach the end of the taper, on our engines (assuming stock configuration)? Is it pretty soon after you start making boost or is it closer to full boost? My feeling is that you don't achieve any additional fueling after say... 6 or 7 psi, effectively making the LDA an on/off device, for practical purposes. I could be wrong though, maybe my IP isn't set up right.
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I'm putting this in a separate post because I would like to lodge a disagreement on the following grounds, regarding the forum and it's policies:
1. Deleting information because of personal disagreements is frowned upon in internet culture, in a general sense. It is perceived as selfish and immature. Therefore, it's not unreasonable to apply the same expectations to this forum.
2. Considering the above, I disagree that it's "a small number of users" that are annoyed by this practice, even if few people are outspoken about it, many more feel that it serves the community no good to delete information that would benefit people down the road.
3. It is largely fruitless. Computer data is much, much more difficult to eradicate than to create and once something goes on the internet, it's probably archived out there somewhere, it's not going to truly disappear.
In summary, this ought to be changed and this practice should be officially discouraged like it is most everywhere on the internet. I do believe you're being much too harsh if you were to say that nobody should be able to critique the way the forum operates or suggest alternative ways of doing things. I like this group but the death of online communities usually comes when the group becomes more focused on the individuals involved instead of the topic at hand. I think a change in policy would shift the focus back to the subject of this forum and away from interpersonal drama.
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I could be wrong though, maybe my IP isn't set up right.
I think you're right.
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1 -its the internet, QYB.
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Let me phrase that differently. A tapered pin would have a linear increase in fueling, but, at what point does the pin travel reach the end of the taper, on our engines (assuming stock configuration)? Is it pretty soon after you start making boost or is it closer to full boost?
<3 it doesn't even get there at stock boost.
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Maybe you guys who feel that the rules of this forum should be changed should form a committee and then petition someone to make an international law that all forums must place specific limits on the editing/deleting of posts. Maybe gather a military force so that dissenting countries can be threatened into submission. Personally, I think more folks should delete most, if not all of their posts, but that's just my opinion and I certainly couldn't care less either way.
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Maybe you guys who feel that the rules of this forum should be changed should form a committee and then petition someone to make an international law that all forums must place specific limits on the editing/deleting of posts. Maybe gather a military force so that dissenting countries can be threatened into submission. Personally, I think more folks should delete most, if not all of their posts, but that's just my opinion and I certainly couldn't care less either way.
lmao. There is a lot of stupid siht out there that probably should be burned from existence.. But you are far too knowledgeable to have the need to do so ;). Every word you speak is wisdom and intelligence. Whilst telling someone off you do so with planned accuracy and straight facts. To you sir, a raised pint is in order :D.
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Ok, I think perhaps all non-related posts to this thread topic should be deleted! J/K seriously lets all just get over it
Ok, so the boost pin DOES indeed move linearly in relation to boost
However @ stock boost it doesn't reach to top of the pin (narrowest section) for maximum fuel?
Does increased boost drive the pin lower? or does it have to be modified
Way to change this??? modified boost pin, shave the nylon washer and turn the starwheel down (cw)
Ultimatly, is there any benefits at all to run the LDA off the turbo
I have a modified pin, shaved washer, red timing advance spring.. (if this even works) after emissions testing I'll be installing these
I also have 2 TD IPs but I dont know which one would be best to have rebuilt and modded
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The boost pin does move in its bore by boost pushing on the top of its diaphragm. I think I have had it told to me that increasing boost will do nothing, as the pin has already had full travel by 7-9psi.. ??
The advantage to running the LDA directly off the turbo instead of the intake manifold is a slightly quicker fuel enrichment if you are going to inter cool it. If not then it will not make a lick of difference.
I think the red timing advance spring is in the middle of hardest to softest.. and the lime green is the most desirable.
As for the IP test, depending on which one ran the best would be a good indicator. If not a basic test of grabbng the pulley and rocking it back and forth and see if you can get any play out of the shaft that the pulley is on. The one with the less play, will be the best candidate for a reseal.. However if you are having it rebuilt, the main shaft bushing should be replaced..
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Every word you speak is wisdom and intelligence. Whilst telling someone off you do so with planned accuracy and straight facts. To you sir, a raised pint is in order :D.
You only think that because I edit and delete most of the stupid crap I write. :D
At stock boost pressure with a properly adjusted LDA, the boost pin will not bottom out. If you are wanting to increase boost above stock there are various ways to accommodate the extra boost. There are many boost pins with a more aggressive profile that come fitted with springs with a higher rate to match.