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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: tdotdub on April 07, 2012, 07:29:22 pm
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So I bought an egt gauge and an egt probe, for my 1987 audi 5000 turbo diesel quattro. And I got around to increasing the boost already, along with a performance pump (Giles) and what not. But I started driving it now, and still not intercoolered yet.. I am boosting at 22 psi. Now I want to intercooler it very soon. But I want to install this gauge even sooner.
Question 1) Where do I install the probe.. In the exhaust manifold before the hot side of the turbo? Or in the downpipe after the turbo?
Question 2) What is excepted egt levels.. and what is tooo high?
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In the exhaust manifold before the hot side of the turbo?
There
My car ran 1250 F on a long climb with stock fueling, and at 200,000 mi showed minor EGT damage to the pistons(and probably has no trace of temper left on the rings).
With an MBC, I run 600-1000 on the freeway depending on speed, slope, and wind.
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What is a MBC?
I run same as greasel, i turned my giles pump down as egt was hitting 1400 if i tried, now am used to hitting 1200 on a long and hard acceleration but stay somewhere around 1000 going up hill.
I don't know if that is too hot. Giles implied that 1200 is maximum continuous but who knows.
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So I bought an egt gauge and an egt probe, for my 1987 audi 5000 turbo diesel quattro. And I got around to increasing the boost already, along with a performance pump (Giles) and what not. But I started driving it now, and still not intercoolered yet.. I am boosting at 22 psi. Now I want to intercooler it very soon. But I want to install this gauge even sooner.
Question 1) Where do I install the probe.. In the exhaust manifold before the hot side of the turbo? Or in the downpipe after the turbo?
Question 2) What is excepted egt levels.. and what is tooo high?
what probe and gauge did you get?
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MBC = ball and spring boost controller AKA G valve.
Spools a lot faster, but also runs higher boost when I don't need it, so maybe hurts economy.
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oh, manual boost controller.
I have one but never installed it. I have a T3 and I think I will tune down max fuel to limit boost. That should drop my max EGT as well.
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Well I bought the vdo gauge and probe kit (does it make a difference?) And since you guys are saying I need to install it before the hot side, does that mean it will be hard to drill the manifold? And does a special place need to weld it since its made of cast (pretty sure its cast).
And I have no boost control at all.. The wastegate is blocked off. Is that bad? The pump only lets it boost up to 22 psi!
Another question.. I was driving my audi on the highway the first time yesterday (well first time with giles pump, release valve blocked off, and wastegate blocked off). I noticed on my gear pull that it boosted to 22 psi on WOT, than after a while it fell down to 14 psi.. and I was still on WOT, why is that?
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mine doesn't drop pressure, i have to back off due to egt. I have a t3. maybe one of the pros on this forum can tell you.
IIRC someone here had to jam the waste gate shut to boost high, i think it was a t3 as well.
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Another question.. I was driving my audi on the highway the first time yesterday (well first time with giles pump, release valve blocked off, and wastegate blocked off). I noticed on my gear pull that it boosted to 22 psi on WOT, than after a while it fell down to 14 psi.. and I was still on WOT, why is that?
part 6 messing with you.
(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb18/fenwick458/83intake.jpg)
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Mine would drop pressure and egt would skyrocket. I think you are still gaining rpm but the the turbo is done making boost. I never did figure out what was going on. Giles pump maybe just the way it acts as that is what I had too.
center of the exhaust manifold drill and tap...don't buy a weld in.
With my Giles pump I could see 1650F if I got into it. Only did it a couple times. I tried to stay under 1300-1400F at all times, but usually would shift when I would see 1200F.
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what about metal shavings due to drilling on manifold?
how do you keep it out?i am going to install one too but i dont want to remove the turbo apart since the hot side is welded to the manifold(clearance issues)
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drill the manifold with the engine cold, and running. it will push any metal particles BACK OUT THE HOLE from the exhaust being forced out..
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drill the manifold with the engine cold, and running. it will push any metal particles BACK OUT THE HOLE from the exhaust being forced out..
Does it need to be said: "Eye protection advised!"
J.R.
SoCal
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what about metal shavings due to drilling on manifold?
What about them?
They will blow right past the exhaust wheel when you start the motor.
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Mine would drop pressure and egt would skyrocket. I think you are still gaining rpm but the the turbo is done making boost. I never did figure out what was going on. Giles pump maybe just the way it acts as that is what I had too.
center of the exhaust manifold drill and tap...don't buy a weld in.
With my Giles pump I could see 1650F if I got into it. Only did it a couple times. I tried to stay under 1300-1400F at all times, but usually would shift when I would see 1200F.
hmmm that makes sense about the boost!
part 6 messing with you.
No its not, but thanks. I bought a block off plate for that from Giles.. It used to only boost to 12.. or 14. Don't remember. But now it boosts to 22!
drill the manifold with the engine cold, and running. it will push any metal particles BACK OUT THE HOLE from the exhaust being forced out..
Wow never thought of that. I'm dumb!
drill the manifold with the engine cold, and running. it will push any metal particles BACK OUT THE HOLE from the exhaust being forced out..
Does it need to be said: "Eye protection advised!"
J.R.
SoCal
Trust me.. I DO! Since last year I got a metal shard in my eye, and doctors told me I was so lucky since I could have lost my vision. Oh and it turned into a 3 month thing, since they could not remove it all at once! Now u only see me running around with safety glasses! And if haters hate.. Well let them!
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8) ftw
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I couldn't do mine on the car. I took it all off. Mine is MK2 and I am big guy with no lift...You can put grease in the flutes of the drill bit and it will tend to hold whatever is normally coming from them. I rag and some brake clean and your drill returns to normal.
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seems like the manifold would be hard to drill without using a drill press.
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seems like the manifold would be hard to drill without using a drill press.
cast iron is super soft tho..
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I did one for a friend and one for myself. I used a drill on one and a drill press on the other. Same bit both times. I would much rather do it on a drill press.
Someone, maybe saurkraut, on here said it was some variation of cast stainless. Cr 202 sticks to memory, but once again, I have no way of varifying that. It seems harder to drill than normal cast iron.
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I drilled thru the existing mounting hole. I drilled the threads out for 1/8 npt tap first so the bottom of the hole would guide the 1/8" clearance hole for the probe.
As suggested in this forum i angled the hole up toward the front so I wouldn't drill thru the flange corner.
I used a crap press, the kind that you clamp the drill on? Without it I don't think I could do it as well.
Also, I tried first with HSS bits and they wouldn't cut, so I tried crappy tire titanium coated ones and they wouldn't cut so I bought cobalt ones and they worked awesome. could be I just buy crap bits.
I heard that you can crack the manifold if the bit binds as it breaks thru so go slow and light at the end of the hole.
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I put mine through the EGR block-off plate on my AAZ manifold. Angled the probe a bit, it sticks right into the #1 exhaust stream.
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I'm still worried about it. But on the weekend, I will see if I have the proper drill bit, and tap, and see if I can make this work :) If not.. than I guess early next week, I'm going to buy a tap and drill bit.
I'm also worried about braking my exahust manifold. My freind has an mk1, and when he tried installing 2 on his car. It, was old and when he tried to work with them, they just cracked.. And I hope my old audi one will not brake.. My manifold was made in 84 after all!
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I had no issues drillin mine. some random bit i found in my tool chest, put my manifold in the vise and drilled by hand nice and easy. Of course I had an extra mani on stand-by and the car was in pieces so I didnt take too many precaustions.
GL, its definately nice having an egt gauge
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hate to thread jack, but I would like a CHEAP pyro, but would like it to work :( Im guessing thats a good luck kinda thing right?
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I got one for $4 at the local used tool shop, and called it a win.
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dang for reals?
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search micro 1000 and be done. Guage, probe, and shipping is under 100.00
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I was pretty surprised when I threw the probe in the fireplace and it worked.
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I was pretty surprised when I threw the probe in the fireplace and it worked.
Well . . . . . that's ONE way to test an EGT/pyrometer. :P
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^ lol yup, never thought of that idea.. But thats a good way to test it :P
I looked at my probe today.. And I have a feeling this one they want u to weld in a washer and than screw the probe into that.. Its late here.. And I got an exam 7:30 start tomorrow morning.. So I'll post pictures tomorrow and see what you guys thing.. I might be just missing the point!
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Hey theman53, I looked up this micro 1000 and it has a CHT gauge as well. I have a AAZ, how do I hook up this probe if I don't have
a spark plug? It would be nice to see the head temp.
Thanks
search micro 1000 and be done. Guage, probe, and shipping is under 100.00
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hate to thread jack, but I would like a CHEAP pyro, but would like it to work :( Im guessing thats a good luck kinda thing right?
Here's are some cheaper options:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EGT-Thermocouple-K-type-for-Exhaust-Gas-Temp-Probe-/250787715391?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a641cd93f
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/EGT-Thermocouple-K-type-Exhaust-Gas-Temp-Probe-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqV,!h8E8RW4!m!DBPGtB6774!~~60_57.JPG)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251036973100?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
No personal experience. If you try them out, please provide your experience with them.
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i bought one of those,but itīs not installed.
will go on a auber digital gauge.
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I have been busy, so I was not able to really check out my probe and gauge.. I bought the VDO "kit" Although the more I look at it.. The more I think its not actually a kit... DAMN QMR motorsports.. Anyways different topic...
So this is the gauge that came in the `kit`
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/d7335321.jpg)
This is the probe and how I found it in the bag.. Apears like they want me to weld it in the manifold.. And everyone is telling me not tooo...
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/b52e8a76.jpg)
This is how the probe looks like when you take off all the fittings off it!
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/8331ab27.jpg)
So what do you guys think...
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The weld on bung appears to be optional, say if you were installing in your downpipe. Otherwise just use the dual threaded fitting and tap drill your mani.
Doesn't have much in length on you sensor lead :-\
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Are you sure that's an EGT kit? Certainly does not look like it with the temp scaling, and the lack of s.s. braid on the wiring and how short it is.
I have been busy, so I was not able to really check out my probe and gauge.. I bought the VDO "kit" Although the more I look at it.. The more I think its not actually a kit... DAMN QMR motorsports.. Anyways different topic...
So this is the gauge that came in the `kit`
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/d7335321.jpg)
This is the probe and how I found it in the bag.. Apears like they want me to weld it in the manifold.. And everyone is telling me not tooo...
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/b52e8a76.jpg)
This is how the probe looks like when you take off all the fittings off it!
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/8331ab27.jpg)
So what do you guys think...
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The scale of the gauge is x10, 250-1650F. It is indeed a EGT but he's going to have to make the lead longer.
I suggest taking it to the firewall and affix some form of termination block. Get 4 new ring crimps like the ones on the lead and extend to your gauge.
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Let me preface my reply by saying that my EGT probe placement was chosen because I was afraid of drilling the Quantum exhaust manifold for fear of cracking it and because I didn't know the merits of installing it pre-turbo at the time.
Anyway, because you've got a 5-cyl TD exhaust manifold which you don't want to crack because it's made of unobtanium, you could mount the EGT probe where mine is mounted. A small block of metal was welded to the downpipe and that was drilled and tapped for the probe's mounting thingy. I also have the VDO kit.
Someone else can comment but as far as I understand it, EGT readings will be lower than pre-turbo (by ~200-400°F?) and there's a bit of a delay in the readings going up and down compared to pre-turbo temperatures (not just due to the slower VDO kit's probe).
(http://www.vwot.org/community/modules/Gallery/albums/album1116/DasherEGT_03.sized.jpg)
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ok, so I did in fact pick up that $30 total kit from ebay, basic digital gauge and the probe, for the $30 bucks, just keep in mind its coming from CHINA. Ive since ordered 10+ other items online including lots of ebay purchases and still havent received my shipment from china, so order plenty in advance.
At the price hes charging, I almost considered buying four of them. lol, would be kinda cool to see real time of each cylinder, would give instant heads up of small issues before they get bigger.
On another note, how hard is it to find a new turbo? and would there be room to install it in the flange of the turbo?
another cool option if the mounting wasnt specific (someone could make them and sell) would be a small maybe 3/4 inch spacer that bolted between the turbo and manifold, pre drilled for the probe.
buy the kits from china 50 at a time (might give you a bulk discount even) make the flange spacers for the most popular turbo flanges, could even include longer studs with the kit.
if needed you could possibly make the spacer just a bit thinner by making a weld on bung that doesnt sit between the turbo and manifold and just have the spacer thick enough for the probe to go through, but you would need a long enough probe to still hit the center of your hot gasses
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ok, so I did in fact pick up that $30 total kit from ebay, basic digital gauge and the probe, for the $30 bucks, just keep in mind its coming from CHINA. Ive since ordered 10+ other items online including lots of ebay purchases and still havent received my shipment from china, so order plenty in advance.
At the price hes charging, I almost considered buying four of them. lol, would be kinda cool to see real time of each cylinder, would give instant heads up of small issues before they get bigger.
On another note, how hard is it to find a new turbo? and would there be room to install it in the flange of the turbo?
another cool option if the mounting wasnt specific (someone could make them and sell) would be a small maybe 3/4 inch spacer that bolted between the turbo and manifold, pre drilled for the probe.
buy the kits from china 50 at a time (might give you a bulk discount even) make the flange spacers for the most popular turbo flanges, could even include longer studs with the kit.
if needed you could possibly make the spacer just a bit thinner by making a weld on bung that doesnt sit between the turbo and manifold and just have the spacer thick enough for the probe to go through, but you would need a long enough probe to still hit the center of your hot gasses
Did you buy the one I gave a link to? You won't know how well it works till you install it. FYI my Auber instruments probe and gauge is also made in China and it works fantastic! Whatever you do, do not install the probe post turbo, unless you do not care about getting accurate EGT readings. I drilled and tapped the 1/8 NPT hole with the manifold on the car by taking the passenger drive shaft out of my 92 Ecodiesel. Don't know if that is possible on your car.
If I have to do it again, I'd probably take the exhaust manifold out. Working from under the car is no fun. You have better control drilling on a drill press than under the car with an 18" long drill bit.
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My engine isnt built yet, I plan on installing before assembly, and if I turbo, I plan on installing on new manifold before i install into the car.
cant test it til I get it, lol,
What kind of temps come out of a gasser? lol,
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I have about 20 feet of extra EGT braided SS extension wire, let me know how much you need... You should also get a couple of the yellow connector plugs, they have EGT-specific connectors in them. All over Ebay, a few bucks each. The red wire is the negative lead, by the way, make sure you maintain polarity.
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I have about 20 feet of extra EGT braided SS extension wire, let me know how much you need... You should also get a couple of the yellow connector plugs, they have EGT-specific connectors in them. All over Ebay, a few bucks each. The red wire is the negative lead, by the way, make sure you maintain polarity.
I need about 6 feet. How much?
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Five bucks work for ya? ;D PM me w/ your details & digits.
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Five bucks work for ya? ;D PM me w/ your details & digits.
Sounds good! What gauge is the extension wire? I'll PM you my number in a little while..
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Dunno exactly, 24 or 26, or smaller... it's quite thin, single conductor. Individually insulated inside the SS sheathing. Doesn't really carry any load, just sensor signal.
Question for anyone with an EGT gauge; what is your reading at idle? I'm seeing about 215 deg. F , does that seem right, or low? Still have not had it out on the street yet to put a load on the motor, and revving it in neutral only kicks it up maybe 20 degrees. I have the Aircraft Spruce mini probe, and it does react immediately, I'm just concerned that having two connections and about 17 feet of wire might be biasing my reading down...
Thanks!
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When cold mine would idle around 200F, after completely warmed up I could get it to idle down to 250F and it would pretty much not get any cooler.
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holy cow, why 17 ft of cable? I would think that like three feet of cable would be more then enough on a standard car, have it come out of the exhaust straight through the firewall to the sensor, seems like 3-5 at the most
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Vanagon... engine in the back. :-* All the way up to the front bumper, up behind the headlights to the grommets, and into the dash area.
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gotcha, Im not not sure how the $30 ebay setup is going to work, seems to have a 10-20 second delay
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a 40 dollar micro 1000 is safe...from aircraft spruce.
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the ebay gauge, probe, and leads were $30...
wonder if the gauge would work with a micro1000?
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If it is K type leads then it should.
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yeah, and the gauge was only $10 plus three dollars shipping it took like 2+ weeks I think to ship
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IMHO what good is a gauge if it takes longer to show temps than what it takes to melt an engine? I had less than 90.00 shipped for the entire micro 1000, westach gauge, leads, and light kit. It only reacts as fast as you push and let off the pedal...