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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Krisverde on April 07, 2012, 07:30:53 am
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So I was driving along, shifting through gears when all of a sudden this loud humming started and it kind of went away and I took it out of gear. Pulled in somewhere and now noticed the engine was making a loud ass ticking (besides the IP hahaha) now. I dunno if it's a rod knock or what. It almost sounds like it's coming from the head. Do the heads have issues with ticking?
Car runs fine and doesn't smoke anymore than it already does. Has oil in the engine too.
The only thing I have done recently was put a resealed IP on the car. Car has 193k on it also.
Link to vid
http://youtu.be/kFBKHE9rUpc
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If the sound goes away when you coast with you foot off the pedal it is probably not rod knock and a fuel noise
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It's kind of hard to tell from the cell-phone audio and short clip but I think you have an exhaust leak.
How long has it been since you had your valves adjusted or your injectors checked?
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Yes it sounds like mine did when I had the exhaust fall off and for ***s and giggles i also took the breather off.. Man did it sound pissed off ;)
Other than that, the ticking I hear is what a normal IDI should sound like.
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timmingbelt cover???? your brave...
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Damn cell phone quality videos. It may be hard to get this on video.
I didn't realize you needed to adjust the valves on this engine. That hasn't been checked along with the injectors. It does sound like a really bad lifter tick (kind of like my old passport) So maybe after doing the valve adjustment the sound will go away.
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The valves are supposed to be adjusted fairly regularly, something like every 15,000 miles but I think you can push it to around 30,000 since I've not seem them change that much or that fast. And it's a fairly complicated procedure to adjust the valves in that it requires special tools and special shims (which are available if you do intend to do it yourself). IMO this is one of the huge drawbacks of these engines. Wouldn't hurt to have the injectors tested if you don't think it's ever been done. Get new injector washers when you put them back.
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Yea I doubt the valves have been touched in...well forever. Ill probably just let the jetta sit until I get that issue taken care of and I sure hope it's the valves hahah. Gotta love cars. Get it running good and something else has to happen.
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Any recommendations on where to get the stuff for valve adjustment?
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I think you can use Volvo shims, but do measure well if you try.
You don't really need anything but feelers and air or a magnet if you take the cam out, but he depressor tool is nice.
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Dude if that's the case I have many Volvo shims laying around. Ill measure first. Also I have a new video...now the jetta idles like crap.
http://youtu.be/1yDrrXBtgow
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I thought you might.
one test;
idling, one at a time, loosen the fuel pipe at each injector enough that it misses- one will probably be different.
pull that injector, take it to a tractor shop, and ask them to test it (unless you can see it is all messed up).
When removing the injector use a 27MM socket, big enough at the top to not crush the bleed nipples, and pull the breaker bar toward the head only- away can break the injector boss off the head.
You will need a new seal washer to put it back together, or find the thread here on reusing them.
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I never verified it but someone once told me the air cooled shims were the same as ours...check it out first but it would seem vw being vw they would reuse everything they could.
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See...I never have had the air cooled engine apart. I have never even checked the oil in one. That is why I said I only heard it and check. I love the fact we have people that have more experience on here and can confirm and deny things.
;D That's funny. The air-cooleds had rockers and adjuster screws.
See...I never have had the air cooled engine apart. I have never even checked the oil in one. That is why I said I only heard it and check. I love the fact we have people that have more experience on here and can confirm and deny things. Now I know better and will talk to said friend about this next time.
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I never verified it but someone once told me the air cooled shims were the same as ours...check it out first but it would seem vw being vw they would reuse everything they could.
water cooled gas VW shims..
peugeot shims
some other ones even.
all work in our engine.
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Water cooled OHC VW gas and diesel shims are indeed the same. I would say the gas engines are more common but VW hasn't made a solid-lifter gas engine in an awful long time. If you know of any european car shops that have been in business since at least the 1980s they might have an assortment of shims laying around. I would be interested to know if Volvo redblock shims are the same.That would make things easier.
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I agree. I have 4 volvo heads sitting around haha. Also if I pull the cam off the diesel. I heard there is no key way?? Is that true. Pardon the noob questions. I'm new to volkswagens
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The cam has a key slot but the pulley doesn't. You don't have to put the pulley in any particular place as long as the cam is indeed at top dead center. I think this was done on purpose to make the pulley adjustable, so you can put the belt back on without having to "bump" the cam a half tooth, like you can sometimes get away with doing on a gasser.
Just put it on dry, don't use the cam slot at the rear of the cam to hold the cam and torque the bolt to at least 33 ft.lbs., I think you can push it closer to 40. To remove the pulley I have used a brass punch with great results. Steel punches tend to cut into the pulley but the brass is softer than steel and delivers a blow to the pulley without hurting it.
You don't need to pull the cam if you have the depressor tool, though if you're going to do other work, like to change seals and the timing belt, it might not be a bad idea,
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The cam has a key slot but the pulley doesn't. You don't have to put the pulley in any particular place as long as the cam is indeed at top dead center. I think this was done on purpose to make the pulley adjustable, so you can put the belt back on without having to "bump" the cam a half tooth, like you can sometimes get away with doing on a gasser.
Just put it on dry, don't use the cam slot at the rear of the cam to hold the cam and torque the bolt to at least 33 ft.lbs., I think you can push it closer to 40. To remove the pulley I have used a brass punch with great results. Steel punches tend to cut into the pulley but the brass is softer than steel and delivers a blow to the pulley without hurting it.
You don't need to pull the cam if you have the depressor tool, though if you're going to do other work, like to change seals and the timing belt, it might not be a bad idea,
the LATER pulleys had no keyway..
but the EARLIEST 1.5D cam sprockets, had a keyway.
my 1.5D is timed with a key in the cam and cam sprocket..
those keyways were there for a reason back in the day..
and my timing actually checks out with all the lock plates and pins also..
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Ok so I opened up the lines 1 at a time to create a misfire. 2,3 and 4 all changed but when I cracked open 1 it still idled the same.
So with that injector ill take it in.
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there is a seal washer underneath the injector to fish out with a hook of wire or??
It should be cone side down, but sometimes they get put in wrong and knock.
Don't just bend the delivery line aside, it will crack later. loosen them all or remove.
'screw covers' little plastic thimbles from ACE make sweet injector debris caps, but tinfoil works.
You could do a comp or leakdown test on that hole,
look in the hole, and cycle the glow plugs, if it lights up in ~10 sec, that is a good sign.
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Finally got around to working on the Jetta. Pulled out the injector and looked down the hole when I cycled the glow plugs. I did see red down there. Ill work on fishing out the seal washer. Looks like it will be fun to pull out haha.
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If it wasn't all packed with crap (should not be) it isn't usually too hard after you find a tight enough hook.
be sure not to bang the injector nozzle on anything, if the nipple gets distorted it's ruined.
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Got all the seal washers out and put caps over the tops of the injectors. Ill take them to a shop on Monday. Oh yea #3 was kind of oily looking.
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Old bicycle spoke hooks the washers out fine too.
European ford 1.6 & 1.8 diesel shims also fit.
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Just wanna double check there are no other washers for the injectors correct? Just the ones in the pre-chamber?
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correct.
And remember only wrench toward the head, away it is possible to break the thin threaded part off the injector hole.
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I once had one with the injector hole tig welded back up, its a shame, cuz it is so simple to remember, push on wrench to remove, push on wrench to install.
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Luckily the injectors came out with ease. When re-installing them just tighten them up and no anti-sieze right? Also any of you guys heard of monark nozzles? What's a good known replacement nozzles for these cars?
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I go 55 with a small dab of anti seize.
Cleaning the washer seats in the head can be a PITA
The new washer has to go in right way up, double check before you crank an injector on top of it.
Autohausaz has low prices on Bosch I think.
did you have a bunk one? if not, now is the time to run further tests
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Cool thanks for the tips. Yea you said cone side down on the seal washers right? Also I don't know if I have a bad nozzle yet. Ill get to it this week hopefully. Ill keep yall updated.
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Yep, cone side down, and I second the dab of anti-sieze and 55 lbs torque. Never know when they might go gunny again. I love the push to remove, push to tighten line. No pulling allowed on that head.
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I have another IP for 5 yr so change it just to see,before I have 4 plate on advanse piston so I remowe 2 biger and now I have big noise on Disel,but very good sound on oil fuel after heat engine.Good thing I didn`t shave piston too.
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Try searching for heat sheild pics. There are 2 sides to a cone so saying cone side down doesn't really get it for me. Concave side down might be better, but as long as you know the little hole is supposed to seal around the needle of the injector to be correct you should be OK.
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Alright so diesel place said my injectors weren't good... But they aren't the issue to what I am having. So ill be doing a compression test. what are the specs I should see?
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If you look at a heat shield there it is an intersection of TWO cones. The center cone should point UP, the outer cone should point DOWN. To say just that they should go "cone down" is intrinsically misleading.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/HeatShield.jpg)
Here's a cutaway. Red is the heat shield, blue is the injector and black is the head and cut lines.
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Alright I moved injectors around and it's still running rough and the issue seems to be from#1 cylinder still. So ill check the valves and do a compression test. I have a bentley sitting around for a mkII diesel I imagine its the same stuff?
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Might you have a loose piston at the crank?
Libby is back with the AutoCad. The forum is now complete again.
The Man53 how about washer looking up for orientation purposes. Rather than cone up, cone down. Or Washer like face to injector face. Is that less confusing?
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I just need to check the valves. It had a moment where it idled real smooth then started clacking real loud. Revved it up and missed then cleared up but still clacked real loud. I've only seen white smoke when it started missing.
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Oh and yall can call me stupid for this but I sprayed carb cleaner around the injectors while she was running. Once the fluid hit the spot where the nozzle threads onto the main injector the idle went up and I saw bubbling.
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Oh and yall can call me stupid for this but I sprayed carb cleaner around the injectors while she was running. Once the fluid hit the spot where the nozzle threads onto the main injector the idle went up and I saw bubbling.
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just as long as you didnt spray it in the intake, its fine..
and of course it will bubble, the engine was HOT..
whats the MAIN injector?
i didnt know there were primary and secondary injectors?
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I know you don't want to think this hard R.O.R. but how many times does the fuel get compressed between the intake of the IP and the output of the injector bodies.
Does the vane pump compress then inject to the secondary then in the internal pump in the head then again at the injector? Does the injector count at all because it only recieves a compressed stream of fluid and reacts to it? I think the name is misleading, true it allows the fuel to enter the cylinder but does it actually inject it?
I know nit pick, nit pick.
I think for bubbling at the threads most any liquid would do. Water, WD40, brake clean if you are fast enough to see it, watch the flash point there. The use of carb cleaner was more accidental than anything else.
MY 2 pennies
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I'm envisioning the threads between the injector body and the nozzle holder.
If the intake inhaled even a whiff of carb cleaner, there will be a bump in RPM.
When i suspect a leak, I dry the injectors with brake clean, and watch for the reappearance of liquid.
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Yes that's right. I just know the bentley shows upper and lower body of the injector. Anyways I sprayed around the area again and made sure to stay away from intake... No change in idle speed.
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Yes that's right. I just know the bentley shows upper and lower body of the injector. Anyways I sprayed around the area again and made sure to stay away from intake... No change in idle speed.
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so, it was just getting a WHIFF of vaporized carb cleaner to the intake air.. that would definitely account for a rise in idle speed..
being that the injector, and pre-chamber are both under VERY HIGH pressure, i didnt see how the engine could actually ingest enough carb cleaner thru the injector threads to actually change anything..
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I know you don't want to think this hard R.O.R. but how many times does the fuel get compressed between the intake of the IP and the output of the injector bodies.
Does the vane pump compress then inject to the secondary then in the internal pump in the head then again at the injector? Does the injector count at all because it only recieves a compressed stream of fluid and reacts to it? I think the name is misleading, true it allows the fuel to enter the cylinder but does it actually inject it?
I know nit pick, nit pick.
I think for bubbling at the threads most any liquid would do. Water, WD40, brake clean if you are fast enough to see it, watch the flash point there. The use of carb cleaner was more accidental than anything else.
MY 2 pennies
im talking about the actual INJECTORS.. not the various pumps that are used to feed them.
there are only 4 primary sources for the engine to receive fuel, and that is thru one of the 4 injectors..
there is nothing else on the engine that even remotely functions as a secondary fuel injector, in any way, shape, or form..
the various pumps TRANSFER fuel, as well as pressurize it, so the timing advance can operate, and the pump head can more easily operate with PRESSURIZED fuel at the inlet of the pump head, rather than relying on vacuum to suck the fuel into the pump head to be transferred one final time, thru the delivery check valves, thru the injection lines, and finally, shot thru the injector as a finely atomized mist, and burned by the engine..
tank>lift pump(if equipped)>vane pump>pressure regulator>pump head>delivery valves>injector lines>injectors..
so, to really NIT PICK, the fuel NEVER gets compressed, being that liquids do not compress 8)
im sorry Dale, but sometimes i feel the need to REALLY THINK (basically over-analyze) about things, and throw out the most smart-assed response i can come up with..
i mean no hard feelings either, like i said, im just being a smart-ass, that was just meant to be humorous, because you commented on me not wanting to think too hard about things.. so i took it one step further, and got some-what technical with my response. lol..
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Yes that's right. I just know the bentley shows upper and lower body of the injector. Anyways I sprayed around the area again and made sure to stay away from intake... No change in idle speed.
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so, it was just getting a WHIFF of vaporized carb cleaner to the intake air.. that would definitely account for a rise in idle speed..
being that the injector, and pre-chamber are both under VERY HIGH pressure, i didnt see how the engine could actually ingest enough carb cleaner thru the injector threads to actually change anything..
That's what my thought was too. I just wanted yalls opinion on it to confirm haha.
Is it worth checking the compression on the engine? I mean it's been running "smooth" besides the ticking. I can't believe I don't have feeler gauges.
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Yes that's right. I just know the bentley shows upper and lower body of the injector. Anyways I sprayed around the area again and made sure to stay away from intake... No change in idle speed.
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so, it was just getting a WHIFF of vaporized carb cleaner to the intake air.. that would definitely account for a rise in idle speed..
being that the injector, and pre-chamber are both under VERY HIGH pressure, i didnt see how the engine could actually ingest enough carb cleaner thru the injector threads to actually change anything..
That's what my thought was too. I just wanted yalls opinion on it to confirm haha.
Is it worth checking the compression on the engine? I mean it's been running "smooth" besides the ticking. I can't believe I don't have feeler gauges.
cant hurt.
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R.O.R. no offense taken on my part. I was kind of going under the assumption that to inject something was fitting of number 1 of this definition:
'inject
[in-jekt] Origin
in·ject [in-jekt]
verb (used with object)
1.
to force (a fluid) into a passage, cavity, or tissue: to inject a medicine into the veins.
2.
to introduce (something new or different): to inject humor into a situation.
3.
to introduce arbitrarily or inappropriately; intrude.
4.
to interject (a remark, suggestion, etc.), as into conversation.
Origin:
1590–1600; < Latin injectus past participle of in ( j ) icere to throw in, equivalent to in- in-2 + -jec- (combining form of jac- throw) + -tus past participle suffix
Related forms
re·in·ject, verb (used with object)
un·in·ject·ed, adjective
Seems we both tend to inject comments here as in number two and four.
I was thinking that as the fluid moves along its path from tank to engine there are a number of places where the pressure goes up therefore it was "injected"
At the final end though when the fuel is sitting at the injector is it not the pressure from the pump head that actually moves fuel in small increments down the line? Kind of like packing a papertowel tube with a sock. Stuff some in and when you start a second sock the first has to come out. I never thought that the fuel being shot out the check valve made it all the way to the injector.
Thus in my mind the injector never actually increase any of the fuel pressure at all does it? It just reacts to the pressurized fuel coming down the line and when it exceeds the spring pressure internal to the body it pushed up on the pintle and out comes the fuel.
Like getting a shot. The needle is a pipe and the syringe is the compressor.
Yes?
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Made another vid. This time you can hear the sound better. http://youtu.be/VLazfaGfO8M
#1 is leaking from the part where it's threaded into the head and where the nozzle housing threads on. Looks like ill just need to tighten them up. # 3 has a slight leak from the same place right in the middle. If that makes sense. That would tell me why it bucks a little on higher rpm's and I mean rev it out. Either way i'm sure these are simple fixes.
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I'd stop the leaks first. Next listen to each injector with the stethoscope.
Was anything done to the injectors?
Unless they are new, the rubber return hoses love to leak after being disturbed, and are often mistaken for an injector leaking.
Phones are pretty good about filtering noise...Broken valve spring might be a possibility.
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It could be that a valve is sticking open from being miss timed at one point in life. It sounds something like that to me from the phone vid. I don't think it is rod knock, I would say valve for sure. Check and recheck the timing. If needed pull the head and inspect. At that point you could take it to a machinist and have him look at it too.
The injectors could make a sound like that. I have heard them make some bad noises, but never over the phone vid. Hard to tell. What is the IP static timing set to?
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Head needs to come off tomorrow. Something oh so fun happened and the engine no longer turns over. Yes there was oil in it LOL.