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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: sdwarf36 on March 25, 2012, 05:12:15 pm
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Yikes! That was scary! Now I need to figure out why-no its not a sucked turbo seal-its in the pump.
Background: rebuilt engine with 7k miles on it-t3 turbo-Giles pump-running on veg (for the last 110k miles).
was driving down the hiway 70 mph-come to a hill-making 5 or so psi boost 800 or so egt. The veg filter was getting plugged-I felt it buck so i switched over to diesel-and it ran away. Managed to stall it as all the termoil was going on-key wasn't killing it at 1st-must have dumpped tons of fuel while making 25psi. (in further troubleshooting after cooling it would kill it though )
Things I've figured so far:
Its not in the oiling-the level is normal and in refireing it, there was nothing pouring out the breather-the air filter isn't oiled up.
Its in the pump-if the shutoff wire is pulled while its reving, it will die.
I can start the car-within 2 seconds it runs away-gas pedal has no affect. I can start-rev-shut off the key-let the rpm drop+ turn the key back on + it revs again.
I called someone that knows the pumps better than me-and one thing he thought-in trying to get my Giles pump "tuned down" to not pump tons of smoke, I have the screw on my LDA backed way out-maybe 7 threads or so showing.
So I guess my question is this-Is there anything you could think that in a situation where the IP is sucking hard for fuel and than all of a sudden get some-cause something in the pump to come unhooked and acting like its under full throttle due to adjustments cranked too far?
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this happened to me kinda...
does it shut off with the key now? i was coming home from work one day and all the sudden she just went WOT out of know where. i could kill it with the key, but if i turned it back on it would instantly go WOT. i got a new pump and all was solved
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The pump will not like to run 7 turns out. Which pump to you have and could you take a pick of it? Sounds like some of your home brew may have gunked up the insides...governor specifically. You might want to get some diesel purge or ATF and let it sit in it???
I had all sorts of plans to run Veg but after spending so much on my pump I couldn't bear to. Good luck.
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I agree Lucas, it would seem as though you have funked up your internal throttle. They get reallllly nasty inside when you run Veggie Oil.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/2012-03-15212917.jpg)
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I'm open to all suggestions, but this is a fresh pump with 7k on it. I had no problems in over 100k and 4 years of veg on my old engine/ pump. Is there anything in a rebuilt pump that would gum up differently?
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Maybe this particular time the veg oil was not quite warm enough???
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Surprisingly enough the same exact thing happened to me yesterday and today. Minding my own business going down the freeway when a horrible bang and enough smoke to cloud both sides of the road. Engine ran away and I got it stopped by braking in 5th. Started it back up & same thing. I pulled the breather hose and it fired up OK. Ran OK the rest of the way home and to work this morning. !/2 way home I passed some jerk at wot and then settled back down for a mile or so when Bang & smoke. I just kept it going & it cleared up. Now it runs better?????. I just rebuilt the thing after a cam belt jump & was disappointed that I still had what sounds like piston slap. It ran great except for the noise. I had a no hot start issue but attributed it to the bent valves and off timing. Still had the issue after the rebuild. I was planning on pulling the pump tonight but after the last bang, things cleared up. The knock is mostly gone and it fires right up hot. Tomorrow will tell if this is the fluke. BTW, just like you I'm running SVO. Been doing it for 4 years and 30K miles but this is the first run away that I've experienced. If this doesn't magically resolve itself, then it's probably back to the shop & another $600. I had suspicions of charge pump cavitation & subsequent erosion and was thinking that that may be the hot start issue. If it comes to that and that's the case, then I will certainly post my findings.
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Was the runway a 1 time thing or is it doing it consistently?
Have you messed with the fuel screw? Where is it set at?
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Maybe this particular time the veg oil was not quite warm enough???
I was 1/2 hour into the trip-oil was in the 130's. The throttle position was between 1/4 + 1/2 when it happened-it wasn't a case where I stuffed the gas + it stayed.
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Fuel screw has been played with many many times. Everything is turned down from where is was delivered. (I've been bothered by how much smoke it produces-I've sacrificed power for socially acceptible amounts of smoke) Nothing has been changed over the last 1000 miles. Residule screw (idle) was turned down untill it just about stalls-main fuel screw in till it just picks up the idle speed- maybe 1/4 turn. LDA screw backed way out. Just a litle poof of smoke if I push the pedal down some from 5 psi boost-good cloud if i go 3/4 thottle quickly + go over 12psi or so.
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" I can start the car-within 2 seconds it runs away-gas pedal has no affect. I can start-rev-shut off the key-let the rpm drop+ turn the key back on + it revs again."
Is this happening consistently? How are you filtering your veg? Take some parts off the pump and look for signs of vo gunk with a magnifier. if you find gunk, I can suggest some non invasive ways of cleaning.
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"I can start the car-within 2 seconds it runs away-gas pedal has no affect. I can start-rev-shut off the key-let the rpm drop+ turn the key back on + it revs again."
if I am reading this correctly, it sounds like your fuel shut off solenoid is not cutting fuel to the pump quickly and totally. I would suggest taking off the fss and cleaning it.
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All bets are off when you run waste oil. Especially on a performance pump where precision calibration and fuel viscosity and fuel temp play very important roles.
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FSS has nothing to do with it. Even if it were non functioning, you would still have full throttle control. You just couldn't turn it off. Mine seems to run fine after the incident. My "bad " engine befrore the rebuild had a lot of slimey crud in the breather hose. I cleaned it out the best I could but the "valve" on the cam cover is sealed. After the incident I un-sealed it and it still had some residual crud in it. I'm thinking that some of it worked loose and fed the engine a bunch of "fuel". This made the smoke & noise & subsequent running away. Eventually cleared & back to normal. How does your hose look? Does it run normal with it removed?
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$0.02 says Control collar stuck on its shaft.
Using hydrogenated oil by any chance?
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$0.02 says Control collar stuck on its shaft.
Using hydrogenated oil by any chance?
I was talking with CRSMP5 today and that was the conclusion we kinda liked.
As I said before, I looked hard into it and I was not going to run Veg oil after shelling out 1,200.00 for my IP plus the injectors too. Bio would be a different story.
Either way I hope it isn't too bad for you and I hope that you can get it back together.
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$1200 is 6 months fuel cost. :P I could throw away a pump a year + still be ahead of the game. I'm only driving a diesel SO I can run WVO. If this is a hiccup in the thousands I've saved-so be it. And that appears to be the case..
I called Giles to see if he could suggest something. He was thinking I had water in the oil + things got rusty. He said take out the main fuel screw + try pressing on what the screw hits and see if i can feel spring pressure -and will the piston move (it did). What I found on the end of the fuel screw was fresh brown "shmutz". (what the filtering is supposed to take out) Not old dried on crap or rust. I'm betting on the bucking and strain before I switched over to diesel shot some of the crud from the plugging filter thru the system.
So I guess its time to flush things out. :-\ Is that collar easy to access?
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I think the shaft sliding back and forth, with the force of the cam plate behind it would break the collar free from the shaft especially as the speed increases.
I suspect the flywheel weights or one of them is stuck.
Pull the top off the pump and look inside.
I wonder what diesel purge would do for a problem like this.
If I did diesel purge it; I'd swap a normal banjo bolt in the output so crap could flow out freely, instead of the restricted "OUT" bolt.
Is your CCV disconnected from your intake?
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Did it again on the way home. Pump is out and on the way to shop. Hot start problem solved itself but idle was wacky. I don't think that my engine will live through another time. I am in total agreement with sdwarf36 about the cost and the choice to run a diesel. Were it not for the "free" fuel, a diesel is not worth the hassle. Diesel now costs more than gas and the difference in mileage with some of the new cars doesn't make up for the higher fuel cost. Add to that the winter starting and more expensive parts and maintenance and it's not worth the hassle.
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$1200 is 6 months fuel cost. :P I could throw away a pump a year + still be ahead of the game. I'm only driving a diesel SO I can run WVO. If this is a hiccup in the thousands I've saved-so be it. And that appears to be the case..
I called Giles to see if he could suggest something. He was thinking I had water in the oil + things got rusty. He said take out the main fuel screw + try pressing on what the screw hits and see if i can feel spring pressure -and will the piston move (it did). What I found on the end of the fuel screw was fresh brown "shmutz". (what the filtering is supposed to take out) Not old dried on crap or rust. I'm betting on the bucking and strain before I switched over to diesel shot some of the crud from the plugging filter thru the system.
So I guess its time to flush things out. :-\ Is that collar easy to access?
Real easy once you have the pump apart...
Don't collect oil with shmutz, and for sure don't try to filter it.
What kind of filter?
FWIW, our 7.3 dump truck got a new pump 6 years ago, ran a ton of veg, and has only smoked a DMF and a couple pinion yokes. It still runs like the day we installed it
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I tried using a mighty vac to suck the pump out-and then sucked some diesel purge thru. It didnt help. I also did pull the "out" banjo-little filter was plugged. The veg filter is a Lubefiner lff3521.
"shumtz"=the brown paprika like stuff.
My filtering method is collect in cubies-let it sit a while-dump into 55 gal drum for 6 months-pump into another barrel theu a 100 micron nylon sock filter-heat to 120* for 24 hours-sit for 24 hours-then pump thru a 10 -a 5 and a 1 micron filter into another barrel-let it sit a week before pumping into the car. This batch of oil may have been more crappy than usual-the car filter did plug sooner than normal. I can usually get 2500 miles from the car filter.
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I am with you on saving money with fuel, but my time is worth something. I never got it down, so I don't know how fast I could do it, but I would rather do something else with my time.
Plus, my other motivating factor was with the amount I drive I NEED the car. If something like this happend it would hurt bad. When I lost my IDI I bought a TDI in less than 2 weeks because of this. I drive about 600-1,000 miles per week in my sales job. So at the min. I am right with you on cost of fuel for 6 months...I get it. But if I were going to do it I decided on Bio for me. Good luck to you and hopefully you get it sorted and this never happens again.
Back on topic: Your injectors and fuel lines all probably look the same as your pump. You may want to take a look at that stuff. If you do get the pump cleaned out, it may happen all over again if the lines and injectors send it right back in.
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" I called Giles to see if he could suggest something. He was thinking I had water in the oil + things got rusty. "
You racked up 100K VO miles using the same filtering scheme and had no problems. I assume you have not changed your filtering setup on the new engine and IP? So where did the water come from if it was the cause of your problems? One possibility is condensation from day/ night changes in temp. Not usually a problem on a daily driver because the condensed water gets cycled through as the fuel is burned daily. If the VO and diesel tank was not completely full when you had the car down for rebuild and sat for a few months, water accumulates and can cause problems if you did not flush the tanks. If you had clear fuel lines to the IP inlet, you would see murky instead of clear VO if you had a water problem.
"He said take out the main fuel screw + try pressing on what the screw hits and see if i can feel spring pressure -and will the piston move (it did). What I found on the end of the fuel screw was fresh brown "shmutz". (what the filtering is supposed to take out) Not old dried on crap or rust. I'm betting on the bucking and strain before I switched over to diesel shot some of the crud from the plugging filter thru the system."
How can bucking and strain "shoot" some of the crud from the fiklter into the IP? ??? The only way that can happen is if the VO filter was torn in the process.
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I never suggest water-that was Giles over the phone troubleshooting. Yea-I'm wondering what happened-the crap I saw was more than what you would expect to make it into the pump. I'll see tonite-off comes the pump + get to look inside for the 1st time. :o Back up plan is put on my old pump-it had an altitude compenstor on it-I presume with just a fitting change I can make it work the same as a TD pump.
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I never suggest water-that was Giles over the phone troubleshooting. Yea-I'm wondering what happened-the crap I saw was more than what you would expect to make it into the pump. I'll see tonite-off comes the pump + get to look inside for the 1st time. :o Back up plan is put on my old pump-it had an altitude compenstor on it-I presume with just a fitting change I can make it work the same as a TD pump.
something along those lines, but not quite that simple..
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If your intent is to remove the pump, have a look inside, then send it back to Giles for repair, then by all means pull the pump. If your intent is to try to free up the pump and get it running again, then do not pull the pump. It's less work leaving it on the motor.
Let me know if your intent is the latter, I do not wanna waste my time posting a cleaning procedure if you're not going to do it.
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What I found on the end of the fuel screw was fresh brown "shmutz". (what the filtering is supposed to take out) Not old dried on crap or rust.
I hope you didnt mix WVO and WMO see this:
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_users/4038-injector_pump_blocked_gunge.html (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_users/4038-injector_pump_blocked_gunge.html)
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Sounds similar to what happened to my Giles pump, but it happened within only a few miles. It would idle just fine, but would "run away" with any throttle. It would shutdown just fine though as it wasn't actually running away (feeding itself with oil) After playing around with the fuel screw and idle adjustment and a few calls with Giles for troubleshooting I eventually mailed the pump back and he determined it was the pump itself and re-built it again. Since installing it the second time, not a problem. (edit- actually the stop solenoid did stop working and I replaced it with one from Prothe)
here was Giles diagnosis after I sent him the pump->
we have pulled your pump apart and found the problem. it seems that the drive shaft bushings (bearings) spun inside the main pump housing for some unknown reason. the drive shaft was blue and scored and quite a few more parts inside the pump were damaged. We replaced the main pump housing due to scoring and the drive shaft bore out of spec now. replaced all other parts needed to bring your pump back to spec and assembled it.
The pump I got from Giles originally was not "my pump" it was one he had rebuilt and ready to go and he took mine as a core. I can only assume the core he used for the one I got back had some sort of internal issue which lead to it's quick demise. Not sure if your problem is the same as mine, but just sharing what I went through. I was only out shipping costs and Giles fixed the issue.
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"shumtz"=the brown paprika like stuff.
My filtering method is collect in cubies-let it sit a while-dump into 55 gal drum for 6 months-pump into another barrel theu a 100 micron nylon sock filter-heat to 120* for 24 hours-sit for 24 hours-then pump thru a 10 -a 5 and a 1 micron filter into another barrel-let it sit a week before pumping into the car. This batch of oil may have been more crappy than usual-the car filter did plug sooner than normal. I can usually get 2500 miles from the car filter.
In my experience, some oil just cannot be filtered adequately. If it won't go at room temps, it's no good.
Read post #3 & 4 http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2218203
then dissect your filter.
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I never suggest water-that was Giles over the phone troubleshooting. Yea-I'm wondering what happened-the crap I saw was more than what you would expect to make it into the pump. I'll see tonite-off comes the pump + get to look inside for the 1st time. :o Back up plan is put on my old pump-it had an altitude compenstor on it-I presume with just a fitting change I can make it work the same as a TD pump.
something along those lines, but not quite that simple..
If i install my old pump, its just gonna be a stopgap measure. The car is a commuter vehicle-I survived with no turbo for 100k. If i can just pull the hills ok-I'm not expecting much beside able to be mobile. Would there be any harm in hooking up the line from the manifold (boost signal) to what is a vent in the altitude comp. pump?
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I finally got the diagnosis on mine with a parallel problem. Diesel fuel injection service (Portland, Or.) said that my pump was lunched. The drive shaft was worn and the bushings were toast. I now know that I had the timing belt way too tight not accounting for thermal expansion and wiped out the intermediate shaft as well. The fly weights were jammed and the charge relief valve was stuck. The head and the charge pump are gone also. Two main causes are grit & contaminants and low Ph. The grit & crud I attribute to the cheap-ass filters I got from Prothe. I got tired of changing the NAPA filters every other week at $16.00 a pop so bought 10 @$7.00 /ea. I didn't have to change them as often and now I know why. The Ph is another matter. Apparently, my SVO is on the acidic side and has eaten up my pump. I'll need to do some research to see how to buffer it before I run it again. Just my $1000.00 experience.
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why IMO making bio costs less... for all your doing on filter time/seperation and such... to add in a stir it with some meth/lie... your done... but thats just me..
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It isn't so much adding the lye and stirring that makes WVO a better solution for us it is the removal of the glycerin waste product. Sounds like he could use some pH testing on his system. Maybe have to add some base to his product some how. That is what the lye in your process does and you have to kind of figure that out with titration or at least multiple gradations of lye to get it to neutral. I wonder if simple baking power would go into his oil without a fuss.
Oh and the methanol is a kicker too. Sometimes a little setup is more than space allows and going you method is just over the doable hump for some of us. I would like to drive on fuel I don't really need to worry about the temperature, the parts that can plug filters and such but just can't work a full blown filter/cooking situation into the space in the apartment complex. Sure as heck the neighbors would be calling the cops thinking I am making meth. Yeah they'd read the label on the Methanol and come to that conclusion for sure.
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Veering a bit off topic, but foord for thought non the less.. I wonder if there is something about ULSD that causes issue with WVO.. When I burned WVO back in the early 00's I never saw the brown "schmutz" inside the pump, filters, or anywhere for that matter.. Nothing more than a slimy yellowish tinted film.. And I burned some pretty nasty looking oil through that thing for well over 100K.. My filtration and water separation was poor at best (sometimes none at all!).. Pumps and injectors never failed, just the 11mm blocks and the bodies.. The last car I had I never noticed anything till the past few years.. Which so happens to be when the last station in the area started carrying ULSD.. Maybe veggie oil has changed too.. Dunno, to quote Peter Griffen "We're a gas family now"..
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What happened to the op? He hasn't had much luck with that engine.
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I asked the diesel guy about going with Bio and he said that there can be Ph problems with that too. It all has to do with the way it's made. Supposedly there is a process that uses sulfuric acid that works with particular nasty oil and I'm sure that screws up the Ph too. The oil itself seems to be burning fairly cleanly and I haven't noticed any gummy residues in the combustion chamber. My guess is that the glycerine component just burns up with the rest of the fuel. From the beginning BIO just seemed to be more of a hassle than it was worth. With methanol costing around $7.00/gal Lye is hard to get now because the tweakers have ruined that too. I've read a lot of biodiesel posts about cloudy fuel and titration and washing and it seems that it's more of a miracle that something useful is made than a 1,2,3 process. Firing up on diesel and switching over when things get heated up is a lot more convenient and safer. Name brand filters will be used from now on. I'm going to ask my chemist daughter about buffering the Ph without making some weird salts or other nastys. This rebuild will be $900 if we can find used parts. A gas engine might be cheaper.
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why IMO making bio costs less... for all your doing on filter time/seperation and such... to add in a stir it with some meth/lie... your done... but thats just me..
Wow you really make it sound so simple it sounds like a lie lol. I don't suppose you have ever actually made any? Just wondering. No insults intended.
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if you can make it in a dr pepper bottle it cannot be that hard...
he is filtering it in a way all he needs to do is add lie/meth in his last stage... stir it up.. let it sit... then the bottom turns to fatty acid.. orange in color.. vs the milky/yellow rest is.. on hottest months of year run the orange.. yes its acidic... so there is "no waste" mixed in with diesel..
the idea is using a pool acid tester to do the ph of the bio btw..
washing the bio is also a option and not required...
so yes for his 3 stage filtering tecnique.. adding one more step to me is not difficult.. find a place that makes windshield washer fluid (contains meth) and buy 5 gal at time.. last time i priced it it was about 1.50/gal.. but ill admit.. that was a few years ago.. and since ive collected 120 gal or wvo to convert.. done enough reserch on this.. just not built my temp outhouse to make it in.. do not wanna fumigate myself with meth fumes.. my garage is part of my central heat/air...
i tend to collect bio made up in the spring each year... so have not fallen back onto my stock pile.. save for rainy day.. this springs project involves 150 gal of bio, the materials to convert my 120 gal of wvo into bio, and cash for a 2 day car project.. in the end ill have ~300 gal of bio.. at worse 35mpg ive got 10,000 miles of bio to burn.. thats 2 seasons of car shows in the toaster.. normal around town for me is less then 30 gal a mo.. winter is 5 gal a mo.. LOL.. hate cold.. and lucky that work is 5 min walk
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Sorry for the lack of reply-last I checked the forum was down.
The culprit was a bad barrel of oil. There WAS rust + crud in the pump. :-[ (My old pump looked good inside-so its a batch problem -not an VO in general problem.)
What made the pump to zoom was the fuel pin? ( The small pin that rides on the ramp of the LDA pin.) It was stiff + not sliding freely.
I installed my old Atl. compensated pump-moved the vent fitting to below the the diaphram + a fitting giving boost above it. Works good-I actaully prefer its manners at around town traffic speeds. It will only make 8-10 psi boost with my foot down though.
One thing I noticed-my gas pedal doesnt travel as far as with the Giles pump-I wonder if thats an adjustment thats was made to it-it seems the WOT stop screw IS backed out more on the Giles pump.
Oh well-gives me an excuse to buy a ultrasonic cleaner now. ;)
"Let me know if your intent is the latter, I do not wanna waste my time posting a cleaning procedure if you're not going to do it." --You mean like the waste of time when you call me at work at the machine shop to get info to give to another shop to do your cylinder head?? >:(
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On the giles pump was the accel cable adjusted for it? I had to take about an inch so I could even get it to full over my other pump. I think it was just the brackets being different.
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Did the fuel filter fail?
I hope you cleaned your tank well
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QUOTE: "Sorry for the lack of reply-last I checked the forum was down.
The culprit was a bad barrel of oil. There WAS rust + crud in the pump. (My old pump looked good inside-so its a batch problem -not an VO in general problem.)
What made the pump to zoom was the fuel pin? ( The small pin that rides on the ramp of the LDA pin.) It was stiff + not sliding freely.
I installed my old Atl. compensated pump-moved the vent fitting to below the the diaphram + a fitting giving boost above it. Works good-I actaully prefer its manners at around town traffic speeds. It will only make 8-10 psi boost with my foot down though.
One thing I noticed-my gas pedal doesnt travel as far as with the Giles pump-I wonder if thats an adjustment thats was made to it-it seems the WOT stop screw IS backed out more on the Giles pump.
Oh well-gives me an excuse to buy a ultrasonic cleaner now.
"Let me know if your intent is the latter, I do not wanna waste my time posting a cleaning procedure if you're not going to do it." --You mean like the waste of time when you call me at work at the machine shop to get info to give to another shop to do your cylinder head?? "
Since you pulled the pump, my cleaning procedure with the pump in the engine is not needed. You can do a much better job with an ultrasonic cleaner with a disassembled pump.
As for wasting your time I thought we discussed it and it was ok with you that I bring the head to a shop that also had the proper pressure testing equipment but was 25 miles away instead of the 100 miles and a $6 toll to your shop? Didn't know you were sore about that. That explains why you didn't return my pm.
Getting back on topic. Do you have any pics of the rust and schmutz? What went wrong with the batch? I think it is important for you and everyone who runs on wvo to understand what happened and hopefully prevent it from happening again. Schmutz is easily cleaned with solvent but rust is a much more serious issue and I am sure you know this.
You said you had your LDA screw backed all the way out, I believe that is maximum boost. Could backing that screw all the way out partially contribute to the run away by casuing that pin to stick? I have a turbo pump apart (that I am studying) and I see that pin you are talking about. It acts on the governor through a lever.