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General Information => General => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on March 11, 2012, 09:01:37 pm
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I have lost yet another rear inner bearing..
Due to? You guessed it, running dry. Had a little bit of play in both sides earlier last week, pulled the wheels and tightened them both up to within specifications. Didn't bother to pull the drums (time constraint) as they spun free and easy, and I had just serviced them several months ago.
The driver side inner was just completely dry pretty much, you could tell it was over heated and run without lube. I am pretty certain I ran a quality grease in there, and I packed the hell out of the bearings.
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Failed inner seal or loose grease spindle cap? That's the only thing I can immediately think of.
Is it only the D/S inner that does this? Maybe you have a ridge worn on that spindle's seal surface that's either eating the seal or not allowing the seal to completely contact the surface, letting grease escape little by little over time.
Or is it that the grease just walks itself out of the bearing cages into between the bearings in the drum area?
What bearings and seals are you using?
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The sealing surface looks intact and ok. The seal does seem to have a good fit on there. The grease is walking off the inner bearing and ending up in the drum. Which is weird, cause i loaded the drums up too before i put them on.
The cap also was a tight sealed fit.
I honestly don't know what brand bearings or seal.. thats not true.. i got them from Parry's.. and they sell SKF bearings, some OEM seal as well.
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I had 2 pex bearings from autohaus do that, but I wasn't using the best grease either.
Could be the things Crazyandy has said, and also the stub axle could be bad. The stub, especially after overheating it may not be holding the inner race tight. I have before took a punch and put a peen on the stub axle very carefully to make sure it isn't out of round, but holds the race in place. That is not in the Bentley, but it did the trick, I wouldn't reccomend it unless you understand fully. If you don't do it right it will make a flat spot that will trash the bearings in no time. I now have a slip fit bearing and sleeve retaining compound in rite lock RT-09 that holds things like this.
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Hmm. This has happened twice to me on this side alone.. Both times the inner race was stuck to the stub.. Do we assume a tight fit? I will check the new bearing on the stub by itself first and see what is up.
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Or you could swap to a sealed rear bearing setup.....but goodluck finding parts lol
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4358337-polo-ibiza-stub-axle-on-a-golf-mk1-to-mk3-guide
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are you using high temp wheel bearing grease?
and are you packing the bearings AND hub full of grease when you replace the bearings?
whats your bearing packing procedure?
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Or you could swap to a sealed rear bearing setup.....but goodluck finding parts lol
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4358337-polo-ibiza-stub-axle-on-a-golf-mk1-to-mk3-guide
that is what i'm talking about!!
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I do not know what kind of grease was in the grease gun when I used it at the time.. unfortunately. I want to say it wasn't the right stuff and that is what happened..
I am now using quality high temp wheel bearing grease in my gun for everything.
I packed the siht out of my bearings when I did them last, all the grease walked off an ended up in the middle of the drum.. Lesson learned the hard way. The only real way to learn eh? lol
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you get so many odd issues... :P
future input.. if you have to retighten the rear nut.. something is WRONG... that should never need to be done ever... only when you remove the drum...
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Odd issues of driving an Mk1 as a daily.
Its a damn good thing I can fix stupid stuff on the side of the road like an amature McGyver.
Well when they take some more torque on the nut what is it that is happening? The bearings have shifted in their races??
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ive dailed a mk1 or b3 passat since 89...... same wheel bearings in them all... NEVER have i had to "retighten" a rear nut between brakes UNLESS it eats a bearing... think ive ate 2 in all those years at that...
drydean was taken over by castrol... and red penzoil are the only 2 greases ive used in all this time.. AND fag bearings... i use a metal seal from federal mogual (sp??) as vw rubber ones suck arss and fall out..
your doin something wrong if this common issue
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Last two failures were from running dry and over heating. I guess my grease wasn't the right stuff. I have learned mastah, high temp bearing grease will be used from now on.
They are SKF bearings, and SKF metal seals.
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How tight are you making them?
So that I can still just move the keyed washer dealio. Which I believe is per the manual? Or so I have read.
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IMO the bearings are barely adequate for a go-kart. I've had some good loads in my caddy and I was scared to death driving it. Smoked an inner once and had all kinds of fun trying to heat the race with a propane torch alongside the road it the rain. If your bearing goes on easily and then has to be hammered off then it probably spun and welded itself to the spindle. That will happen when the rollers seize. Once it's spun, the tolerances are toast. I don't like the peening idea as it introduces stress risers and creates the possibility of cracks. Mine has some marks from the disaster and I know I'm on borrowed time. Locktite has some green "bearing retaining" sealant that is specifically made to fill the gap. Kind of wonder if the surface the seal rides on is worn/damaged. Could be eating up your seal and by-by grease? There's a toy called speedy sleeve that's .000X" thick and goes over the bad area and makes a new surface. I've had to re-adjust mine a bunch of times too. Grease is OK though. An idiosyncrasy?
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IMO the bearings are barely adequate for a go-kart. I've had some good loads in my caddy and I was scared to death driving it. Smoked an inner once and had all kinds of fun trying to heat the race with a propane torch alongside the road it the rain. If your bearing goes on easily and then has to be hammered off then it probably spun and welded itself to the spindle. That will happen when the rollers seize. Once it's spun, the tolerances are toast. I don't like the peening idea as it introduces stress risers and creates the possibility of cracks. Mine has some marks from the disaster and I know I'm on borrowed time. Locktite has some green "bearing retaining" sealant that is specifically made to fill the gap. Kind of wonder if the surface the seal rides on is worn/damaged. Could be eating up your seal and by-by grease? There's a toy called speedy sleeve that's .000X" thick and goes over the bad area and makes a new surface. I've had to re-adjust mine a bunch of times too. Grease is OK though. An idiosyncrasy?
Funny I'm getting paranoid is someone erasing my comments? I don't think that you are correct about the inadequacy of the bearings, after all some last 20 years with no problem, maybe it is a manufacturing issue or incorrect use. A roller bearing has far more loading capacity than aball bearing equivalent, so they are bigger than they look.
Where did my peening comment go to that you are referring to? If you are right about the stress created burp oops belch, then why aren't you worried about the threaded parts snapping off things?
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IMO the bearings are barely adequate for a go-kart. I've had some good loads in my caddy and I was scared to death driving it. Smoked an inner once and had all kinds of fun trying to heat the race with a propane torch alongside the road it the rain. If your bearing goes on easily and then has to be hammered off then it probably spun and welded itself to the spindle. That will happen when the rollers seize. Once it's spun, the tolerances are toast. I don't like the peening idea as it introduces stress risers and creates the possibility of cracks. Mine has some marks from the disaster and I know I'm on borrowed time. Locktite has some green "bearing retaining" sealant that is specifically made to fill the gap. Kind of wonder if the surface the seal rides on is worn/damaged. Could be eating up your seal and by-by grease? There's a toy called speedy sleeve that's .000X" thick and goes over the bad area and makes a new surface. I've had to re-adjust mine a bunch of times too. Grease is OK though. An idiosyncrasy?
I too think they could have used a bit better sized bearing, but this one is sufficient. The other rear bearing in our cars is the same one used in every VW since the start of beetle production. It is used in the 020 trans and I am sure if you look in the newer MK4 and up they have continued to use it somewhere. I think the main issue as with all things is the origin of manufacture.
8v- I still think your race surface is hurt. If you slide just a new bearing on it no drum, it should stick on real tight. If it doesn't I would think it is time to get a new stub. Seems like all my previously owned vw's usually need a new stub, or the bearing and sleeve retainer, but the directions say 24 hour full cure on it. From American made cars I use that procedure of tightening. It differs from the Bentley, so if you can't get it to go this time PM me and I will tell you what I do.
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they also used those bearings on domestic cars.. think a vega and such used them...
how tight do i make the nut... tighten all the way up.. then back off where the cotter key goes thru the castle piece 2 notches... aka usually end up in the middle of 1 hole.. so back off that 1/2 and 1 more after that...
weight... i have the stupid exceed car mfg of weight for long periods of time at speed... so i will no tsay that is a issue... the other week i took over 1200lbs of brake rotors to the scrap yard in my toaster... its rated at 1000lb carrying... did not even flintch...
i gotta go buy 3 55gal drums... all my bio fuel storage is taken up with oil i need to convert... but i am in negotiations on doing a major amount of work on a car for some bio in trade.. with the $5+ commin ill do it for 150 gal+ some cash.. and ill use the toaster as transport too.. 150 gal x 7lbs per gal = a hell of alot.. LOL.. for ~250miles at 70mph+ i know the old girl will love me still.. i may even discuss with him the material to convert my 120 gal of oil i have here to convert it too into the deal.. me will be riding free all summer... :D
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The stub, especially after overheating it may not be holding the inner race tight. I have before took a punch and put a peen on the stub axle very carefully to make sure it isn't out of round, but holds the race in place.
Mark, no one is deleting your comments. It was a reference to a post Lucas made about putting a peen in the stub.
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How tight are you making them?
So that I can still just move the keyed washer dealio. Which I believe is per the manual? Or so I have read.
i run them a little looser than i would like, and they last PERFECT..
and, if you are using the wrong grease, it will get THICKER after you heat cycle it about a thousand times..
im ALMOST thinking you are running your bearings too tight..
we need to come up with an in. lb. torque spec for these cars.. cause the spec is definitely less than 5 ft lbs..
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^ Yes. I used to overtighten as well, but it seems these bearings love to run loose. A friend of mine forgot to put the cotter key on one once. He noticed it the next time he jacked it up and the tire was a bit wobbley. He didn't remember if he even tightened it past hand tight or not. Did the same as CRSMP5 and me on the adjustment there, didn't even repack it, and it went forever. Too tight and they seem to die in short order.
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I run mine a bit loose and they seem to do fine keeping the grease. I can move that washer with a screw driver real easy. I think you are on to something with the too tight ain't right thing.
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Weird, when I was just in my learning pants not a few years ago.. I was told that you were to tighten it up and then with fair effort be able to move the washer.
I feel that any looser and there WILL be physical play with my rear tires, that I just cannot have.
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if you do not have the littlest amount of play... then its too tight.. im not saying sloppy loose.. but a titch mm or so feel of wobble with wheel on
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Yes my wheels have an ever so slight wiggle to them when on jack stands. Have to get on both sides of the wheel and rock it but it does giggle. Any tighter on the wheel nut, to get it to the next alignment of the cotter key and then I can't move the washer. Seems to do great set up like that. Once on the ground you can't get the wheel to shake or shimmy, rattle but does roll.
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They are SKF bearings, and SKF metal seals.
on one of the honda goldwing sites im a memeber on they where warning people about SKF. there was a company out of chaina makeing knock offs that where not lasting....you couldnt tell them from the real thing...they where saying to use timcin or FAG if youcan to avoid the problem....if i can find the fourm i was on ill try to repost it on here....you may have gotten in to a bad batch of bearings tho....
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http://www.skf.com/skf/news/html/popup.jsp?lang=en&contentId=872305
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf_us/home/news?contentId=879552
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/engineering-design-problems/2007/04/bogus-bearings-look-more-real.html
heres a few things i found on a quick google search
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If you used grease from a grease gun then you'll kill the bearing.
Buy wheel bearing grease. It may seem silly to buy a tub of special grease that will sit on the shelf for years just for one application but once you get your fingers in it you'll see what the difference is. I had some quakerstate stuff that you'd swear was full of fibre cuz the polymer chains were so long. When I pulled a gob apart it looked like hair or something but it was all grease.
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First off I don't need your insults or accusations Mark. I don't have the authority to delete anyone's comments even if I wanted to. Second, I am well aware of the increased load carrying capacity of taper-roller bearings v/s ball. That's why V-Dub changed to them in the bug in 1967. I am disappointed that the front axle bearings on the rabbit are balls. Even my old piece of crap Aspire had rollers. With the mighty power of our diesels, twice as much rubber and "spirited" driving styles, the stock bearings are hard pressed. Only got 20K out of one. I use to think that SKF was a pretty good manufacturer so I was pleased when I found them at Auto Zone which is generally considered to be the Walmart of parts stores. Now I know why. I'm using MOS2 disc brake bearing grease same as every other bearing I've done and have had zero failures. Everyone knows that too tight of pre-load on a taper roller will smoke it quickly. Too loose will hammer it and decrease accuracy. Finding that sweet spot is what I think this posting is all about. The old bug front balls were set up with a dial indicator and had a specified end play. Maybe the same here? I initially adjusted mine with the slightest amount of play and thought that they were set for life. After awhile I noticed the rear starting to drift and the wheels bouncing around 90 mph. Checking it out revealed that they had loosened up. Since everything was seated properly and the nut & cotter hadn't moved, I'm thinking that wear is the culprit. A sad comment on today's quality. I realize that today's econoboxes have skateboard bearings which may be good enough for normal driving and loads but it seem logical that since VW decided to put bigger drums on the caddy that they might have considered bigger bearings too. Now we need to figure out who makes the best ones. I'll try to get a Timkin or Fafnir cross reference.
The danger of a stress crack depends on the location and load imposed. Spindle shoulder, not so good. Threaded end, not so much.
Edit: There will be no swearing at people as abusive name calling. I am a little more lenient on actual swearing. lol.
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Somewhere I remember that we should strive to use Timken bearings. Might have been that other forum thread years back.
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If you used grease from a grease gun then you'll kill the bearing.
Buy wheel bearing grease. It may seem silly to buy a tub of special grease that will sit on the shelf for years just for one application but once you get your fingers in it you'll see what the difference is. I had some quakerstate stuff that you'd swear was full of fibre cuz the polymer chains were so long. When I pulled a gob apart it looked like hair or something but it was all grease.
What if my grease gun was loaded with high temp bearing grease?? ;) It seems like it would be pretty useful in place of normal grease, so I may just use it in my grease gun from now on.
Bentley says to tighten them while rotating the wheel and then loosen until you can move the washer with a light push with a screwdriver.
Will do, thank-you. I don't have a Bentley, I don't feel I need to be spoon fed THAT much lol.
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on non-driven wheels, there is an acceptable amount of play, at .003 - .005"
a bearing will die faster being ran tight, rather than loose..
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A loose bearing doesn't last long either but we aren't talking quantities without mentioning quantities.
Did you put grease on the seal lips?
They need lubed or can get hot.
I have never had a bearing go bad after tightening the bentley way,.. with more than just a little twisting pressure on the screwdriver.
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I do believe my conclusion was fully supported by the incorrect grease used.
I had a bearing run dry and subsequently overheat and expand the bearing cage. Causing play and probably a spun race.
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A loose bearing doesn't last long either but we aren't talking quantities without mentioning quantities.
Did you put grease on the seal lips?
They need lubed or can get hot.
I have never had a bearing go bad after tightening the bentley way,.. with more than just a little twisting pressure on the screwdriver.
the rear of these cars way like 400 lbs.. and i meant that they will last longer loose, than too tight..
i dont mean like overly sloppy loose, i just mean that the spindle nut isnt CRANKED down tight..
you can have 3-5 thousandths play at the tire, and still have the bearing last JUST FINE..
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The Bentley instructions for bearings have never made sense to me. I've had lots of tapered roller bearing training from various manufacturers (Timken, SKF, NTN) due to their importance in our products, and we always preload them. I can't find the exact graph, but a preload up to a certain point increases the life, but once you exceed that, failure occurs very rapidly. If you are going to err, a little on the loose side is safer that a little too tight. What I can't understand about the VW method is how loose the Bentley tells you to make them. I'm used to North American cars, and there is always a torque value on the nut - effective preload.
Per http://motionsystemdesign.com/mag/adjusting_tapered_bearings/ (http://motionsystemdesign.com/mag/adjusting_tapered_bearings/):"Improper adjustment can cause either excessive tightness or looseness. Tightness results in excessive contact between bearing rollers and raceway, leading to higher temperatures, potential excessive loading, and premature bearing failure. On the other hand, excessive looseness can result in improper loading of bearing rollers, leading to more roller sliding or skidding and eventual premature failure. Looseness also affects application accuracy and noise."
http://www.cpannut.com/newFacts.html (http://www.cpannut.com/newFacts.html)
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?lang=en&maincatalogue=1&newlink=1_0_83 (http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?lang=en&maincatalogue=1&newlink=1_0_83)
Bearings can be overgreased, and doing so will lead to rapid overheating and subsequent expulsion of grease due to increased pressure.
As previously mentioned, greasing the seal lip can help extend it's life. Our seal supplier says that lubrication during assembly can almost double the life of the seal even though the grease will be expelled during operation.