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General Information => Upgrades (non engine related ) => Topic started by: rodpaslow on March 01, 2012, 05:32:37 pm
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Has anyone ever tried simple mans independent rear suspension? I'm thinking about cutting the twist beam roughly in the center and adding a pivot point that will work in the center of it(either two or 4 sealed bearings & shaft in the approximate pivot center of the twist beam) and adding a sway bar. Would this work? This could be relatively simple , almost a bolt in...
I know I've seen on vortex using another cars front subframe and adding that, but that's major, major rework!
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I am glad that 1500 miles of ocean will be between me and the likely result. ;)
It sounds too much like an early beetle with the engine at the other end. Follow the link for why VW designed the rear beam without a swing axle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xwc54G2Ur8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xwc54G2Ur8)
Please watch as it is a classic! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Your idea is somewhat contradictory. You would cut it into two halves to work independently but then put a sway bar on to make it act like a torsion beam...
VW did a pretty good job designing the rear suspension for what it is. It acts like indepent with a huge sway bar at a fraction of the manufacturing costs. People are still trying to stiffen the rear beams up from what they are with sway bars etc
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Volkswagen used this design for a very very long time. Also all the built up Volkswagen's running auto-cross or any other race formation they still use the stock rear beam.
There is a ton of play between sides of the rear suspension, if you dont believe me. Remove your shock assemblies with the rear end up off the ground and see how much you can flex the two sides from one another. Can probably get almost a foot of "twist" out of the beam.
It is pretty much already an IRS. Definitely would not classify as a solid rear axle.
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thats one of the best vids ever.. i was worried when the loaded convert came rollin round.. best 8min ever..
p.s. let your kids see it.. may make hem think why a seat belt was invented.. as well.. no way those people used them..
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thats one of the best vids ever.. i was worried when the loaded convert came rollin round.. best 8min ever..
p.s. let your kids see it.. may make hem think why a seat belt was invented.. as well.. no way those people used them..
Not with the 5 or more people flying out of the car upon rolling it.. Or the one chick who nearly died because she fell out the window! omg! lol
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xwc54G2Ur8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xwc54G2Ur8)
Please watch as it is a classic! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Painful, so many squished up classics, 2002's, mantas, notchbacks...no likey.
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Great vid, I see a lot of the old beetles got the worst of it, would roll without too much trouble. Not too many porshe's or BMW's rolling if any.
I was just wondering if the rear beam would be easy to modify, as I travel over some pretty crappy road for about 10 mi on my daily drive and I know what's in the car is pretty good, but what one tire does, does somewhat affect the other because they are tied together with a flex beam. I drive another car, a Honda civic with independent on all 4 corners and I can tell the difference.
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I drive another car, a Honda civic with independent on all 4 corners and I can tell the difference.
As opposed to a redneck honda civic? I think most are well aware that honda civics are from Japan.
Are your struts blown?
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Watch the racial slurs there home boy.
Are your struts blown?
I ask the same, I don't see my rears as copying the other.
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have you guys ever seen how much flex is built into the rear twist beam of a VW?
there be LOTS.. you can jack one rear tire almost all the way up into the fender before the other even starts picking up off the ground.. prolly about a foot of twist at the stub axles.. its amazing how flexy that stock beam is..
when i had bad SHOCKS in the back of any of my cars, they like to play copy the other side.. hit a bump with the left rear, and the right rear would jump too..
so yea, check your SHOCKS..
the front has STRUTS, the back has SHOCKS.
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There is a ton of play between sides of the rear suspension, if you dont believe me. Remove your shock assemblies with the rear end up off the ground and see how much you can flex the two sides from one another. Can probably get almost a foot of "twist" out of the beam.
LoL
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A few years ago I read on one of these forums about someone doing exactly what the OP asked about. Not sure how it worked though.
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i've seen this discussed alot and even done before.
im not a race car driver or an engineer or anything, but in my opinion it's completely pointless, the torsion beam is just as good as any independent rear end, especially on fwd it's just there to go along for the ride. my biggest argument for it, is look at any car with an irs, they all use a sway bar, and for performance they put a much bigger rear sway bar on, why not have ur whole rear suspension be one big sway bar? i remember when they first came out with the kia forte koup, and all the dumb dumbs were saying that its nice that it has good hp but a shame it doesn't have a true irs. the car that holds the record for the fastest fwd lap time around the nurburgring is the renault megane, and it has a rear torsion beam suspension. many people will argue irs is better, and sure even on paper i'd think it would be since theyd seem control the geometry better, but in real life its just not true. its funny also, look at the mustang vs current camaro and challenger, mustang has the solid axle with multi link, camaro and challenger have irs, and every magazine i have rear says the mustang does circles around the other two
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i've seen this discussed alot and even done before.
im not a race car driver or an engineer or anything, but in my opinion it's completely pointless, the torsion beam is just as good as any independent rear end, especially on fwd it's just there to go along for the ride. my biggest argument for it, is look at any car with an irs, they all use a sway bar, and for performance they put a much bigger rear sway bar on, why not have ur whole rear suspension be one big sway bar? i remember when they first came out with the kia forte koup, and all the dumb dumbs were saying that its nice that it has good hp but a shame it doesn't have a true irs. the car that holds the record for the fastest fwd lap time around the nurburgring is the renault megane, and it has a rear torsion beam suspension. many people will argue irs is better, and sure even on paper i'd think it would be since theyd seem control the geometry better, but in real life its just not true. its funny also, look at the mustang vs current camaro and challenger, mustang has the solid axle with multi link, camaro and challenger have irs, and every magazine i have rear says the mustang does circles around the other two
dont mean to stir the pot, but..
ive heard the EXACT OPPOSITE..
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I've got reatively new shocks, less than a year old. I don't think that's the issue. However the springs I changed to were a higher spring rate and higher initial load holding than the ones these replaced in the rear. I think this may be part of the problem because now it seem the back end has an effect on what the front end is doing.
I find this strange, because on my jetta I have coilovers on all sides and on some roads (the coilovers are much higher springrate and load from stock) this does much better that the car I currently drive. I think I might need to change the rear springs to a softer spring and that may solve this issue.
Thanks for all the replies - from this and some of the reading I've done - I tend to agree, sounds like twist beam RS is better is more respects than one.
Is the MK3 different than the MK2 twist beam? I know the track is a wee bit wider, but did anything else change? It seem a bit better than the MK2 ride as well.
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I've got reatively new shocks, less than a year old. I don't think that's the issue. However the springs I changed to were a higher spring rate and higher initial load holding than the ones these replaced in the rear. I think this may be part of the problem because now it seem the back end has an effect on what the front end is doing.
I find this strange, because on my jetta I have coilovers on all sides and on some roads (the coilovers are much higher springrate and load from stock) this does much better that the car I currently drive. I think I might need to change the rear springs to a softer spring and that may solve this issue.
Thanks for all the replies - from this and some of the reading I've done - I tend to agree, sounds like twist beam RS is better is more respects than one.
Is the MK3 different than the MK2 twist beam? I know the track is a wee bit wider, but did anything else change? It seem a bit better than the MK2 ride as well.
the beam is just wider..
and the reason a mk3 rides better, is because the car is heavier..
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dont mean to stir the pot, but..
ive heard the EXACT OPPOSITE..
Don't lie, you do mean to stir the pot. In all seriousness the challenger is out of the question it's purely a boulevard cruiser, there is nothing sporting about it except 0-60 times, I haven't driven the new camaro.
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I've got reatively new shocks, less than a year old. I don't think that's the issue. However the springs I changed to were a higher spring rate and higher initial load holding than the ones these replaced in the rear. I think this may be part of the problem because now it seem the back end has an effect on what the front end is doing.
I find this strange, because on my jetta I have coilovers on all sides and on some roads (the coilovers are much higher springrate and load from stock) this does much better that the car I currently drive. I think I might need to change the rear springs to a softer spring and that may solve this issue.
Thanks for all the replies - from this and some of the reading I've done - I tend to agree, sounds like twist beam RS is better is more respects than one.
Is the MK3 different than the MK2 twist beam? I know the track is a wee bit wider, but did anything else change? It seem a bit better than the MK2 ride as well.
Sounds like the problem isn't with the rear it is with the front. On your coilover car all the suspension was upgraded. On your other car it sounds like you just did the rear. If the front is squishy, like my MK4 is all the way around, the rear will have a more profound impact on the handling characteristics. If you match the front spring with the rear spring it will probably solve your issue.
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You are correct. The Mk2 i drive looked like a rear drive car as the springs were 'sagging' in the back. so i replaced them and the shocks; and what you are suggesting sounds like it would fix my issue. This is my beater car, daily driver during the winter during excessive salt season in Canada. However upgrading the front springs and shocks isn't too costly and will need to get some once spring rolls around and salt season ends!