VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: Baron VonZeppelin on February 20, 2012, 11:29:06 pm
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I don't have VagCom, or know anyone locally who does.
Doing my first TDI belt Tuesday or Wednesday.
Have come to find out it might can be verified with dial indicator in same fashion as we do on IDI's - with an upsized adapter, for my IDI adapter. lol
Anyone know the specs ?
Thanks Mucho Grande
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Just did the first one of these (and last) myself on an ALH.. Truth be told I mark and prayed on the pump timing.. :-[ Had I thought it though I would have checked where the timing was at for some variety of reference point,before I removed the belt.. IF you can get a dial indicator jigged up on it you should check and report back with your findings ;).. If for nothing else to compare with the specs I posed in Jeremy's thread..
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Absolutely will do that Max. That was my hope of intention to get some verification of actual VW spec. And compare/verify the before and after on this Tbelt job.
I made an adapter from Vincents tip in the thread you found - right after i read it. lol
Good to go with it tomorrow.
I'll put some more stuff of that info from that thread in here for future referencers too, in just a while.
Thanks again Man for hunting that down.
Awesome !
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This is info posted by The Caveman in November 2009
" Tech bulletin group 23 #97-03 from august 15 1997 mentions that it can be set at .7mm + or - .05 mm.
Problem is that the size of the fitting on the pump isn't the same as an IDI pump. The early pumps [and the tool] have a thread of 8mm with a 1.0 pitch where as the TDI [at least the 1Z passat i was working on ] has a thread of 10 mm with a 1.0 pitch.
I will make a tool adaptor in the future , but at least there is some sort of spec for it. "
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In same thread by The Caveman -
Vincent Waldon suggested making an 8mm x 10mm adapter from an old Mk1-Early Mk2 oil/coolant sensor , or an old brake fitting.
So i made one from an old coolant sensor.
Its almost like its in the design for it to be converted into an adapter.
Even inside the bottom its concaved to a point like a ready-made center punching for the drill bit.
I stepped up bits about 6 times from 2mm to 6.5mm then ran a tap through it.
The interior body requires no drilling/boring.
Maybe can't tell from fuzzy pic, but about 85-90% of the piece is threaded by the tap. Only the uppermost part is not tapped with new threads.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/33wm9sw.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/91c38p.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/152z3x1.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2zozo1j.jpg)
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Shortly after i made the adapter -
member "410" informed us that the end caps were swappable from an IDI pump to a TDI pump.
So if you have to, or need to, you can swap one in from an IDI pump and use your pre-exisitng 8mm adapter for your IDI dial indicator set-up.
Options are nice, choose your flavor. :)
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1Z and AHU will share same timing specs so which or whether isn't critical to that ..... but here is something else i found that i'd like to determine.
On the data tags for this 98 Jetta TDI - built Nov 97 in Mexaeiouco
its shows engine code as 1Z .... with AMC code tranny.
It may just be some of the bean counters were slow to update the stamping/printing lingo on these, to AHU status.
Or maybe not. idunno
Can't see any stamping in the area where Mk1 and Mk2 block codes are stamped. It doesn't even look to be a machined pad.
Anyone know where to find engine code on these 1Z / AHU engines ?
Any other 98 owners who can share their build date and data tag engine code ?
Thanks for any details or significa
(http://i42.tinypic.com/34xhogw.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/353cfsy.jpg)
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Had to remove more gadgets and stuffs from the engine to get decent access to rear of Inj Pump. Then my block shaped adapter was too wide to fit and thread strait into the timing port hole.
Not enough clearance within the Injection Line bend.
So i reprofiled my adapter block.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/282dier.jpg)
Went around to #1 TDC about 5 times just to be certain of the reading.
Got 0.61 - 0.615 each time.
My trusty 6mm allen wrench that always worked on A1 A2 crank pulley bolts - doesn't feel like it can handle these. Instead of breaking it - i went to 4 places and finally found a 6mm allen bit socket.
Called it a night.
Last job must have red loctited these bolts or something.
Gonna have at them tomorrow, and heat them some first.
Will check and post the dial gauge specs again after the new belt goes on - when it gets on there. lol maybe tomorrow
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I have read the dial indicator setting will get you close on pump timing but you should still fine tune with vcds when you get a chance.
On the block code, there have been reports of 1z's in jettas of varying vintage but also some reports of build tag being wrong!The code is roughly the same place as the idi, just look lower on block. Where the idi is right at headgasket level, the tdi is down by the two bolt holes about 1" lower usually a hose in the way you need to nudge to see it good iirc.
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Where is cetane city NC ;)? Maybe you are close to somebody with a vag-com cable. I'm in the far northeast corner of NC but have a friend with my old DZSL SLC Corrado near Greensboro with a cable. There is also NCdubs.net where I'm certain somebody might be interested in helping out. I'd love to see how the old school method of timing compares to vag-com
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LoL - CetaneCity is my little village/hobby shop in outskirt Asheboro.
Finding somebody on NCdubs in GSO area is my hope.
Or go to Tom's place in Kville on a Wed GTG.
Would be great to hook up with the guy you know around GSO.
Especially since he has DZL specific experience.
Thats the kind of person i'm hoping to source.
Got the belt installed last night.
Ran through the dial process again about 5 times for certainty.
Now getting 0.425 - 0.43
Took a lot of stuff out from under the hood for clearer access, and to do some catch up cleaning/detailing by hand.
"Should" have it buttoned back up enough tonight to start it up - Weather Permitting - sketchy weather forecast. I'm working outdoors on this one.
Wind is whooping hard - too windy to have the hood up right now.
If it won't crank up, or runs poorly
i'll manually reset it to 0.70mm
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There's gotta be someone in the GSO area with a VAG-COM...we probably need a thread started on NCDubs saying who has a VAG-COM and where they are. Might be useful.
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I agree Jess, that would be very useful.
But some/most folks with VagCom - might not want to be quite that "useful". lol
Worth a try - what section would you think would be best to post it in ?
Maybe they could specify if they request a service fee or some form of imbursement.
And what type car/engine they have most expertise in.
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If your close to apex or wake forest when i'm in town, i scan for beer ;D Even cheap beer, very cheap beer!
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Thanks BigVW.
If all else fails closer by - i'll pack some Michelobs and come by.
Got all the stuff back together today.
Car cranks and runs. The 0.43 readings had me concerned if the computer could compensate that much. And anything with this many gizmos always makes me edgy.
Still definitely want to VagCom the timing, and the EGR, and whatever else is simple to verify/correct while its plugged in.
Haven't test driven it yet. Some other things to still do on it first.
But before, it had a lil stronger diesel scent from exhaust than i would expect on a TDI. And its still about the same on that.
Did verify its AHU by timing cover decal - and decal is dated Oct 22 1997 - car body built Nov 97 - so thats all good.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/6gd00y.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/e828pe.jpg)
Snow screen dealio in airbox intake port was past due.
Covered it in dishwashing liquid and let that soak a while.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/1tv8ya.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2d9egiq.jpg)
Intake will definitely be coming off after the EGR spec is reset.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/b4jjbb.jpg)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oet4qWeZuYA
;D
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fwiw, albeit an awesome way to do it ;)..
It will not work so well on the AHU manifold as the EGR valve is integral to the manifold and does not come off like the ALH one does.
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As for the computer compensating tolerance- it will actually run the car- though not as well as it should even a tooth off on pump in either direction!
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Libby, my Internet service is 14.4 kbps. (free)
I can't do youtubes or videos. Unless i want to wait around an hour or 2 or 3 for it to load.
What was it about ? Cleaning of the Intake ?
BigVW is right , this AHU is integral.
Not like the ALH unit that Wolfsburged posted in his thread.
And i know Lib has worked with all of them, so what was the youtube about - bound to be applicable.
I like the block-off plates WolfB had made for his - they might be the same as AHU.
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Ahem, 8v was correct about the integral EGR. ;). lol. It was a video of some guy doing an AHU intake though.. so I guess it is possible lol.
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It's the 'flame cleaning method'. Use a propane torch to heat the intake up and then blow compressed air in while it all burns off. All the usual disclaimers apply. ;)
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Lots of beer prior to??
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Would it help to leave the engine running while i torch the intake ?
Or wait until most of it burns out before cranking it ?
juskiddin :-[
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The flame cleaning is done with the intake removed. I've never done it myself, but I've heard of quite a few people using that method and I haven't heard of anyone damaging the intake in the process.
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The flame cleaning is done with the intake removed. I've never done it myself, but I've heard of quite a few people using that method and I haven't heard of anyone damaging the intake in the process.
Yes of course, I guess if one were to give knowledge that the EGR was in fact there.. it could be done with cuation.
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Dang it guys, wish I would have seen this sooner, I have vag-com I live in mocksville. Im currently doing a timing belt on a Alh at the moment also
Casio Commando using tap talk
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And about the cleaning with map gas and shop air is the absolute bes way to clean a intake, ive done it probably20 times without fail/damage you get rid of bugs also !!
Casio Commando using tap talk
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I like the idea of being able to set the timing mechanically, but seems to me like more work than its worth. If the timing is good to begin with, and you have the proper lock tools, you should be able to replace the belt with out messing the timing up. It should at least start and run well enough to get you to a VAG-COM...The actual timing changes with fuel and engine temperature...Setting the Injection Timing - Injector Pump Mechanical Adjustment - A VW specific scan tool such as VAG-COM is required for this procedure. It cannot be done by any other method. The mechanical adjustment technique used for previous generations of VW diesels, which used a mechanical fuel pump without electronic control, is not suitable for the electronically controlled TDI injector pump.
With the engine warmed up and idling, connect the diagnostic tool, and select the engine control module. At this point, one of two different procedures is necessary, depending upon whether you have the proper factory service manual for your particular vehicle.
If you have the factory service manual, select "Measuring Blocks", group 0, then select "Basic Settings". The glow plug indicator lamp will begin flashing at this time (this is normal). Do NOT forget to go into "Basic Settings" because this procedure is completely invalid if measurements are taken outside of "basic settings". Take note of the 2nd and 9th numbers in the display. Locate the chart in the factory service manual which shows the proper relationship between these two numbers. Go across the chart with the 9th number then up the chart with the 2nd number and make sure it is within the shaded area. It has been found through experience that these engines have better cold starting characteristics if the setting is within the upper half of the shaded area. If it is good ... don't do anything further. If the second number is below the recommended range, you need to make a mechanical "advance" adjustment (see below). If the second number is above the recommended range, you need to make a mechanical "retard" adjustment (see below).
If you don't have the factory service manual, select "Measuring Blocks", and go to group 4. Do NOT use "basic settings" for this method. The displays show the requested injection timing, the actual measured injection timing, and the duty cycle of the advance solenoid. At warm idle in neutral, requested timing should be between 0.4 and 2.0 degrees BTDC. If the actual timing is not more than roughly 3.0 degrees BTDC, and the duty cycle of the advance solenoid is not more than 10%, the timing is good ... don't do anything further. If actual timing is more than 3.0 degrees BTDC, you need to make a mechanical "retard" adjustment. If the duty cycle is more than 10%, you need to make a mechanical "advance" adjustment.
If you have an A3 or B4, you need to rotate the body of the injector pump "forward" to retard the timing and "backward" to advance the timing. Stop the engine. Remove the upper timing belt cover. Rotate the engine by hand (shifting trans into 5th gear and pushing the whole car works) such that the two nuts at the rear and bottom of the injector pump flange can be reached through the access holes in the pump pulley. Loosen these two nuts by 1 turn, loosen the bolt at the top front of this flange 1 turn (accessed from outside, not within the pulley). Loosen the bolt located at the opposite end of the pump below the four injector lines. With a 17mm wrench, loosen by 1/2 turn the injector lines on the end of the pump. Now you can rotate the entire pump housing in the required direction (make VERY SMALL adjustments) then tighten and reassemble everything and recheck the timing.
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Thanks for the data and tips GTiTDi.
Corey - i might be getting in touch with you soon about some VagCom !
Most of what i have been doing is gathering before/after data and establishing some factoids and baselines that might help me and others who don't have direct or easy access to VagCom.
Believe i'm going to go ahead and put it up to .65 - .70 zone.
I have all the locks and used them as always.
It changed from .62 with slack set tensioner and previous belt - to .43 with new belt and proper set tension.
This was what i was trying to watch for / observe.
Getting it closer to the .70 range now- might save a lot of time when it finally gets plugged into VagCom.
I'll take the reading again after it gets set with V-C.
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If you get out to Raleigh, we can give you a hand with VAG-COM. We'll be doing the timing on our TDI hopefully this weekend!
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Got the car Vag-Com'd this evening.
To take a quick step backwards - i did go back with my dial indicator and reset the Injection Timing to 0.685mm (from 0.43 where it landed after new belt components).
This worked to a fantastic advantage in my particular scenario.
It hit the VC graph right smack up on the Blue Graph Line.
Maybe just a frog hair short of Dead Center Perfect.
Frog hair at the very most.
So no wrenches or adjustments were involved - making things very quick and simple for the Vag-Com guru and involving less of his time - versus if i had needed to wrench and re-adjust/repeat/etc..
By this - i think its safe to say - for those of us less fortunate - 0.70mm will put you right in the middle - or dead on spec.
I'm going to venture to say 0.65mm would put you at bottom of variance near the Yellow Graph Line. And 0.75mm would put you at top of variance near or at the Red Graph Line. If you want to play with it.
I hope this can help someone in the future.
Its definitely going to help me.
Car ran rich - no visible black smoke - but would almost burn your eyes and nose at a stand still when revved if you were behind it.
Strong diesely smell. Way more than a 1.6
IQ was around 2.8
V-C was able to adjust it to 4.2 or 4.4
Fixed.
EGR has been reduced to lowest cycle per TDIclub data.
Turns out the Tube in the ECU is most likely compromised.
Had read about that being common - but that it would throw CEL.
This car has not had any CEL show up.
The other fault shown was the CEL indicator is out . LoL
Likely they pulled the bulb perhaps, at the used car dealer.
I'll fix those things tomorrow or this week.
M-Tech12 said should get more boost and better performance after ECU tube is repaired. That will be sweet. Owner and I were already pretty well pleased with cars performance. 8)
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After reading another post
I might have the relevance of the Red and Yellow lines on the injection timing graph reversed.
So do the math yourself on which color is advanced, and which is retarded.
All else remains the same. ;)
Go for 0.70 mm if you use a dial indicator.
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Yep - hose inside the ECU had a lil split towards most inner end - on underside. Fixed em up. Feels like another 7-10 horses joined the herd.
Maybe this weekend i'll go after the CEL bulb.