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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: overdrivegear on January 25, 2012, 06:48:46 am
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I did a search and didn't see anything that was quite like I'm experiencing, so here's my situation.
(1.6 NA pump)
Was driving along at highway speeds and the car just died like the fuel shutoff solenoid turned off with the key. No mechanical breakage sounds. Went to go turn the car back over and it would not start.
I checked the fuel shutoff solenoid and it's functional. No obstructions in the fuel lines and no bubbles in the fuel lines. I cracked the fuel manifold to the injectors and no fuel comes out. I think maybe the pressure control valve (next to the fuel inlet) may be junked up.
Any other ideas?
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I did a search and didn't see anything that was quite like I'm experiencing, so here's my situation.
(1.6 NA pump)
Was driving along at highway speeds and the car just died like the fuel shutoff solenoid turned off with the key. No mechanical breakage sounds. Went to go turn the car back over and it would not start.
I checked the fuel shutoff solenoid and it's functional. No obstructions in the fuel lines and no bubbles in the fuel lines. I cracked the fuel manifold to the injectors and no fuel comes out. I think maybe the pressure control valve (next to the fuel inlet) may be junked up.
Any other ideas?
PC valve gradually wears.If blocked would raise fuel pressures.So doesn't sound like your issue.
I would recheck solenoid. How did you test it to satisfy yourself that both the solenoid and it's plunger are retracting?
Undo timing bolt, and see if fuel drips out of there, see if more comes out with solenoid on, and cranking engine
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If this was my problem I would be setting it up for a timing check and pull the belt off the IP. I would then crack the injector lines off the back of the pump all of them and cover it with a heavy towel or cloth. Since I have clear lines on the return to tank I would then attach a drill and socket to the front of the IP and spin it up.
Watch for fuel spiting out the back of the check valves. If it isn't check for it returning to the tank. If not then something is preventing it from getting into it and not so much getting out. But if you can indeed cycle fuel back to the tank but nothing is coming out the back then give the accel lever a crack. Spin pump again. Not helping? Then there is a small mesh screen between the low and high side of the pump. If you have some wear going on inside the pump then the screen may be catching it and plugging up just before the solenoid. You might get it to unplug temporarily by blowing backwards into the fuel solenoid opening. But to really solve the problem you will need to take the pump apart and clean it out of what ever is in there.
Could be O ring pieces, metal shavings or dirt if you have taken the inlet off lately.
Best of luck keep us posted up through success of the problem.
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I had a break in the wire to my shutoff solenoid, pretty much happened exactly the way you are describing.
Before messing with timing or anything make sure you have 12V there.
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I agree. I just actually fixed a car two days ago that wouldn't start from a broken wire to the shut off solenoid.. fixed the wire and it was only getting 2-3v, still wouldn't start..
The engine electronics fuse blew under the dash from the wire shorting out. So, I agree with checking for 12v at the solenoid.
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But he said he had a functional solenoid valve. So doesn't that mean he has 12 VDC working for him? Maybe a wiggle check when it is fully installed is in order as he has a test light or meter on it.
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Has happened to me, thought something horrible had happened, it was a faulty connector at the shut-off solenoid. It would work fine most of the time until it vibrated loose again.
This seems to be a common issue.
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Take the solenoid off and pull the pin so that its Full On Manual.
And re-install.
Then test car again.
Will have to choke the engine with clutch/brake in 3rd gear to shut it off -
IF it starts/runs again.
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Update: Tried various tests on the pump and came to the conclusion there was some failure within. Even though I checked the solenoid valve several times, got 12V, checked wire tightness, and tested the coil action outside the car (all successful), the pump was still not passing fuel to the injector lines. I even removed the pin and spring, then re-installed the solenoid to eliminate it completely. Since this car was running on vegetable oil before the failure occurred, I tried priming the pump with diesel by making a vacuum reservoir jar and sucking diesel through the system, collecting the oil in the jar. Didn't work. Made a tool and pulled the pressure-control valve and inspected the action and O-rings. Both appeared fine; the valve operates smoothly and with no apparent obstructions. Removed the fuel intake line and banjo, cleaned, and inspected port for signs of blockage. Negative. The litmus test, however, was pulling the plunger bolt on the side of the pump and feeling with a wooden dowel the plunger as the crank was hand rotated. No movement whatsoever, either at the collar or the hole in the center of the interior.
I suspect the two rubber dogs as seen here (http://gnarlodious.com/vanagon/bosch_pump/-Rebuild#17) have sheared off and, in so doing, are causing the drive shaft to freewheel from the governor drive gear. I also see these are included in a rebuild kit. I guess the next project is to pull the pump off and check it out myself.
Does anyone else have any thoughts or comments?
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The only other clean disconnect I can think of is the high pressure side pump shaft sheared clean off and although the rest of the pump goes around the shaft does not. Bummer my friend. You have to remove, inspect and replace what is broken in there.
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Did you try taking out the "out" banjo bolt and cleaning it in carburettor cleaner/ blowing it out? There is a very small orifice in that bolt and if it clogs (VO much more likely to clog it), may cause some of the issues you're having.
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@ORCoaster, this is possible, but at the moment the failure occurred, I didn't feel or hear any sort of impact or stress release on the engine. I would describe the failure like if you were running a vacuum cleaner and someone suddenly yanked out the cord. Smooth sailings one moment and death the next.
@92EcoDiesel Jetta, no, I didn't take out the outlet banjo, but even if it was clogged up it wouldn't cause the plunger to stop moving. That aside, the oil that goes into this car is very clean having been filtered @ < 5 microns.
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Well if the pump isn't going in and out you're not going anywhere. But you figured that out. Tear it down, and post the picture of the broken part. If it is only those rubber tabs you got off cheap and you will have a better pump for resealing it with some gaskets and o rings that can take that alternative fuel you are burning. Now you know why french fries are crispy. Putting that oil around them will toast anything.
Good luck. DAS
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Thanks for the help. Will post back once we've torn the pump down and discovered the failure.
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because of WVO look at this: http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_users/4038-injector_pump_blocked_gunge.html (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_users/4038-injector_pump_blocked_gunge.html) I`ll try compesor air in solenoid and CHECK return flow I think you
must have some,like Hagar say 0.6 lit for 90 sek has to go.
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if your plunger isnt moving, or rotating, you have bigger issues than we can sit on the interwebs and diagnose..
you either have a snapped plunger, or like you were saying, the rubber dampers have deteriorated, and wont do their job anymore..
time to take the pump off, and open it up..
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I have had the same happen to me, twice! Once the plunger seized in the head and caused the litlle index pin on the cam plate that drives the plunger to shear.
The other time the fuel regulating collar on the plunger shaft seized to the shaft, shearing off the pin that fits in the collar on the throttle arm. Both times were caused by bad fuel (veg oil)and/or corrosion and gunk from long storage.
I think it is time for a pump tear down.
Michiel
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Disassembled the pump and found this inside:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34960946/pump%20inside.jpg)
Notice the metal fragments clinging to the inside. The rollers were falling out after just taking the cover off. Also notice how much corrosion was inside. This was an original pump but supposedly resealed. By the looks of it, the pump probably sat up and rusted for quite some time.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34960946/pump%20plunger.jpg)
Looks like I'll be shelling out for a new injection pump.
Thanks to everyone for the comments.
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Send it to Giles
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I wouldn't send it anywhere.
Looks like its already been to Hellenbach.
And might should have stayed there.
A guy on Vortex has an almost brand new pro rebuilt (stock) NA Altitude pump for very reasonable. Believe he has receipt to document. Looks full legit. Think he will include the lines and injectors also. You'd need the lines if going on a Std NA.
He seems VERY motivated.
And there is a placed called Hans/WestPort - in NC that has good prices on rebuilt pumps.
LoL sorry
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I wouldn't send it anywhere.
Looks like its already been to Hellenbach.
And might should have stayed there.
A guy on Vortex has an almost brand new pro rebuilt (stock) NA Altitude pump for very reasonable. Believe he has receipt to document. Looks full legit. Think he will include the lines and injectors also. You'd need the lines if going on a Std NA.
He seems VERY motivated.
And there is a placed called Hans/WestPort - in NC that has good prices on rebuilt pumps.
LoL sorry
LMFAO!!
that right there made me giggle!
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-Thats not rust in the pump. It is polymerized veg oil. same as the coating you get on your cast iron frying pans when you cure them.
-might be what caused the piston to sieze and the anciliary damage.
I have been mainlining diesel clean every oil change in hopes it will keep the insides of the pump cleaner and stop the build-up. I hope it works!
Michiel
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i, for one, dont run anything besides bio-D, or regular D (treated with lubrication or cetane booster of some sort, of course) in my car.. ive had to deal with a car that got vegi'd to death..
YES!!
they can, and will die from vegi oil if you dont run it exactly proper..
if you start a cold diesel on vegi, it will coke the rings up in no time, and quit starting all together!