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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: somedumbjerk on December 31, 2011, 04:52:30 pm
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just put in a metal headgasket, ARP bolts and a Giles pump on my 1.6 and i can not get it to fire. timed it correctly using tools to 1.01. i make sure the clear line from the fuel filter to the pump has fuel in it, and i'm cranking it for 15 seconds, letting it cool, cranking, letting it cool etc etc. i've had to recharge my battery twice now. today i took off the little line on the bolt that says "out" and popped a clear line i had in there and sucked until diesel came out, reattached and fired again. no luck :( i had the hard lines disconnected from the injectors earlier and could not get any fuel coming through them. i'm about to try this again, wish me luck.
any advice would be appreciated. i did a search and have not done the ATF thing yet, i don't have any ATF. oh and the solenoid clicks when the ignition is turned on. getting frustrated! any advice would be appreciated. i'm going to go try and fire it up again with the hard lines loose. wish me luck...
video for those who don't want to go to page 2 http://vimeo.com/34473177 (http://vimeo.com/34473177)
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started to kick over. originally firing on one cylinder, not it sounds like tow or three. cranks for like 8 seconds and sounds like it wants to catch but belches black smoke and just ownt catch. i'm taking a break for my neighbors sake, the smoke is thicker than hell. :o
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Did you double check your timing?
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Yeah I would do a triple check on your timing and go get some ATF fluid that makes a big difference on an empty pump
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That timing setting seems way too high for a Giles pump. He told me to not go above .0374" which IIRC is .95mm...still should start though.
I would recheck timing and make sure you get fuel coming out of the lines. You can remove the fuel seliniod and put it back in with out the plunger then you are sure that it isn't a problem, BUT you have to stall it or run it out of fuel to shut it off.
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Your issue sounds more like a fuel delivery problem but just to cover the bases, how warped was your head and block?
Crank with the injection lines at the injectors loose until you get fuel coming out of all 4. As fuel comes to one line tighten it up and wait for the others. You should probably drop your timing to the 0.90-0.95mm range as well but once it's running you'll hear if it has too much advance.
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thanks guys! i'll head out there in a bit and try to get it coming out of all the lines. i'll try and find someone who is open that has ATF. i really really hate going to walmart but i think that's my best bet.
i went on the 1.01 based on vince waldons site: turbo pumps: 1.00mm to 1.05mm (0.039" - 0.041")
why slightly retarded timing for a Giles pump? i'm just curious
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why slightly retarded timing for a Giles pump? i'm just curious
From Giles:
i like to tell people to set their timing to .95mm but every engine
is diferent and you might have to change it a little bit after.
that is a good starting point. i build into your pump lots of dynamic
timing so you don't need to add static timing like a stock pump.
Giles
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Are you 180° out?
no, i shouldn't be. the tool fit in perfectly and everything lined up well according to Vince Waldons site and my bentley. Unless i'm mistaken the cam locking tool won't fit in if you're 180 out?
and thanks for the Giles Quote! i actually bought this pump off of another member. the head didn't seem too warped, but my test for warpage was a straight edge and feeler gauges. not the most exact test. the engine had just under 100k original miles on it. the head looked great! really clean and the cracks in it are very small. just finished enough of my honey do list to get back at it again. i'll try and get a video of it as i fire it up, once now and once when running.
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The pump can be 180 out. IIRC the woodruff key should be at the 10 o'clock position. The IP locking tool will fit in 2 spots.
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Yeah check for the line on the pump side of the sprocket it should line up with the pump bracket
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You would have thought that VW in there infinite anal wisdom would have taken the time to either paint the inside of the correct hole on the IP or made some sort of marks around the outside of it. That way none of us could go wrong with the pin being in the "wrong" hole. I think that I will go around the outer edge of mine with a Sharpie or something tomorrow if I am out there under the hood. I need to do a timing belt soon and marking the pump now while I am thinking about it might just save me some head scratch, cussin later on.
So why didn't VW mark this pulley in some fashion, in addition to the teeny mark on the top of the pulley?
Going to paint that white as I never have enough light under the hood to see that stupid blue mark.
DAS
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my pump sprocket definitely has two holes. to check that i'm 180 out i need to go through all of the timing steps again to ensure TDC, right?
i have a video of it turning over with sound, but Vimeo is making me wait a half hour for it
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its got a detent/v mark in the pully... it lines up with the mark on the mount...
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http://vimeo.com/34473177 (http://vimeo.com/34473177) - here is the video of it not running. all four injectors are getting fuel.
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no you can just take off the 12mm nut *19mm socket* off the IP gear and look where the key way is when it is at TDC.
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got it to TDC and the little grove on the IP matches up with the bracket. i'm at a loss here.
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Just to be sure TDC with the cam at TDC? If you cannot tell then you have to take the VC off it will make a difference.
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Just to be sure TDC with the cam at TDC? If you cannot tell then you have to take the VC off it will make a difference.
definite TDC. i aligned the flywheel using the bigger white mark aligned to the arrow in the port in the transmission, and put in the cam lock and the pump lock.
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said exactly the opposite of what i wanted to say, i'm going to play with the timing after the battery charges and see if i can get her to fire up.
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The pump timing needs to be verified.. But to me it sounds like a fueling issue. Also have you verified that the idle is set high enough to allow the engine to sustain combustion. With the idle set too low the engine will never fire off because there is not enough fuel being injected.
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The pump timing needs to be verified.. But to me it sounds like a fueling issue. Also have you verified that the idle is set high enough to allow the engine to sustain combustion. With the idle set too low the engine will never fire off because there is not enough fuel being injected.
no i never thought of it, i'll go try that now. that actually makes sense because it will kick over as i crank it but then stops
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Your video reminds me of my car with a run down starting system, trying to get it to fire up the first time after priming the system. Weak turnover delays everything. It might just need that extra nudge to catch, run and purge all the air out since it sounds like its trying to catch. What about with the pedal down 1/3
I recently found out just how bad my system was slipping. I got my battery checked and it was bad after a year, it would drain down after charge. Then I upgraded to bigger power/ground wires with extra grounds to starter and alternator. Then I got a tdi gear reduction starter from a nice guy here on the forum just in case and its like a whole different car. I actually started my car a couple times by accident cold with no glowplugs!
I was working on it last week without running it much because I am having pump running issues and was able to crank it a ton over the course of the day and the batter read 65%, and it was still spinning the motor over constantly without being able to count the revolutions like that. So awesome upgrade in my opinion, it can make the difference in cold weather starting.
On another note is your timing belt tensioned right?
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Your video reminds me of my car with a run down starting system, trying to get it to fire up the first time after priming the system. Weak turnover delays everything. It might just need that extra nudge to catch, run and purge all the air out since it sounds like its trying to catch. What about with the pedal down 1/3
I recently found out just how bad my system was slipping. I got my battery checked and it was bad after a year, it would drain down after charge. Then I upgraded to bigger power/ground wires with extra grounds to starter and alternator. Then I got a tdi gear reduction starter from a nice guy here on the forum just in case and its like a whole different car. I actually started my car a couple times by accident cold with no glowplugs!
I was working on it last week without running it much because I am having pump running issues and was able to crank it a ton over the course of the day and the batter read 65%, and it was still spinning the motor over constantly without being able to count the revolutions like that. So awesome upgrade in my opinion, it can make the difference in cold weather starting.
On another note is your timing belt tensioned right?
the timing belt is my first one. i hope it's tensioned right... i looked up how to do it as i don't have the proper tool to test deflection and i read a couple places about how much twist it should have so i did it by that method. i can't find the actual write up at the moment, which is making me nervous. does it look bad?
i just got it running by messing with the idle, and that worked. thanks 8v! it was running rough and i pissed off a few cars on the street with smoke but i kind of blipped the throttle a few times and it coughed out white then black smoke and then ran fine. test drove it to get the engine up to operating temps and adjusted the idle a bit more. running okayish, but a little high on the idle, and i haven't taken it about 35mph yet (kept it in the neighborhood in case something went wrong. bay area freeways don't like when cars die on the road!)
i'm going to let it cool down and try it again. it's way quicker off the line. i don't have a tach so i didn't want to do anything crazy but it felt loads more powerful. it's kind of buzzing though.. it's hard to describe. i'll take my camera for the second test run. the mic on that is pretty good.
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Whenever I have to refill the injector lines/injectors I always floor it until it fires up, if it won't idle then you gotta adjust the idle screw of course.....
BTW I never bleed the injectors by cracking the lines anymore. I used to crack 2 lines, floor it and crank away but then I noticed that right as I saw fuel at the cracked lines it also would fire on the cylinders with the tight lines. I've done it with all line tight probably 5 times now and it's just as fast as cracking 'em only less messy.
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Are you 100% sure that the flywheel mark is actually TDC? Seen a couple of engines now where the mark was 30 degrees off.
This of course only applies if you removed the flywheel during the build.
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so my buddy and i worked on the car this afternoon. turns out we didn't torque the head bolts enough... apparently when i said "90 ft lbs" my buddy heard 60. i figured this out when i looked at the endgine a little closer this morning and realized it was leaking coolant from the head gasket. no oil got into the coolant that i can see and the dipstick wasn't foamy after running it today. the timing is still a bit retarded but she fires up and runs fine. i apparently over thought this problem and didn't make the sane assumption that i did something stupid.
Thanks for the help guys!
30 PSI is a lot of fun in these little cars!