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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: dh13 on December 19, 2011, 11:54:57 am
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So I am debating whether or not I want to go twin turbo on my M-TDI AHU Toyota Pickup project. I do not have the time right now to implement a standalone VNT controller to operate either of the VNT turbos that I have. I am trying to finish this engine swap by the end of my winter break. Once I determine whether or not I like the truck with this engine in it, I will be tearing it down to do a build on the AHU.
So my question for you all is: Would running a twin setup with a AHU K03 and a MK2 T3 work out alright? Or could anyone point me toward the maps for either or both of these turbos?
I am running a landy 11mm m-pump with Titan 764 (.234) nozzles. I feel that if I were to run the K03 alone I would smoke ridiculously and build a lot of hot hot heat.
The difference in size between the K03 and T3 seem to be okay for a twin setup, but then again I know nothing compared to some one here. I know there is a thread floating around about someone doing twins. I need to find it and do a lot of reading, I know that. But any information and/or thought would be helpful.
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Just to clarify you're talking about compound turbos, where the turbos are in series correct? Twin turbos would be two of the same turbo generally each feeding half of a given motor.
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Just to clarify you're talking about compound turbos, where the turbos are in series correct? Twin turbos would be two of the same turbo generally each feeding half of a given motor.
Yes, sorry I guess I did not clarify. Compound setup. One feeding into the other.
I did a little reading and found that someone said that the K03 and T3 would be an okay match for each other. It is important to note that if no external wastegate is used to bypass the K03 at high flow the egts and emp will skyrocket.
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Are you thinking of something like this? 8)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0301.jpg)
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How would a K26 audi turbo play with a VNT?
like, VNT for the small turbo, and K26 for the big one..
im going twin boost now that i know i have a 12mm block..
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Are thinking of something like this? 8)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0301.jpg)
Something like that!
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I saw your posts in the conversion section at tdiclub. Your truck looks sweet. I'm currently building a 1989 toyota for a buddy with a compound turbo setup. K03 and a k24. We're waiting for the oil line adapters, couplers and lines to get the mock up done. We should be dropping the motor in right after Christmas. We're going for a respectable 26 psi. This truck will have all the electronics with some custom chips from Malone. Should work out really well.
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How would a K26 audi turbo play with a VNT?
like, VNT for the small turbo, and K26 for the big one..
im going twin boost now that i know i have a 12mm block..
I'm sure something like this would also work really well. We were actually thinking of doing something like this with the k24 for the big one and a gt1749va for the vnt but the deal fell through for the vnt. I would be a little concerned about boost creep with a small vnt but a wastegate to bypass the small turbo would easily take care of this. The powerstroke 6.4 litre engines had a vnt for the small turbo and a wastegated big turbo so it is definitely doable.
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I saw your posts in the conversion section at tdiclub. Your truck looks sweet. I'm currently building a 1989 toyota for a buddy with a compound turbo setup. K03 and a k24. We're waiting for the oil line adapters, couplers and lines to get the mock up done. We should be dropping the motor in right after Christmas. We're going for a respectable 26 psi. This truck will have all the electronics with some custom chips from Malone. Should work out really well.
Thanks man. I just got in from the shop. I am installing my remote oil filter assembly. I realized that I forgot to install the downpipe when I set the engine in last time. Good thing I also found out I only have to move the engine ahead about 1.5 inches in order to install it the downpipe, rather than take the entire engine out.
At this point I am running out of time to do anything about building a compound setup. I am going to run the K03 and just limit the fuel for right now. I might be able to get a standalone vnt controller built during winter term and an adapter from the BHW manifold to the sprinter turbo I have. Or I might go with a compound setup I don't know I will have to see what will happen.
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How would a K26 audi turbo play with a VNT?
like, VNT for the small turbo, and K26 for the big one..
im going twin boost now that i know i have a 12mm block..
I'm sure something like this would also work really well. We were actually thinking of doing something like this with the k24 for the big one and a gt1749va for the vnt but the deal fell through for the vnt. I would be a little concerned about boost creep with a small vnt but a wastegate to bypass the small turbo would easily take care of this. The powerstroke 6.4 litre engines had a vnt for the small turbo and a wastegated big turbo so it is definitely doable.
i haven't read the whole thread so i don't know the whole conversation but a k24 would not be good with a gt1749, k24 is actually a pretty small turbo, and i would imagine that since the vnt15 actually can flow about the same amount of air as the k24 that the vnt17 would actually outflow the k24 by quite a bit, even tho the 17 is physically smaller. also keep in mind on compound setups, your max power is still limited by how much the larger turbo can flow.
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also a k26 could be good depends on how much it can flow. i would think on a compound setup u'd want a large turbo thats good for atleast 300hp like a t3 60 trim or something
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also a k26 could be good depends on how much it can flow. i would think on a compound setup u'd want a large turbo thats good for atleast 300hp like a t3 60 trim or something
so, your saying i should just use my T4? 8)
im down with that!
the turbos i have at my disposal are a T4, K26 audi quattro, T3 chry 2.2, TD04 chry 2.5, K24 VW diesel turbo, a T2 nissan turbo, and some other random ones..
the K26 or T4 seems like the only turbos that are sized good enough to work with my VNT..
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I don't know enough About it to say what turbos will work best together buying know k24 would make a better small turbo than big. And the sizing of both is really important the small turbo can still be a restriction
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I don't know enough About it to say what turbos will work best together buying know k24 would make a better small turbo than big. And the sizing of both is really important the small turbo can still be a restriction
yea, ive always thought that a K24 would be a poor choice for a large turbo in a compound setup.. they just are NOT big enough.
and dont they flow a similar amount of air as a VNT?
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Once this setup is up and running I'll post my impressions. I think it will work out quite nicely.
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Once this setup is up and running I'll post my impressions. I think it will work out quite nicely.
its gonna work good no question, but it might get a bit restrictive in the upper RPM range.. you may have to run an external wastegate after the small turbo, and possibly after both turbos if the drive pressure gets too excessive..
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I plan on checking exhaust manifold pressure and between the turbos as well. I don't plan on running over 3500 rpm under load so I think I've made good choices in turbos. I am also considering an external wastegate which can go where the egr port is. I have a k14 and a gt2260 on hand just in case I want to change out one of the turbos. Hopefully things go pretty quick after x-mas so we can get running soon!
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I don't know enough About it to say what turbos will work best together buying know k24 would make a better small turbo than big. And the sizing of both is really important the small turbo can still be a restriction
yea, ive always thought that a K24 would be a poor choice for a large turbo in a compound setup.. they just are NOT big enough.
and dont they flow a similar amount of air as a VNT?
Yeah I've never seen a k24 compressor map but the Garrett flows about the same as a v t 15 technically the k24 would flow more than a t3 because it's a 38 trim And the t3 is 35 but the k24 is more restrictive on the exhaust side so it kind of negates the benefit of the larger compressor inlet on the k24. Doesn't the corrado guy have a similar setup to this on an aaz? When andy2 was trying to build a compound I think he had said for a small turbo he found the vw t3 was too big but a k24/k14 hybrid was just right k24 exhaust side with k14 compressor. But he's obviously moved on to totally different things now since he has two absolutely huge turbos on his compound
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Wait.. this thread isn't about the beloved mammography? The study of the mammary gland?
Compound Turbo For The Win :)
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It's about bending rods with insane boost levels
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How about a dual scroll T3 AR of 78 and using a devided adapter with a flapper. Wouldn't that work? Thats what I plan to do for the next setup but in the Scirocco.
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Which t3? There's 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, super 60 and also the weird grand national wheel. The 45-55 trim wheels are the ones I think would work. 60s won't work and that gn wheel looks somewhat decent. But yeah I think that'd work good it'd be like a little .39 ar when closed and huge .78 open
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This is the turbo I was thinking of running. With the flapper valve. Divided T3 w/Vband .78AR.
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-020&Category_Code=GRT
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The flappers a good idea but gt3071r won't work it's too big that turbos good for over 400whp on 1.8ts vegeta gti on vortex has one on his 20v mki gli. I think any of the big vents they use on tdis would work well or gt2259 or gt2056 if it doesn't surge. This threads way off topic haha. If ur going to do the flapper tho u might as well do a vnt flappers easier tho
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The flappers a good idea but gt3071r won't work it's too big that turbos good for over 400whp on 1.8ts vegeta gti on vortex has one on his 20v mki gli. I think any of the big vents they use on tdis would work well or gt2259 or gt2056 if it doesn't surge. This threads way off topic haha. If ur going to do the flapper tho u might as well do a vnt flappers easier tho
and not to mention, ball bearing turbos are no good for diesels. the journal bearings are where its at, the shaft is floating in oil, not contacting anything metal.
ball bearing turbos spool great on gassers, and work fine, because of the gassers inherently lower turbine speeds..
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ROR...what the h3ll are you talking about ???. Ball bearing turbos are not good for diesels, ha ha.
What, what, what?
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Yeah I thought ball bearings were better in every way faster spool up longer lasting and use less oil
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yea guys, ive read that a few different places.. about the ball bearing turbos being a less than perfect match for a diesel because of the turbine speeds on a diesel being soo much greater than on a gasser..
ball bearings have mechanical contact 100% of the time. those balls have been known to fly out of their cages after a while..
journal bearings never have any sort of metal on metal contact..
why do you think they run journal bearing turbos on all the super hotrod tractor pullers, and all that sort of thing?
a ball bearing turbo would EXPLODE at those kinda RPMS..
i KNOW ive read this from more than a few people, and they werent a couple idiots off the vortex either..
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Well I'm no expert on BIG tracktor pulling, but the likly reason they run journal bearings is they don't have an oil restrickor so they can cool the bearings and housings better than with ball bearings?
Sure, journal bearings flow more oil but they are a friction bearing, just like crank and rod bearings.
Ball bearings also make contact with friction but are unloaded, non-friction.
The reason for ball bearings is for longer life under normal(lol) use. The byproduct is faster spooling.
My 2 cents
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I don't know enough About it to say what turbos will work best together buying know k24 would make a better small turbo than big. And the sizing of both is really important the small turbo can still be a restriction
I think you guys are missing the boat here. All of the exhaust has to go through the little turbo so if it is a restriction with a single turbo, its a way bigger restriction on a compound set up like the one pictured.
It is my understanding that to make it work for a drivable car, (as opposed to a race car) you need at least one wastegate and some fancy valving to pull this off. Porsche used a system where a small turbo with a big wastegate was the primary. As the wastegate began to open it pre-spooled the big turbo and never let exhaust manifold pressure get high. The secondary turbo had its own air intake with a flapper valve downwind to seal the intake while big turbo wasn't making (much) boost. As the little turbo moved to the limit of its efficiency the big turbo took over the majority of the load. Quick spooling with huge flow.
A big turbo feeding a little one is still faced with the flow limitations of the little one (+/-). I would think that you will need a turbo with an internal wastegate as the primary, dumping the wastegate output back into the exhaust inlet of the big unit so you limit the exhaust manifold pressure. I suspect that big feeds little is going to heat the air a bunch. This might be fine for tractor pulls that lasts 10 seconds, but pulling the Grapevine or Snoqualmie Pass might reduce a lot of expensive stuff to a pool of glowing metal. I think Porsche used inter and after cooling on the 930 rally cars, but is been 30 years since I read the engineering paper on it.
Since ROR is always taking about huge amounts of boost and quick spooling with a VNT, what would you gain with the compound setup that a VNT and a huge intercooler would not give you?
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Since ROR is always taking about huge amounts of boost and quick spooling with a VNT, what would you gain with the compound setup that a VNT and a huge intercooler would not give you?
Pretty much it will eventually run out of flow for higher rpm and be outside of its map. You would be hard pressed to find a vgt that could do a better job than a well designed compound set up. I have ridden in a lot of well built trucks and the turbo set ups make you want to cry. The only thing to compare it too is being on a roller coaster because you are being pulled forward so hard. I dont know a lot of roller coasters that go 120mph though. I am very interested in the topic of compounds for my build. But everything has to be budget minded and affordable cuz Im frugal :D. I also am curious as to how a eaton m45 or larger would work with a stock hx35. My buddy Carl is an innovator for truck performance and was one of the first people to ever do a triple turbo setup and is now running superchargers with large large turbos. I'd like to see how this would work on the vw's. I might enlist him for help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAZduIY1aeA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rgs326Ve6Q&feature=autoplay&list=ULOkn7MTZ0OWA&lf=mfu_in_order&playnext=1
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Since ROR is always taking about huge amounts of boost and quick spooling with a VNT, what would you gain with the compound setup that a VNT and a huge intercooler would not give you?
Pretty much it will eventually run out of flow for higher rpm and be outside of its map. You would be hard pressed to find a vgt that could do a better job than a well designed compound set up. I have ridden in a lot of well built trucks and the turbo set ups make you want to cry. The only thing to compare it too is being on a roller coaster because you are being pulled forward so hard. I dont know a lot of roller coasters that go 120mph though. I am very interested in the topic of compounds for my build. But everything has to be budget minded and affordable cuz Im frugal :D. I also am curious as to how a eaton m45 or larger would work with a stock hx35. My buddy Carl is an innovator for truck performance and was one of the first people to ever do a triple turbo setup and is now running superchargers with large large turbos. I'd like to see how this would work on the vw's. I might enlist him for help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAZduIY1aeA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rgs326Ve6Q&feature=autoplay&list=ULOkn7MTZ0OWA&lf=mfu_in_order&playnext=1
that right there.. my VNT still runs out of poop up top.
it DOES SPOOL quick. and it does make good boost, but its still a small turbo, no matter how good it flows.. all ive gotten out of it for boost is around 22psi, without having severely retarded timing.. because then you can make 35 psi with it. make her scream..
and the way to get rid of the restriction of the small turbo, is to bypass it with an external wastegate.. internal wastegates are a waste of time with a compound setup.. they dont flow enough volume to be any good..
when the time comes, i will be adding a wastegate to bypass my VNT, and feed a bigger turbo in a compound setup. im thinking either my Audi K26, a Peugeot T3, or a relatively small T4 for a low pressure turbo.. the K26 will probably be the best of those 3 turbos im thinking..
the T3 might not be BIG enough.. i dont know the map for it tho, or the specs or aspect ratios..
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BMW has an inline six diesel with two wastegated turbos that works very well. I drove an X5 with this 3.0l engine and I was impressed. I find it interesting that BMW, who has incredible engineering resources chose to go with two wastegated turbos compared to one vnt turbo.
My compound turbo project is moving along well and I'll get some more pictures up soon. We just ordered the chips from Malone and if we can get up to 26 psi as planned, we'll be in the 300ftlb range with roughly 180 hp. Should be pretty awesome.
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No doubt the small hp turbo can still be a restriction but the lp turbo compresses the air before it goes into the small turbo which then conpresses it more the small turbo can then flow more cause the air is compressed going in already they work off of pressure differential not a certain amount of air.
The Porsche set up is called a sequential setup it's not really the same at all toyota and Mazda has used the sequential setup before regardless I think a waste gate is definitely required unless u use a vent that has a huge turbine housing but that'd kind of defeat the whole point
Ror if u measure the inducer and exducer on that t3 like u did on the t4 then divide the inducer by the exducer and then square that number and multiply by 100 you'll have the trim of the turbo and u can easily find the map unless it's 55 trim they never published that one I think a 60 trim t3 could be a good lp turbo
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No doubt the small hp turbo can still be a restriction but the lp turbo compresses the air before it goes into the small turbo which then conpresses it more the small turbo can then flow more cause the air is compressed going in already they work off of pressure differential not a certain amount of air.
The Porsche set up is called a sequential setup it's not really the same at all toyota and Mazda has used the sequential setup before regardless I think a waste gate is definitely required unless u use a vent that has a huge turbine housing but that'd kind of defeat the whole point
Ror if u measure the inducer and exducer on that t3 like u did on the t4 then divide the inducer by the exducer and then square that number and multiply by 100 you'll have the trim of the turbo and u can easily find the map unless it's 55 trim they never published that one I think a 60 trim t3 could be a good lp turbo
its prolly a 55 trim, lmfao.. i would expect it off a Peugeot..
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U can still get an idea of where the 55 trim will work since its some where between a 50 and 60 trim. Ive actually been working on making a some what accurate compressor map for by combining a 50 and 60 but it's just been during my lunch hour at work. I'll post it when I'm done and satisfied. One of the bigger vnt turbos they use over at tdi Club has the same inducer and exducer size I think it's the 2260 I would imagine the geometry of it is newer and more efficient tho. 55 looks like a good turbo for a vw diesel depending on the exhaust a.r what size of engine is it off of?
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U can still get an idea of where the 55 trim will work since its some where between a 50 and 60 trim. Ive actually been working on making a some what accurate compressor map for by combining a 50 and 60 but it's just been during my lunch hour at work. I'll post it when I'm done and satisfied. One of the bigger vnt turbos they use over at tdi Club has the same inducer and exducer size I think it's the 2260 I would imagine the geometry of it is newer and more efficient tho. 55 looks like a good turbo for a vw diesel depending on the exhaust a.r what size of engine is it off of?
from what ive gathered, its a .36 exhaust/.42 intake.. appears to be a clone of a VW turbo.. its off the same engine as my 10mm injection pump, a Pug 2.3L 4 banger diesel, out of a 505TD..
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So, does anybody have anything to say about setting up a K24 and a K26 in a compound array?
i have one of each.. a K24 off a 1.6/2.0TD, and a K26 off an Audi quattro 10v.. (wastegateless)
i was told to run them as compounds, with the K26 not running a wastegate at all..
i can make the K24 fit fairly decent, and still have room for the K26..
what do you guys think? kinda would like to know sometime soon.. ive got a boostless diesel that needs new turbos..
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So, does anybody have anything to say about setting up a K24 and a K26 in a compound array?
i have one of each.. a K24 off a 1.6/2.0TD, and a K26 off an Audi quattro 10v.. (wastegateless)
i was told to run them as compounds, with the K26 not running a wastegate at all..
i can make the K24 fit fairly decent, and still have room for the K26..
what do you guys think? kinda would like to know sometime soon.. ive got a boostless diesel that needs new turbos..
k24 i think would be a good smaller turbo, only thing some what bad about it is it has a pretty small exhaust side a/r of .30
k26 i think will be alright, i'd try something bigger personally. it only flows enough air for maybe a bit more than 200hp and its efficiency range of 70+% isn't that wide and peak efficiency is only 72%. its worth a try especially since u have it all laying around.
(http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/parts_products/turbo/26.jpg)
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heres a good thread about the older kkk stuff, pretty interesting especially how the part numbers work.
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=15595
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So, does anybody have anything to say about setting up a K24 and a K26 in a compound array?
i have one of each.. a K24 off a 1.6/2.0TD, and a K26 off an Audi quattro 10v.. (wastegateless)
i was told to run them as compounds, with the K26 not running a wastegate at all..
i can make the K24 fit fairly decent, and still have room for the K26..
what do you guys think? kinda would like to know sometime soon.. ive got a boostless diesel that needs new turbos..
k24 i think would be a good smaller turbo, only thing some what bad about it is it has a pretty small exhaust side a/r of .30
k26 i think will be alright, i'd try something bigger personally. it only flows enough air for maybe a bit more than 200hp and its efficiency range of 70+% isn't that wide and peak efficiency is only 72%. its worth a try especially since u have it all laying around.
(http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/parts_products/turbo/26.jpg)
the only turbo i have thats bigger than a K26 is a T4.. and a T4 might be a BIT TOO BIG for a 1.6
screw it, just add lots of spray! it will either spool, or go BOOM! hahaha.
honestly, i think im going to play with the K24 first, and see how i like it. i know it spooled pretty early on the 2.0 it was on, so it should be similar on the 1.6
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i had one with a stuck wastegate, i thought spool and power was pretty good at 25psi. just with a turned up pump stock cast down pipe and 2.25 exhaust and a cone filter. mine even had a knackered compressor wheel. t4 might be alright, but then u might be better off with one of your t3s i'll look again, i don't know much about the compounding but i figure u want to look at how much the big turbo can actually flow, at 10-20psi which is where most turbos are efficient anyways. i think even when u do all the math, its still a guessing game and only trial and error will create the best setup. imo for the small turbo u want one that is good for mediocre power(which is why i think k24 is good), and for big turbo you want one capable of flowing a good bit more than your power goal, and that would normally surge and not work on your engine(this isn't necessary but the idea is to move more air than what would normally be possible). even with the small turbo being mediocre size you're going to get more boost sooner than with just the k24 because of the multiplying effect of the compounds.
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holy crap, these K24s take FOREVER to spool.. boost in neutral is out of the question now..
how positive are you guys that the 1.6 and 2.0 K24s are identical? it sure seems like this one spools way late..
it has a 2" inducer on the exhaust side, are the 1.6's the same size?
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So, im thinking that a K14, and a K24, or K26 would be a GOOD compound turbo setup.. the K24 is just too big to be the small turbo unless you had an ultra hotrod diesel that spun some SERIOUS RPMs..
someone mentioned using a K24 as a high pressure turbo, and a K26 as a low pressure turbo.. and now having the K24 on the car, i dont think that would be the best plan.. it would be all top end power, and nothing on the bottom end.. i want torque. thats what i loved about my quick spooling VNT turbo, it made boost as soon as you brought it much up past idle..
what do you guys think of the K14? is the hot side too restrictive? i really want a small turbo that boosts fairly instantly.. because this 2.0 K24 is NOT the turbo for me. sure, its cool having a big HIT of boost once it comes on, but my favorite part of my VNT was that it came on way down low..
now im throwing the idea of Nitrous around again.. i have a WHOLE nitrous kit begging to be used. just need to fill and install.. that should be enough to spool my turbo a bit sooner 8)
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I was planning on building a compound set-up with a k14 and a gt2559v. Unfortunately life got in the way and I had to sell the k14. I think the k14 would make a great small turbo in a compound set-up. I think I would use a nice large external wastegate as the k14's is just too small once you start dumping serious fuel.
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holy crap, these K24s take FOREVER to spool.. boost in neutral is out of the question now..
how positive are you guys that the 1.6 and 2.0 K24s are identical? it sure seems like this one spools way late..
it has a 2" inducer on the exhaust side, are the 1.6's the same size?
I could make 10psi in my old 1.6 idi reving it in neutral. You need a 2.5 or 3" downpipe and exhaust, or a better k24???
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holy crap, these K24s take FOREVER to spool.. boost in neutral is out of the question now..
how positive are you guys that the 1.6 and 2.0 K24s are identical? it sure seems like this one spools way late..
it has a 2" inducer on the exhaust side, are the 1.6's the same size?
I could make 10psi in my old 1.6 idi reving it in neutral. You need a 2.5 or 3" downpipe and exhaust, or a better k24???
im not positive that i cant make boost in neutral, it just doesnt seem like it will..
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From what I understand k24 does not react well with manual boost controllers u kind of have to adjust the set screw. K24 should flow a small amount more than the vnt u had assuming it was a vnt15. Over all tho even with no vane control the vnt15 is a better turbo with a much more modern design. But I think in compound with a k26 spool up will be faster because of the second turbo but u will still be limited to maybe 200hp because that's just what the k26 can flow but really you will have to experiment to see what turbos work best I don't think the t4 will ever work tho just too big and not a broad map
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From what I understand k24 does not react well with manual boost controllers u kind of have to adjust the set screw. K24 should flow a small amount more than the vnt u had assuming it was a vnt15. Over all tho even with no vane control the vnt15 is a better turbo with a much more modern design. But I think in compound with a k26 spool up will be faster because of the second turbo but u will still be limited to maybe 200hp because that's just what the k26 can flow but really you will have to experiment to see what turbos work best I don't think the t4 will ever work tho just too big and not a broad map
i had a MBC on it when this turbo was in my audi.. it regulated boost just fine..
really, this K24 is going to flow about the same air? it looks HUGE compared to my VNT..
and idk how a K24 and 26 would ever spool as quick as my VNT.. it was almost spooled at idle..
and i dunno what else to do for a second turbo.. the biggest units i have are a T4, and a K26. sounds like the T4 is too big, and the K26 is too small?
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Yeah the vnt is a lot newer flows same amount of air more efficiently from a smaller wheel but I still think k24 would flow a bit more since k24 is 38 trim so the 40 trim t3 map would be pretty similar. The outer appearance is not always a good indicator of its flow. I think k26 is good to try as a second turbo really tho the dodge turbo u have is pretty comparable it and maybe a better option. But ur gonna be limited to low 200s for hp which is good really
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Yeah the vnt is a lot newer flows same amount of air more efficiently from a smaller wheel but I still think k24 would flow a bit more since k24 is 38 trim so the 40 trim t3 map would be pretty similar. The outer appearance is not always a good indicator of its flow. I think k26 is good to try as a second turbo really tho the dodge turbo u have is pretty comparable it and maybe a better option. But ur gonna be limited to low 200s for hp which is good really
the Chry T3 turbo? its CONSIDERABLY bigger than the VW/pug T3s i have.. would it perform better than the K26?
the K26 has no wastegate, the T3 has a wastegate port, but i guess you dont NEED to run it..
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Well, the motor is in and running! :) The k24 turbo barely turns at idle. There's no cooling system yet so we're still a week away from a real test drive. Once it has a cooling system and the intercooler piping is done we'll go for a spin and see how it feels. I put a stack on it for now for the exhaust but that won't stop us from taking it for a spin! I might put some pics up if you guys are interested. 8)
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Well, the motor is in and running! :) The k24 turbo barely turns at idle. There's no cooling system yet so we're still a week away from a real test drive. Once it has a cooling system and the intercooler piping is done we'll go for a spin and see how it feels. I put a stack on it for now for the exhaust but that won't stop us from taking it for a spin! I might put some pics up if you guys are interested. 8)
im at the EXACT SAME position with my build, but with only a K24 turbo, no compounds YET.. the turbo is on, and hooked up to oil, but nothing else yet. cleaned the old compressor wheel out of my intercooler today at school, took it to the hot tank..
im gonna take my hood off, and use the temporary exhaust stack ive got, for my first spin..
i gotta rev my engine to around 3 grand before the turbo starts making any noise..
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i gotta rev my engine to around 3 grand before the turbo starts making any noise..
Its gonna feel like a completely different car.. :(
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i gotta rev my engine to around 3 grand before the turbo starts making any noise..
Its gonna feel like a completely different car.. :(
yea, i know.. im not too excited about it. its gonna be EXTREMELY laggy, compared to what im used to.. :'(
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I hope to get the TDI in early next week.. equipped with the k03 that starts to spool just off idle :)! I cannot wait for some power!
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I'm hoping that combining the k03 and k24 will make the ultimate combo. Quick spool with lots of legs. I'll have all kinds of gauges on this thing. I've made provisions for an emp gauge, low pressure turbo gauge, intake manifold pressure, egt, as well as fuel inlet pressure/vacuum.
My biggest concern is emp. If the emp are too high, I'll try an external wastegate between the turbos. If that doesn't curb emp, I'll be pissed but have other turbo combos. That would mean completely rebuilding the setup though.
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I'm hoping that combining the k03 and k24 will make the ultimate combo. Quick spool with lots of legs. I'll have all kinds of gauges on this thing. I've made provisions for an emp gauge, low pressure turbo gauge, intake manifold pressure, egt, as well as fuel inlet pressure/vacuum.
My biggest concern is emp. If the emp are too high, I'll try an external wastegate between the turbos. If that doesn't curb emp, I'll be pissed but have other turbo combos. That would mean completely rebuilding the setup though.
sorry to P*SS in your cheerios, but i think the K03 will 100% be an exhaust restriction.. cause think about it, its already a restriction on a single turbo engine, once you rev it up..
so think of how bad its going to be if you are dumping close to 2x the air thru the same restrictive hot side?
also, the wastegate on a K03 is way tiny.. its not going to keep up once the K24 lites off..
its probably gonna work GREAT around town, and under 15psi.. but i imagine you will have EMP issues with that TINY of a turbo.. maybe a K14 would have been a better choice in this setup..
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I actually did some porting on the k03 hotside including the wastegate. I can't comment on the performance of the setup until we try it so I'll just leave it at that.
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410, what vehicle is that going to go on?
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i think it should run alright, spool of a ko3, flow of a k24, might have to play around with how the wastegates are set up because you are still limited to what the k24 can flow. if your ko3 is set at say 10psi, and your k24 is also set to 10 psi, then when they are both spooled, the engine should be seeing a pretty efficient and fast spooling ~27psi (if my math is right.) and really i don't think you can go much higher on either turbos boost setting with out exceeding the flow and efficiency of the k24. especially since it's on a tdi and they move quite a bit more air.
the math (10psilpboost+14.7ambient)*((10psihpboost+14.7ambient)/14.7))=41.5psi absolute pressure or 26.8 psi boost
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Yeah the vnt is a lot newer flows same amount of air more efficiently from a smaller wheel but I still think k24 would flow a bit more since k24 is 38 trim so the 40 trim t3 map would be pretty similar. The outer appearance is not always a good indicator of its flow. I think k26 is good to try as a second turbo really tho the dodge turbo u have is pretty comparable it and maybe a better option. But ur gonna be limited to low 200s for hp which is good really
the Chry T3 turbo? its CONSIDERABLY bigger than the VW/pug T3s i have.. would it perform better than the K26?
the K26 has no wastegate, the T3 has a wastegate port, but i guess you dont NEED to run it..
i think itd be better than k26, but they look to be pretty similar in flow over all, the t3 does better at higher pressure ratios tho, but that doesn't matter if you are doing compounds. the chrysler turbo is mostly just bigger on the exhaust side in comparison to the pug turbo. i think they are kind of medium sized turbos for doing a compound tho.
but what i was saying before was that in compound the spool would be faster than with just the smaller turbo by itself
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This setup is in a Toyota pickup truck. We don't plan on running more than 26psi so we should be good to go. We also chose the k03 because it is a heavier vehicle and quick spool is very important.
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This setup is in a Toyota pickup truck. We don't plan on running more than 26psi so we should be good to go. We also chose the k03 because it is a heavier vehicle and quick spool is very important.
. Has it been driven yet I'm curious how it runs
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I hope you don't plan on much more than 18 psi with that turbo..it week never home up to 26 psi
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I hope you don't plan on much more than 18 psi with that turbo..it week never home up to 26 psi
what turbo? the K03? what about if it was in a compound tho? if both turbos are only making 10psi, then both are WELL WITHIN there efficiency limits..
because, obviously, if the K03 is being fed with 18psi boost, there will be more than 18psi coming out of it..
as long as the wastegate is big enough to allow the hot side to NOT be a restriction, i could see this setup working AMAZINGLY..
but i dont think the STOCK K03 wastegate will bypass enough exhaust to relieve the restriction of the hot side housing..
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the exhaust side is the only thing i could see being a problem too, but it sounds like he will be monitoring all of that.
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the exhaust side is the only thing i could see being a problem too, but it sounds like he will be monitoring all of that.
yes, he definitely has it covered.. if its a problem, i see it being corrected quickly..
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the exhaust side is the only thing i could see being a problem too, but it sounds like he will be monitoring all of that.
yes, he definitely has it covered.. if its a problem, i see it being corrected quickly..
Such kind words R.O.R. Are you feeling okay? ;)
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the exhaust side is the only thing i could see being a problem too, but it sounds like he will be monitoring all of that.
yes, he definitely has it covered.. if its a problem, i see it being corrected quickly..
Such kind words R.O.R. Are you feeling okay? ;)
no, i just know you wouldnt jump in with both feet without having some sort of gauges to monitor everything.. i know you arent looking at lifting the head with this turbo setup..
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so wahts the word
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Last night would have been the first test drive but we have a coolant leak at the water pump. >:( We had just finished all the other plumbing, power steering, intercooler, and we're hooked up to the fuel tank now. The last thing we did was add antifreeze and discovered our first leak. We'll take care of that this week and the first real test drive will be this weekend.
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So I have a small update.
We have a couple of test drives on the truck now. No exhaust yet other than a stack coming out of the k24 pointing straight up. I have no real numbers yet but emps are reasonable, roughly 30 psi under load. Seems to be a good combo for a truck. What surprised me is how much boost it builds just by bringing the revs up. It makes over 5 psi at 2000 rpm with no load and both turbos are building pressure by 2500. My only real conclusion so far is that it has ZERO turbo lag. Absolute blast to drive. Time for some exhaust, put the hood on and get some more runs in!
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So I have a small update.
We have a couple of test drives on the truck now. No exhaust yet other than a stack coming out of the k24 pointing straight up. I have no real numbers yet but emps are reasonable, roughly 30 psi under load. Seems to be a good combo for a truck. What surprised me is how much boost it builds just by bringing the revs up. It makes over 5 psi at 2000 rpm with no load and both turbos are building pressure by 2500. My only real conclusion so far is that it has ZERO turbo lag. Absolute blast to drive. Time for some exhaust, put the hood on and get some more runs in!
so, this is a K14/24 setup?
maybe my 24/26 setup isnt such a bad idea after all.. because im not looking for boost at idle, just lots of boost once it picks up, and all while not making one turbo strain..
GREAT JOB!!!
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Can we see some pics 410?
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(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0301.jpg)
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I have more pics coming. You don't see much as far as turbos go now that the motor's in. So just to clarify, this is a k03 with a k24. From what I've seen so far this will be a perfect combo for the toyota truck setup and ideal for towing and low rpm torque. If I was wanting to make more top end, like 180+hp, I'd go with bigger turbos. Maybe k14, k26 For more top end performance.
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I have more pics coming. You don't see much as far as turbos go now that the motor's in. So just to clarify, this is a k03 with a k24. From what I've seen so far this will be a perfect combo for the toyota truck setup and ideal for towing and low rpm torque. If I was wanting to make more top end, like 180+hp, I'd go with bigger turbos. Maybe k14, k26 For more top end performance.
dont the K03 and K14 perform basically the same tho?
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The k14 is physically bigger than a k03. That's all I can really say about it. I don't have actual numbers on them.
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K14 and k03 are very different. K14 starts spooling 1500-2000 later than the k03 but flows waaay better at any rpm with boost. 10 psi on a k14 feels like more power than 15 psi on a k03. Above 2500 rpms, the k03 is just an exhaust restriction. They're too small even for a 1.6, IMO.
thanks libby, ive never ran either turbo to know how either performs..
if these K03s are such a restriction, why do they use them on 1.8Ts? must be a much different K03 than the diesel one?
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Your right R.O.R, the k03 on the 1.8t is very different. I've run both the k14 and k03 but not on the same vehicles or setups and I've never had emp gauges on either. I have a 1997 passat that's still intact. I'll put some gauges in it before I tear it down to see what kind of exhaust pressures the stock setup sees. Who knows I might even slap a k14 just to get some numbers. I ran the k14 on my first toyota truck in the beginning and it wasn't too bad. What I can say is the compound k03, k24 setup rocks compared to the single k14. No comparison.
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Working on the exhaust. 8)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMAG0870.jpg)
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you going to cross over under the transmission? or behind the transfer case?
im speaking of the exhaust system.. because the fuel tank is on the same side of the truck, as the turbos, and downpipe will be..
or is the exhaust going to be short enough that it doesnt matter what side its on?
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you going to cross over under the transmission? or behind the transfer case?
im speaking of the exhaust system.. because the fuel tank is on the same side of the truck, as the turbos, and downpipe will be..
or is the exhaust going to be short enough that it doesnt matter what side its on?
The exhaust runs along the transmission and crosses over after the transfer case. After that everything is in it's stock location. I had to go with 2.25" pipe from the turbo down to the transmission then 2.5" to the muffler which is 2.75" in and out. The exhaust is done up to where the tailpipe should be.
So we finally went out for a good romp. I have some numbers. At 26 psi, which is max boost, the k24 was making about 12 psi and emp's peaked at 40. Not bad as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see emp's a little lower but all in all I'm very happy with it. So far egts have only hit 1000'F under load and quickly drop off as soon as you're off the throttle.