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General Information => General => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on December 15, 2011, 10:06:12 pm
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Whats involved. Just the different lever between the car mounted shifter and the trans mounted shifter? Or does it even matter?
Would it not still have R 1 2 3 4 all in the same spots as the 5 speed? The only reason I ask is because I have a good idea in mind for it ;)
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you can go 5 to 4 with no linkage changes..
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the shift pattern is wider on a 4 speed.. thats why you cant find 5th gear when you use a 4spd linkage..
you are supposed to use 4 speed specific parts, but 5 spd parts may work..
you better have a 4A 4 spd, if you are taking a 5 spd out and swapping a 4 spd..
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Yes Sir I Do.
GP would be even better.. only slightly though.
While were on the topic.. what year transmissions are the best out of all the 020's? No matter on year.
I know the pre-85 I think are the most robust.. and the post-85 are less robust but have a better something or other.. Mainly, what I am looking for is the transmissions of the 020's that AREN'T one wheel peelers when the drivers wheel slips a bit.
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Yes Sir I Do.
GP would be even better.. only slightly though.
While were on the topic.. what year transmissions are the best out of all the 020's? No matter on year.
I know the pre-85 I think are the most robust.. and the post-85 are less robust but have a better something or other.. Mainly, what I am looking for is the transmissions of the 020's that AREN'T one wheel peelers when the drivers wheel slips a bit.
all 020's are 1 tire fryers..
and the 4 speeds are the toughest.
and 3.89/3.94 gears are soo close to the same its not funny. they use the same speedo drive gear.
idk tho dude, your gonna need more power to make that trans work right, unless you already have decent power.
i stand by what i said, driving a 4spd is like driving a wide ratio 5spd with a blown up 4th gear..
so, if 4th isnt low enough, and you have to shift down, you shift to 3rd, and go for 4500rpms all the way up the hill..
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pre 85 are non junket ones... LOL.. the parts that fail on them are easy.. 5th gear set.. and only if run low on oil..
i had 1 4 speed one... and in under a mo it had a 5 speed.. the 4th gear sucked like he says...
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i would keep your 5 box in there buddy..
especially since you probably wont gain anything..
everything i have, that had a 4 box in it, now has a 5 box in it..
IMHO.. theres no such thing as a 4 spd that compares to a 5 spd..
the wide ratio trannies, the 1-3 split is pretty nice actually, but the jump from 3rd to 4th is HUGE. like i said, its like theres a gear missing..
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I had an 84 rabbit n/a with the 4 speed. Don't know which one it had, I am assuming the 4A. The gear that sucked for me wasn't 3rd to 4th it was 2nd to 3rd. Third to fourth is about the same as most 5 speeds 4 to 5, but the second gear is the one that you had to scream and if you were on a hill especially with the n/a power I had, after you shift to 3rd you might end up shifting into 2nd again. I remember clearly after doing the gov mod on it doing 70 in 3rd gear. It didn't seem like it needed something in between 2nd and 3rd, as that would have been too much, it just needed the 5 speed. On the highway that 3rd and 4th gear were the best gear I have had in a VW.
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I had an 84 rabbit n/a with the 4 speed. Don't know which one it had, I am assuming the 4A. The gear that sucked for me wasn't 3rd to 4th it was 2nd to 3rd. Third to fourth is about the same as most 5 speeds 4 to 5, but the second gear is the one that you had to scream and if you were on a hill especially with the n/a power I had, after you shift to 3rd you might end up shifting into 2nd again. I remember clearly after doing the gov mod on it doing 70 in 3rd gear. It didn't seem like it needed something in between 2nd and 3rd, as that would have been too much, it just needed the 5 speed. On the highway that 3rd and 4th gear were the best gear I have had in a VW.
it didnt have a 4A then.. not a chance.
those things had a WIDE jump to 4th gear. like i said, its like driving a 5 spd car with a blown up 4th gear.
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3.94 3.45 1.75 1.06 0.70
Jump from 3rd at 1.06 to 4th at .70 is only .36. It wasn't real good, but as long as you didn't short shift it up a hill you were at least ok. You had to get up to 55/60 then shift into 4th you couldn't pull 4th from 45mph and accelerate.
The jump from 2nd to 3rd is 1.75 to 1.06 which is .69. That killed on the hills around here.
In no way am I saying it is a good option, but I didn't think the tall gears were the issue it was the middle.
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3.94 3.45 1.75 1.06 0.70
Jump from 3rd at 1.06 to 4th at .70 is only .36. It wasn't real good, but as long as you didn't short shift it up a hill you were at least ok. You had to get up to 55/60 then shift into 4th you couldn't pull 4th from 45mph and accelerate.
The jump from 2nd to 3rd is 1.75 to 1.06 which is .69. That killed on the hills around here.
In no way am I saying it is a good option, but I didn't think the tall gears were the issue it was the middle.
for me, the lower gears were tits. i loved the 1-2-3 spacing of the 4A trans, just not the 4th gear jump. this trans had one of the HIGHEST second gears of any VW trans..
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I am curious as to why you are wanting to do this? I have swapped my AVX for an ASF specifically for better interstate cruising, and honestly, I feel it could still pull way past 80, but I tach out around there. So I am always interested in these types of threads.
What gain were ya lookin for? Or are ya just millin the idea around?
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all 020's are 1 tire fryers..
and the 4 speeds are the toughest.
and 3.89/3.94 gears are soo close to the same its not funny. they use the same speedo drive gear.
idk tho dude, your gonna need more power to make that trans work right, unless you already have decent power.
i stand by what i said, driving a 4spd is like driving a wide ratio 5spd with a blown up 4th gear..
so, if 4th isnt low enough, and you have to shift down, you shift to 3rd, and go for 4500rpms all the way up the hill..
More Power.. Yess YESSS!. muhahaha.
Its only a 1000 rpm jump between third and fourth gear.. What are you guys on about? I could shift from third to fourth at 3000 and wind up in 4th right around 2000.. Right back at the peak of the torque. ;D :D
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1200 rpm jump between 2nd and 3rd though :O How did non turbo 1.6's ever handle this transmission?
Also back to the 1 tire fryer thing.. I swear there is slightly more force keeping both wheels spinning in the later transmissions??
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Yeah I think broke's site says something like the later trans had the 20% peliquin style kit in them. The earlier ones would rattle and only have around 2% preload or something like that.
Just today not trying to, I verified that my 80% kit still works at least sometimes. I tried to get up to the barn at the farm and when I let the clutch out it didn't move. When I backed up to get a run at it there were 2 peel marks in the mud.
And I think that is what trouble I had with mine. 1,200 isn't much, but if you are headed up a steep grade accelerating and shift into 3rd there were many times about 8 seconds later I would be shifting back into 2nd and flooring it. On the highway though I didn't try to accelerate in 4th unless I was at 65mph or so. Otherwise 3rd did pretty good up there to about 70. That was all the engine really wanted.
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3rd gear should be usable from about 55km/h up to whenever you wanted to shift for the application I intend..
HOWEVER
What about a close ratio tranny with a .71 5th in it?
I have an mk1 close ratio 4K (3.94 3.45 2.12 1.44 1.13 0.89) with about 210k kms on it.. it shifted pretty nice when i took it out of the car. How hard is it actually to do a 5th gear swap? Some have done it in car?? It musn't be too difficult eh? I think this transmission with a 5th swap to .71 might actually be perfect..
If you had a motor putting down 150-155ft.lbs at 1900 rpm.. what would you do? I am mostly in town, so i would rarely use the 5th gear..
I almost feel that the wider transmission would better suit it.. to have full potential of that torque down so low.
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That is a bigger jump than the 4 speed 3rd to 4th, but only by .06.
Me personally I would rather have the 5 speed any code over the 4 speed. Except the 2H code 5 speed. I would rather of had my 4 speed over that p.o. crap. I have never owned the 4K but it is almost the same as the 2H...until 5th all the gears are 500rpm apart. All you do is shift and if it has a wide torque curve you don't need to do that. Your car though.
Broke told me the 5th swap is easier in car as it takes over 140 ft/lbs to loosen some bolts. You have to take the linkage off and put it in 2 gears at once to loosen and tighten it. In the car it holds itself, out of the car you have to find a way to hold the trans in one spot.
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I just recently did the .71 swap on the AUG that I put in the caddy. I used the how to on BrokeVW.com's site. Good Explanation. You will want to read it a few times. Or maybe it's just my ADD. ::) I had to make a custom tool. The one with the two little nubs sticking down. If you already have the trans out you can stand it upright, so the rod with the spring on top is harder for it to fall out. Everything went ok for me, just don't be in any hurry.
Also, it's a big jump from 4th to 5th. The engine seems happy so far. Boost on the K-14 is around 6-8 psi at 65-70 mph. EGT's about 650F. Only complaint would be a taller 4th would be nice.
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1200 rpm jump between 2nd and 3rd though :O How did non turbo 1.6's ever handle this transmission?
Also back to the 1 tire fryer thing.. I swear there is slightly more force keeping both wheels spinning in the later transmissions??
theres conical washers and springs holding the axles centered in the 3rd member.. the 80% kits just shim the springs against the washers really hard, making it almost impossible to turn 1 axle at a time..
the later trannies all had this, but also had the weak rivets, and weak reverse gears. 4A has the conical washers. i believe its the only 4 spd that got them.
THERE IS NO ACTUAL LSD DEVICE IN A VW TRANS UNLESS YOU PUT IT THERE!!
and Jeremy, theres no way your going to be making 150 Ft Lbs @ 1900 without using a TDI w/ a VNT on it.. an IDI just wont do it. you gotta rev an IDI up to make torque and power..
i think you should just try an ACN trans. or are you trying to avoid the 3.67 gears? i actually prefer the 3.67 gears over the 3.94s..
a different trans made my car COME ALIVE once i did the swap. 4th gear was too tall for hills, even when you were building 15 psi..
the GC trans was even better in my opinion, because you could use any gear, on any hill.. it just always seemed like it needed another gear.. (the GC trans is just an F series trans, without 5th gear..)
anyways, there are LOTS of ACN trannies around, and most of them had an easy life, living behind a low power GX 1.8L engine.. the ACN came in 85-88 base model golfs and jettas.. i love my ACN trans. it doesnt have a .71 5th, but it has a .75 5th, and 3.67 final drive.
i believe the difference between .71 & 3.94 was like 100rpms difference over the .75 & 3.67 gears IIRC?
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The newer trans did not have the 80% kit, they had a 20% IIRC. You can go to broke vw's site and he has it all broke down into the different kits made now.
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The newer trans did not have the 80% kit, they had a 20% IIRC. You can go to broke vw's site and he has it all broke down into the different kits made now.
none of the trannies ever had a limiting device for slip.. the conical rings are to keep things centered, not to aid traction..
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The newer trans did not have the 80% kit, they had a 20% IIRC. You can go to broke vw's site and he has it all broke down into the different kits made now.
none of the trannies ever had a limiting device for slip.. the conical rings are to keep things centered, not to aid traction..
Just because they weren't put there to aid in traction doesn't mean they don't aid in traction..
Nothing = 2.5 - 5 ft-lbs
Factory = 26 - 29 ft-lbs
40% Kit = 77 - 80 ft-lbs
80% Kit = 135 - 140 ft-lbs
So a 1984 4K will then have the factory stock conical rings that add the 26-29 ft-lbs.. and the stronger ring gear rivets? Score. Then I will put the .71 fifth in my 4K :)
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Hell I might even get an 80% kit! :)
Also KEVIN, yes.. 150 ft-lbs at 1900. :)
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Hell I might even get an 80% kit! :)
Also KEVIN, yes.. 150 ft-lbs at 1900. :)
mind telling me how you plan to do that?
my engine barely produces boost at 1900 revs, let alone 150 ft lbs..