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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: rabbitman on December 15, 2011, 09:19:27 pm
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The car is the '92 golf that won't start worth beans.
Yesterday I plugged it in until the top rad hose was really warm to the touch and it still didn't want to start. Finally after cranking forever the rpm got high enough and it fired up and ran PERFECT. This thing runs like a dream........
Pulled it in the shop and checked compression, the results are depressing.
Checked almost up to full temp.
#1: 330psi
#2 250
#3 265
#4 160
Its gotta be the rings since I just redid the valves. The cylinder walls looked nice, crosshatch were still visible.
Any chance dumping kerosene in the cylinders and soaking it will fix anything? I really don't feel like doing rings right now.
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Do you think the rings are in there tight and not expanding? Hence the solvent in hopes of breaking them free? Kind of a two edged sword here. They may come free but then they may really be loose and your compression would get worse.
Being where you are kind of rules out thicker oil now doesn't it. Could you get the pistons down in the cylinders and try some ATF? That stuff has a lot of detergent in it. Are you close to an oil change. Someone on here mentioned that they run a quart of ATF for the last few hundred miles in there oil before changing it. Perhaps that might help from the lower end. But in all reality the tops are where the coke is at most times.
If you already have the head off then aren't you half way home on doing the repair? Or are you stating the cross hatching in the cylinders from your memory when you did the valves?
Bummer, but a kerosene soak and ATF in oil combo might get some results. Do let us know.
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Yup, the crosshatch is from memory. IIRC the PO also posted about the crosshatch of this engine too.
Yeah I read (maybe on this forum) about soaking rings in kerosene to free 'em up but it's been a while.
One reason I'm thinkin' they're stuck is 160 psi means a ring either broke or has something else wrong with it.
I'll try a leak down if I can find the fittings and see if it's rings or valves........
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I don't have fittings for a leakdown so I put lots of B12 chemtool in the injector hole and let it soak for the day refilling them every hour or two.
Put it back together and it took forever to start, I had to use the block heater even indoors at 60F before it would start. I drove it enough to get it hot (IR thermometer showed 213F on the block!) and pulled the injectors back out and tested it fully hot.
#1: 220
#2: 280
#3: 260
#4: 250
So my previous low cylinder gained 90psi and my previous high cylinder lost 110psi. Before the soak I think the 330 cylinder was the one puffing smoke rings 'cause I could tell one cylinder was firing and now there's no smoke rings and they all fire pretty evenly.....just enough to make smoke and crank fast though ::).
I don't know why one cylinder lost compression but I now know that I'll be doing rings in the near future..........it's smokin blue anyways.
I'll keep you all updated as I progress.
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I thought it would go this way. Some good, some bad, but you now know what is needed and just think how great this baby will run when you are through with it. I haven't had time to check my numbers on the cylinders on my engine but it sure turned easy by hand when it was cold for a few days in a row here. Finally got to measure the static timing. 78 mm. Ah, a bit retarded don't you think?
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Yeah 78mm is pretty bad haha.
So I'm looking at getting a ring groove cleaner since I'm tired of using screwdrivers and little files to get the carbon out.
Does anyone know what cutter sizes to use on these things? I don't have it apart yet or I'd check.
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Yeah 78mm is pretty bad haha.
So I'm looking at getting a ring groove cleaner since I'm tired of using screwdrivers and little files to get the carbon out.
Does anyone know what cutter sizes to use on these things? I don't have it apart yet or I'd check.
I have on occasion broke a ring in half and use the butt end to clean the ring grooves.
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Yeah 78mm is pretty bad haha.
So I'm looking at getting a ring groove cleaner since I'm tired of using screwdrivers and little files to get the carbon out.
Does anyone know what cutter sizes to use on these things? I don't have it apart yet or I'd check.
I have on occasion broke a ring in half and use the butt end to clean the ring grooves.
Yeah somewhere I read that's a horrible thing to do but I've done it myself, I've never used a real groove cleaner but I like to think it's quicker and easier.
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I have used both and I really like the results of the proper tool. I tend to twist the broken ring about too much and that ends up scratching the groove in not so pleasant ways.
I'd hit O'Riellys up for there equipment if it available. My guess it that they will have a hand held part and an assortment of teeth or something to put in to get you to the proper size groove. You basically buy the tool and get your money back when you return it. No return then you just got a new tool.
Helps do the job and keep the clutter off the wall over the work bench.
Try it.
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I have used both and I really like the results of the proper tool. I tend to twist the broken ring about too much and that ends up scratching the groove in not so pleasant ways.
I'd hit O'Riellys up for there equipment if it available. My guess it that they will have a hand held part and an assortment of teeth or something to put in to get you to the proper size groove. You basically buy the tool and get your money back when you return it. No return then you just got a new tool.
Helps do the job and keep the clutter off the wall over the work bench.
Try it.
That's what I'm trying to avoid is scratching anything, getting it clean faster is a plus too.
I don't have anywhere local I can rent from but I can buy it for $20-$35 depending on brand. Thanks for the reply.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=26366.0 Check if anyone is willing to loan you one on this thread on this forum. You may need to specifically ask for one. I scanned the lists but didn't see one written out anywhere.
For the prices you listed that may be the cost of shipping one way on something like that. Keep looking.
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That's what I'm trying to avoid is scratching anything, getting it clean faster is a plus too.
I don't have anywhere local I can rent from but I can buy it for $20-$35 depending on brand. Thanks for the reply.
It is very easy to peel aluminum off/ scratch a piston even with a ring groove cleaner. Just go slow, new teeth cut fast!
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Just so you guys know, this place: http://www.importrp.com/ is the place to go. I've bought from them before and talked to their customer service and have been very happy so far.
I placed my order online friday evening and on monday (closed on weekends) they let me add an item to to my cart. I have yet to here "it's against are policy".
And they speak actual English!!!!!
HG-$28, grant rings-$23, very cheap rering if you ask me. I have head studs so no worries there.
Is it recommended to change the rod bolts everytime?
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Is it recommended to change the rod bolts everytime?
That has been debated a couple times around here.. The official word is yes, replace them every time.. However I as well as others have reused them with no problems.. There has been an engine or two of my own I've reused them as many as three times with no issue.. Anymore though if it's something decent (aka had way too damned much money spent on it) I don't like to reuse them more than once.. If it's an engine I know nothing about, or has been tampered with in the past I replace them in those situations as well..
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It would be nice to re-use the head bolts again. Somebody's gotten rich off of all the sets I've bought. Many previous discussions say no,no,no. I believe them. Bottom line is, do you want to chance a blown gasket for a couple of bucks? The labor alone makes this a no brainer.
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It would be nice to re-use the head bolts again. Somebody's gotten rich off of all the sets I've bought. Many previous discussions say no,no,no. I believe them. Bottom line is, do you want to chance a blown gasket for a couple of bucks? The labor alone makes this a no brainer.
if they have only been used once, i will re-use them. but i ALWAYS measure toe bolts before using them. the head bolts i put back in my car were used, and stretched to ~5.040..
i wont re-use them next time.. i need to order up a couple sets of 12mm head bolts to have on hand. my local parts store has 11mm bolts on hand, but not 12s..
i figured i might as well re-use the bolts, because i re-used the head gasket also..
THIS IS NOT COMMON PRACTICE FOR ME!! i usually NEVER re-use items like this..
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I have ARP head studs already. The items in question are the rod bolts, ARP rod bolts will cost about $100.
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I have ARP head studs already. The items in question are the rod bolts, ARP rod bolts will cost about $100.
how much are new TTY bolts? probably not too cheap either?
just think of it, the ARP bolts, they are the last rod bolts you will need to buy. you get what you pay for..
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I haven't priced stock rod bolts but from what I've read they're not much cheaper.
I didn't want this rering (or the whole car for that matter) to cost more than it already has, I think it's still under $1000 NOT counting my time. I keep wanting to get to drive it around and see how it is before spending lots more on it but so far it isn't happening that way.
I did reuse the rod bolts on my dad's golf gasser and it's been fine, I think the rods/pistons are lighter on a gasser though.
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I haven't priced stock rod bolts but from what I've read they're not much cheaper.
I didn't want this rering (or the whole car for that matter) to cost more than it already has, I think it's still under $1000 NOT counting my time. I keep wanting to get to drive it around and see how it is before spending lots more on it but so far it isn't happening that way.
I did reuse the rod bolts on my dad's golf gasser and it's been fine, I think the rods/pistons are lighter on a gasser though.
gasser piston weighs like 1/2 or 1/3 of a diesel piston.
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I've gotten a couple sets of the ARP rod studs on ebay for about $60 shipped.. One downfall of the ARP's is that you should have the rods checked for sizing after installing.. Out of 5 sets, I've only ever had one rod distort after pressing them in.. But it only would have taken that one to really make for a bad day, especially since it was on my engine...
If you know that this would only be their second use, and it's a budget build reuse them.. Honestly the first dozen of these diesels I took apart and put together I didn't even know you were to replace the studs (alldata makes no mention of it till you go up to the 1984 model year)...
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alldata also says this: "Ensure "stretch'' type connecting rod bolts are used. Bolts are not reusable, and must be replaced during assembly. During installation, tighten nuts to specified value, then turn each nut an additional 1/2 turn to obtain proper stretch." My bentley says +1/4 turn....
What would happen if the rod was out of round? Would it bind on the crank journal?
The cheapest I can find on ebay is $101 shipped.
It is a budget rebuild but I don't like to cut corners that could cause a catastrophe later.
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Yeah, I'm learning that alldata is not too consistent.. I just checked my latest version and it does mention replacing the rod bolts on pre '84 models, IF you check the TSBs.. :-\
Yes it would bind, after my machinist pointed it out, I would imagine it would bind quite noticeably.. The best way to describe what happens, imagine driving a punch though the hole for the rod bolt and stretching it larger.. Now think about what the metal on the outside would do in that situation.. It basically creates a bump right in the middle of the bearing surface where the 2 halves would meet..
Again, I only ever had this happen on one set, which happened to be the latest set I installed them in.. I'm still glad I had all others in the past checked though..
I'm not finding any better prices on the studs myself.. Now that I go back and look at my receipts to see who I bought from I realize that the last set I bought was almost 5 years ago...
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So today in preparation for my parts to arrive I pulled the head and pistons. The rod bearings are in bad shape, #3 is the worst one with a little copper showing.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/P1010847.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/P1010854.jpg)
Is it possible to tell if these are stretch bolts by the picture?
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/P1010857.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/P1010884.jpg)
Some scuff marks on the front of the piston above and below the rings, this is the worst one.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/P1010885.jpg)
JP code block already has flat spots for piston squirters.....
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg218/rabbitdude82/P1010889.jpg)
Them bearings have me worried, I know the oil pressure isn't spectacularly high. I blame the worn lifter bores, I can wobble the lifters and get very visible movement.
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So I got the parts today, new rod bearings and all. I'm not sure if they sent the right ones though, the new ones have oil holes while the old ones do not. Will it hurt anything to use the bearings with oil holes? There's no matching holes in the rod of course since the oil comes from the crank journal.
Part # of new bearings is 034 198 501 BR
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That is supposed to be an upgraded rod bearing. I used it in my build and they were just fine. The autohaus az says they are upgraded on there site page and are fine to use as well.
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That is supposed to be an upgraded rod bearing. I used it in my build and they were just fine. The autohaus az says they are upgraded on there site page and are fine to use as well.
Thanks, I was thinkin' I'd have to wait another week to get it together.
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Some rods have an oil pasage for the wrist pin and thus the need for the hole. (Don't know if any V-Dub does) It won't hurt if it's there. I had ticky lifters from day one (used engine) and replacing them made a world of difference. Not that expensive either. Oil pressure is still crap even with a new pump. I've heard that the hydraulic engines are famous for this. I disconnected the gauge and rely on the idiot light. Ignorance is bliss.
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So it runs again. I didn't run it much just enough to know that it runs weird still, clacks like crazy yet misses as if the timing was retarded.
I'll mess with it more in a few days...........
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Set timing to .95mm and internal pressure to 38ish psi at 1000 rpm. Ran it a bit and it seems ok. With it slightly warm to the touch I glowed the plugs for about 10 seconds (longer than the light called for) and fired right up with no cold start or go pedal!!!!! Slight miss so I pulled the cold start and it got better.
I don't want to idle it much with the new rings but at the same time I want it to run good when I go out to drive it. It's pushing -33F right now so I don't think I'll take it anywhere until it warms up out, if I go anywhere I'll have to either let it idle or plug it in to avoid letting it freeze up. Idling it long term isn't an option until it's broken in.
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Idling your engine to break in rings is a fallacy. Drive it hard is the best way. Those rings need cylinder pressure to drive them hard against the bores to assist them in conforming to the bore eccentricity. You have a limited time to do this until the honing scores wear smooth. At that point the process will slow to almost nothing. Don't baby it! Unless you like to tear down engines to replace previous good work and parts!
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I totally agree, you don't need to drive it like you stole it but you need to vary it up an down more than usual. Use the engine for a brake and rev it up a bit longer than you would normally. Search the threads here. At one time we had this discussion. How to properly break in a new engine.
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when i break them in, i run them like i stole them once they are up to temp..
im a firm supporter of the "run it like ya stole it" group..
makes the rings seat ALOT faster..
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I totally agree, you don't need to drive it like you stole it but you need to vary it up an down more than usual. Use the engine for a brake and rev it up a bit longer than you would normally. Search the threads here. At one time we had this discussion. How to properly break in a new engine.
x2. Run it hard, but don't run it fast...don't mash it and hold it to the floor, but use all of the rpm range.
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Yeah I only drove it for 15 minutes and I varied the rpm a lot, engine braked a lot and floored it a lot. Whenever I ran 3500-4000 rpm I'd let it engine brake back down and go easy on it for a bit to let things cool.
It's cold out now so I might have to wait a little while to hit it again.
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I totally agree, you don't need to drive it like you stole it but you need to vary it up an down more than usual. Use the engine for a brake and rev it up a bit longer than you would normally. Search the threads here. At one time we had this discussion. How to properly break in a new engine.
x2. Run it hard, but don't run it fast...don't mash it and hold it to the floor, but use all of the rpm range.
yea, i guess i should have clarified..
like Lucas said, dont just go out and red line it.. vary the RPMs, but load the engine as much as you can.
i would keep it under 5000 for a while, or if you do see 5000, just do it briefly, then shift..
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I've never hit 5000 with either of my diesels. My rabbit just doesn't sound smooth, it might just be the whole body vibrating though. 4800 is my max with it.
The golf feels much smoother and I've hit 4500 a few times before the re-ring.
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So the other day I tried starting the golf at 15F without plugging in, it cranked fast and long and finally started but quit when(I assume) the GP's shut off. I glowed again and it cranked the same and just before it should've started it just totally gave up and sounded like 3 dead cylinders and one firing. rarararRARrarararRARrar......and so on.
Is in possible for the hydro lifters to hold valves open? I saw a 1.9 TDI do it once, they would crank it (without firing at all, the brain wouldn't turn the fuel on) and suddenly it would sound like it was cranking with the injectors removed. Wait a bit, try again and it would repeat the same.
Mine doesn't sound like zero compression though.
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So yesterday I drove about 210 miles and all was good, I haven't checked oil comsumption yet.
Every now and then it would give a tiny little jerk like it was missing for a split second but it was hard to tell it apart from the tar lines.
Engine is quiet and very non-intrusive until 2800-2900rpm and higher then it takes on a hum that drones constantly.........
This morning it was plugged in for 6 hours and started with a little more cranking than I like, maybe 3 seconds. It wouldn't seem so bad accept for the starter groan that I'm sure slows it down some. I'll have to tear into it and change some bushings maybe.
Also since it was outside the interior was cold so the speedo was a little noisy, if it doesn't get worse I can live with it but otherwise I hate the little rattly/ticking noises.
The ride is very luxurious compared to my rabbit but it's not nearly as firm and sporty. It doesn't go "BANGBANG" on every tar line.
The seat is not made for my back and the floor is cold (my feet never got comfortably warm) so I'm gonna put some insulating foam under the carpet.
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So I feel as one who failed at diagnosis..........
My rings are good but for some reason MY VALVES ARE BEING HELD OPEN.......I have yet to determine if the valve stems are too long or if the lifters are not bleeding down right.........
I did account for valve length when I ground the seats, the bentley has a spec for tip of stem to vc surface and IIRC I had to shorten all of the valves.
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Valves held open? If the oil pressure is very high this can happen with hydraulic tappets, but this usually happens at high revs with a stuck oil pressure relief valve. High speed misfire that will drive you mad looking for it.
BUT if it is at startup, oil pressure is zilch, so look for something else.
Over lapping or cutting the valve seats, if the sealing area where the valve meets the seat is too broad, that can cause compression loss.
Somebody put valves that are too long, valve seats too deeply recessed, cam with too large a base circle radius er............. ;), you have your work cut out eyeballing that head.
My doubts with the lifters not bleeding down, try a very thin feeler guage between the heel of the cam and tappet when cold from overnight, good luck.
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I depressed a valve, stuck a .0015 feeler gauge in and couldn't pull it out. Not sure if the lifter was totally collapsed though.
The cam is a Dr. Diesel performance grind, I would think that would give it a smaller base circle and have less chance of holding valves open....
I still need to measure the stem to VC surface to know if they're out of spec.
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So I just went out, washed a lifter out with gas by pushing/pulling on the moveable part, put that one lifter into each lifter bore in the head (the head is installed) and put the cam in, the cam actually rocks on the lifter.
If I push hard enough to seat the cam on its journals the valve will open a very easy-to-see amount. I don't know why this engine ever ran........
I also took a VC surface to valve stem measurement and it was .010" shorter than spec. Not sure why I missed that since I remember thinking about but it would appear I need to pull the head and redo some things.
If the valve doesn't have enough left to grind off the stem I'll be looking for new seats or another head that hasn't had the seats ground yet.
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Also, on the off chance that I have the wrong lifters, if one of you has a lifter laying around could you make sure it's flattened and measure the distance from the cam surface to the moveable part that touches the valve stem?
Mine measures .778"
TIA
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I have one here that is collapsed on my computer table and it is real close to 1/2", no where near 3/4
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I have one here that is collapsed on my computer table and it is real close to 1/2", no where near 3/4
Is that measured or "eyeballed"?
If that's the case then I have lifters for something else, aren't gasser lifters really similar if not identical to a diesel lifter?
I'd love to only have to buy new lifters.
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Well maybe ALL of my lifters have issues and are stuck partway open.
According to my quick research, gas and diesel lifters are the same........
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So I used hook jawed vise grips and squeezed a lifter for a while and it did flatted more, and if appears there's a spring inside the lifter.
After flattening it all the way I put it in a lifter bore, put the cam in and pushed it down, now I can feel the spring squish without opening the valve.
With the cam holding the lifter down I can push the lifter down and feel the spring squish a little more so I don't think I'm outside the lifters working range.
Now what happens when I put it all back together and start it will this problem repeat itself?
Lucas, I'll get a new measurement with a lifter that's "really" flattened.
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All exhaust valves are just BARELY in spec but only one intake valve is in spec, the rest are pretty far out.
That would explain why it seemed to fire on one cylinder all the time.
I'm now in the market for a "new" head.
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Rabbitman here is a usefull link for degunking hydraulic tappets...............
http://www.cabby-info.com/Files/CleaningHydroLifters.pdf (http://www.cabby-info.com/Files/CleaningHydroLifters.pdf)
I have used tappets from the 1.0 litre petrol HZ engine in the 1.6 litre diesel SB engine with no problems.
Checking the cam base circle, http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21328.15 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21328.15) from yonks ago, should give some base circle diameters to try.
Good luck.
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That was measured. Maybe close to 5/8
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That was measured. Maybe close to 5/8
Ok, looks like my lifters weren't the problem, once I left them squished for a while they got a lot shorter than previously measured.
My issue is definitely caused by the seats being ground too far into the head and putting the lifter at its shortest while still holding some valves open.
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If you have an aftermarket camshaft, check the basecircle is 38mm....ish. Before you rip the guts out of the engine.
A mate had a three day swearfest before he found the replacement camshaft had been wrongly dimensioned by the VERY reputable makers.
Don't take anything for granted. ;)
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Just measured at slightly LESS than 37mm. This is a hydro engine so the cam is a bit different than solid.
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Not sure what's going on any more. I totally flattened the lifters (though some are still being stubborn about it) and put in one lifter at a time, bolted the cam down and I can compress the little spring inside the lifter without opening the valve. So it would appear I don't really have a problem other than lifters that were pumping up too far.
I'm currently soaking all of the lifters in some toxic chemicals to try and loosen whatever is keep a few from wanting the bleed down. There are about 3 that I can squeeze over night and they'll flatten but as soon as I let up on 'em they don't want to squeeze all the way down again. The rest seem to be totally empty.
That minimum VC surface to stem tip measurement in the book may be not the limit but probably leaves enough room for valve wear over the years.
My plan is to empty all the lifters and put it all back together and see what happens. I have a HG on the way in case I find that I do have to grind the stems shorter.
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Not sure what's going on any more. I totally flattened the lifters (though some are still being stubborn about it) and put in one lifter at a time, bolted the cam down and I can compress the little spring inside the lifter without opening the valve. So it would appear I don't really have a problem other than lifters that were pumping up too far.
I'm currently soaking all of the lifters in some toxic chemicals to try and loosen whatever is keep a few from wanting the bleed down. There are about 3 that I can squeeze over night and they'll flatten but as soon as I let up on 'em they don't want to squeeze all the way down again. The rest seem to be totally empty.
That minimum VC surface to stem tip measurement in the book may be not the limit but probably leaves enough room for valve wear over the years.
My plan is to empty all the lifters and put it all back together and see what happens. I have a HG on the way in case I find that I do have to grind the stems shorter.
have you checked for a stuck oil pressure check valve?
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Check valve in the lifter or you mean the relief valve in the oil pump? Oil pressure is lower than I like so that can't be the issue. I got the lifters working good now, I think they had something gunked in there and weren't bleeding down.
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Check valve in the lifter or you mean the relief valve in the oil pump? Oil pressure is lower than I like so that can't be the issue. I got the lifters working good now, I think they had something gunked in there and weren't bleeding down.
didnt you REPLACE the lifters tho?
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didnt you REPLACE the lifters tho?
No, I didn't think it would be worth it if these were still fixable, which they were I guess they seem to be working fine........
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didnt you REPLACE the lifters tho?
No, I didn't think it would be worth it if these were still fixable, which they were I guess they seem to be working fine........
i have a set of lifters out of an AAZ that crashed.. and those lifters function as new, but that doesnt mean i would ever consider running them..