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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: steevz on December 13, 2011, 02:23:27 am
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Just bought another 1.6 TD. 85 Jetta, no rust.. good condition.
I am having some trouble though and am left wondering where to look next.. It's definitely getting fuel starvation (I think)..
Here's the situation:
The car starts, runs for a few minutes then starts coughing, sputtering, and dies. When it dies 1000s of tiny little bubbles come rushing out of the pump inlet and up the hose towards the filter.
What I've done so far:
Rig up an IV to the pump. 8' clear line from bottle of diesel. Started and ran fine.
Rig up an IV to the filter. Same results, started and ran fine.
Then I preceded to remove the fuel pickup and cleaned out the screen. It was all gunked up and filthy. Took some cranking to start, ran fine once getting fuel again until sputtering and dies with air coming back up the hose.
Next, I deleted the water separator by the rear wheel. Same result, don't stay running.
Once all the bubbles settle and I can start the car again I've tried cracking the injectors just they just keep spitting out little bubbles and don't seem to clear up and eventually the car will die again.
Are there any more likely culprits for causing these symptoms? I'm in need of ideas.
Thanks.
Edit: Also, I should note that when driving the car it doesn't feel like it's lacking any power, and if throttle isn't allowed to drop too low it won't die.
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dose the return lines go back to the filter? if so check those... that seemed to be my problem awhile back...they didnt even look like they leaked out...but where not tight on those little tubes on the injecters...i trimed the ends and most of my air teoubles stopped... i also had a leaking fitting on the filter..
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Well, I trimed both my lines at the filter. Return lines just goes straight back to the tank.
Tomorrow I'm replacing all my lines with clear. Hard to filter, to IP, and IP to hard return. Should make life easier.
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Replaced all the lines with clear. There is constant foam/tiny air bubbles from the return line out of the IP back to the tank. Intake is air free except when it chokes out and all the tiny air bubbles come back out of the IP inlet.
Ideas?
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I went through the same steps as you after I got my first jetta home. Although I didn't have as bad a case as you, I had the air bubble problem.
In my case I went through my original abused pump on the car, another used one that sprung a leak as soon as I installed it. And even after blowing out all lines, replacing new runs from engine bay to tank and all clear hose unions.
I also was baffled to see a chinese cheap fuel filter give me air restriction problems right from the get go in a bucket.
I even got my injectors rebuilt a few months into owning the car and installed a new vw return line kit. What was crazy is I used to be able to get out of the car after shutdown sometimes when hot and put my ear near the pump and hear hissing for almost 10 seconds.
I also saw the problem get worse while on the car with its fuel lines vs. a bucket which is why I ran straight new runs thinking I was missing some pinhole leak.
For me I also got another used pump from a forum member that started to leak after I put it into service and I replaced just the high pressure end oring and wouldn't see fuel drips anymore.
I finally got sick of it and busted down another pump with fresh mainshaft bushings, cleaned things up and resealed everything with a kit. What do you know to this day the fuel stays primed at the pump and I don't get an introduction of air bubbles. I used to go out for a cold start and the fuel would drain away from the inlet of the pump so I wasted juice with glowplugs and the starter as it tried to reprime itself, then cough to life for a bit and clear itself out.
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Well, I ran it again today with the feed and return in a bucket. It ran all the air out of the lines. Return line was pure fuel as well as intake and it idles fine until shut down.. more then 15 mins. So, there must be a blockage somewhere... going to get the return lines blown out tomorrow.
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Sounds more like front end shaft seal trouble to me. Rebuild in order, buy the kit and tear into it. My suggestion.
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I have an NA pump. Can I put that in while I rebuild the other?
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I have an NA pump. Can I put that in while I rebuild the other?
Yep. Most definitely. Lotta people (myself included) run n/a pumps with turbos. Technically speaking it's not quite as ideal, but in all reality it works just fine. Just a little more smoke until the boost kicks in is all.
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Blew out return lines.. were clean, and turned out to be the check valve, deleted it, idles fine now. Just gotta check oil pressure high and low cause I got both lights blinking/buzzer.
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I have an NA pump. Can I put that in while I rebuild the other?
Yep. Most definitely. Lotta people (myself included) run n/a pumps with turbos. Technically speaking it's not quite as ideal, but in all reality it works just fine. Just a little more smoke until the boost kicks in is all.
no..
more like ALOT more smoke while off boost..
my car would pour a smokescreen with the n/a pump.. now with a TD pump, no more smoke screen.
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Damn.. low oil pressure. 0psi on my 0-100psi mech gauge at idle. only 12-18psi in between 2000-2500 rpm. The wife had her foot on the throttle and was watching it but she was having issues. All I know it that it's low.
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Gah, pulled the oil pan. Then soft pieces of metal in the pan and a big piece clogging the oil pump screen. Rod and main bearings are in excellent condition.. got some new intermediate bearings, going to try and switch out the outter bearing at least.
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Damn.. low oil pressure. 0psi on my 0-100psi mech gauge at idle. only 12-18psi in between 2000-2500 rpm. The wife had her foot on the throttle and was watching it but she was having issues. All I know it that it's low.
HOLY CRAP!!
thats WAY WAY LOW!!
i used to see 6-8psi at idle, i thought that was low, but 0 psi, now thats low..
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Okay, well I have everything apart. I wasn't exactly sure how to get the IM shaft bearings replaced, hard to find solid information on them. I just want to do the outer bearing for sure..
How does one get the old bearing out of the block without causing any damage to the surface the bearing is in contact with? I can feel the surface of the outer bearing has flaked by just rubbing around it with my finger. I'm hoping the inner will be okay.
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PICS please, thank you. Ya cant start a "new to me" thread without some pics! ;D
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I used the IM shaft and its retainer to press a new outer bearing in on a friends TD jetta. Easy as pie. The retainer couldn't push the shaft in enough to "flush" the bearing with the bore so at the end I had to use a big washer between the retainer and shaft.
I also had to use extra long bolts for pulling the retainer in until it got close enough to the block to use the normal bolts.
I just used a screw driver to knock the old bearing out, just be sure to catch it or you'll be pulling the pan.
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PICS please, thank you. Ya cant start a "new to me" thread without some pics! ;D
Noted.. will add some pics once I can get the car out of the garage. :)
I used the IM shaft and its retainer to press a new outer bearing in on a friends TD jetta. Easy as pie. The retainer couldn't push the shaft in enough to "flush" the bearing with the bore so at the end I had to use a big washer between the retainer and shaft.
I also had to use extra long bolts for pulling the retainer in until it got close enough to the block to use the normal bolts.
I just used a screw driver to knock the old bearing out, just be sure to catch it or you'll be pulling the pan.
I already have the pan off, so doesn't matter too much. I'll try that.
Thanks a lot! Will update.. I might not have a chance to work on the car again until the 27th, going out of town for xmas.
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Alright, got the new bearing in. Thanks rabbitman! That method worked great.
When putting the oil pump and pan back on, do I need to prime the oil pump? The pump has been sitting in the oil pan off the car for about a week.
Thanks.
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Okay, well started the car adjusted the timing.. running fine.. still LOW OIL PRESSURE!
Went from maybe 0 psi to 3-4 psi when warm after changing the flaked IM bearing. I pulled the pan again, checked the oil pump.. looks to be in good condition.. no to very minimal wear on the gears.. they appear to be 19mm on the shortest diameter and 32mm on the outside.. so what pump doesn't this mean I have? How much wear is allowed for the shaft? there is maybe 1-2mm.
Pulled the vacuum pump, read something about the vanes.. all looked well and lubricated inside the vacuum pump.
Checked the main bearings #2 and #3 and they look like they are in great condition, rod bearings are also good.
Anyone else have some ideas to throw at me for low oil pressure?
Thanks.
Edit: I should also mention that I swapped a crap fram oil filter to a mann filter and used 15w-50 semi synthetic oil as Vince Waldon's how to said thicker oil can help.. maybe it's too thick?
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:o :o :o :o
Bought a new oil pump today thinking it was going to be high volume. Brand new Meyle.. what do you know.. it's also 30mm. Gah..
Going to be returning it, thought I'd double check my main and rod bearings.. my lighting must not have been right last time because they're all showing wear! Going to pickup all new rod and main bearings today in a couple hours they'll be in.
Also, my middle main bearing with the thrust arms.. the arms look like they actually have no wear.. they had main bearings with 2 piece thrust bearings and plain sets. Ordered the plain set of main bearings can I just reuse my thrust arms?
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:o :o :o :o
Bought a new oil pump today thinking it was going to be high volume. Brand new Meyle.. what do you know.. it's also 30mm. Gah..
Going to be returning it, thought I'd double check my main and rod bearings.. my lighting must not have been right last time because they're all showing wear! Going to pickup all new rod and main bearings today in a couple hours they'll be in.
Also, my middle main bearing with the thrust arms.. the arms look like they actually have no wear.. they had main bearings with 2 piece thrust bearings and plain sets. Ordered the plain set of main bearings can I just reuse my thrust arms?
there are 2 piece thrust bearings, and 6 piece thrust bearings, and neither sort can be mixed or matched..
the 2 piece bearing is all integrated. no separate pieces, just drop the bearing shell in, align the bearing with a big hammer, and then torque everything down..
the 2 piece integrated bearings are junk in a VW.. less than 50% of the surface area of the 6 piece thrust..
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Sorry, I guess what I ment was the guy said on the phone it shows bearing sets with no thrust sides (hoping they're the six piece thrust bearings, but maybe it doesn't come with the thrust sides, if not can I reuse mine?) .. and then the 2 piece integral bearings. I ordered the set without the integral bearings.
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if the 4 thrust crescents are still good, reuse them. Make sure to put them back in the same positions as they came out. <- important :-*
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Awesome, thanks. My main bearing set didn't come with them so, that's good.
Edit: The rod bearings seem to have some grey coating, this is normal?
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Uhh, yea. Just make sure everything is clean, and use plasti-gauge. 8)
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Do I clean the coating off the rod bearings or install them as they came?
Edit: I can't find the torquing valves for the main caps and rod caps? Someone help me out please?
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worth reading if you haven't yet
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5129625-Diesel-Vacuum-pump-rotary-vane-type&highlight=diesel+vacuum+pump
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worth reading if you haven't yet
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5129625-Diesel-Vacuum-pump-rotary-vane-type&highlight=diesel+vacuum+pump
Already have.. I've been lurking everywhere to find low oil pressure symptoms. I've already replaced my mains.. just need to know if I clean the coating/film off the rod bearings or if it's there for a reason before I swap them out.. and looking for the proper torque specs. I'll take my vac apart again since it's out right now and double check it before putting it back on. Thanks.
Edit: All done. Main and rod bearings replaced. ... Still have low oil pressure. :( Didn't even increase a tiny bit.. maybe my mechanical gauge is no good.. :\
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I have a newly rebuilt engine showing low oil pressure
I have a tee for the idiot light sender and electric gauge sender
I pulled the filter
Drained it and cut it open
Looks clean inside, no particles
The oil doesn't look good though
I'll replace the oil
I think my next step will be
Ad a tee to install my autometer liquid filled gauge under the hood
Pulled the Vac pump
Verify free operation and of the oil pump and also that that pulley spins against the timing belt freely
Then use my pump priming adapter in a variable speed drill
Will it build pressure with the Vac pump out?
Jon
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I have had mechanical pressure gauges that read ~10 psi lower than actual.
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Measuring from the head or from the flange I'm only getting about 20-25psi cold start up and it goes down from there. If I get 25 psi cold start up at the flange doesn't that tell me that I'm having a problem before my crank and head. Wouldn't I be losing pressure from the oil pump or the vacuum pump?
I'm not sure how to check if I'm getting plenty of oil in the head.. if I pull the valve cover or look inside the oil fill cap while it's running there is oil. If I rev it while the caps off I can see it splattering around.
The wear on the bearings wasn't "excessive", but it was there.. I think they were all just old. Not sure if maybe I needed oversized bearings or not.. but they were worn down.. so I'd think that replacing them, and them being bigger then they were would show at least somewhat of an increase..?
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Still low oil pressure? Was the engine in the car or out of it when you did the work? Also since it is a TD engine it has piston cooling jets and those can stick open and cause LOW oil pressure too. I'll go back and read your thread again but did you replace the IM shaft bearings too? I guess only the outer, the inner IM shaft bearing has to be aligned very properly or you will have problems there as well, also it is fed oil from the flange directly so if its bad you get really low pressure reading, in fact the inner bearing condition has more impact on oil pressure reading due to its proximity to the pressure tap than the outer bearing. The grey coating is normal on the rod bearings and will be hard to wash off. Also if the readings at the head and the flange are the same it means the head is good and you have loss in the lower end, my bet is on the IM shaft bearings or the piston squirters.
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Thanks!
Replaced with the engine in the car. It really wasn't very hard. Also the reason I only did the outer IM bearing.
How do I check if the oil squirters are stuck open?
I'm going to pull the IM sprocket and shaft again enough that I can get my hand into the vacuum pump hole and feel the IM bearing for flaking. It looked okay from a visual inspection from the IM shaft hole with a light.
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Piston cooling jets wear out, sometimes get busted by an intermediate shaft being wrestled out and back into the engine while its in the car. They are usually pretty reliable though, mostly just need cleaning. Good luck.
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Alright, well I pulled the I shaft out enough to inspect the inner IM bearing.. it's very worn. No flaking but really worn. Checking for play there must be what felt like 1/16 to 1/8 play in the rear while holding the shaft in tight, so up-down play where the vacuum gear rides the shaft. I'm thinking I'll make a tool to replace the inner bearing and also swap out the shaft for my less worn one.. I think that's my problem.. right there.
Anyone have a tip for keeping the oil passage in the right place while fitting the new inner bearing?
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Grease. And continuous awareness of its orientation during installation. I would take off the oil filter flange while replacing that bearing, the hole in the bearing needs to line up with the hole in the block coming from the flange otherwise the bearing will be shot very quickly. The best way to install it is to pull it into the block rather than drive it in since you have a new outer bearing. Good luck and I think you found your problem.
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I found a machine shop local that will make me the die I need for around $30. Used to work beside them so they know me. :)
Do you I just need the shoulder of the die to be a little smaller then the outside diameter of the bearing and the smaller diameter to be a little smaller then the inside diameter of the tool?
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I would have the larger shoulder be a little larger than the OD of the bearing, ~.003" over. The smaller diameter being ~.005" smaller than the ID of the bearing so it won't bind in the bearing once it's home. Also on the inner bearing there is a groove in the bearing surface that goes from the hole to the edge of the bearing, that groove is there to provide oil to the gears that are next to that bearing. That groove must point towards the rear of the block upon installation otherwise the gears will wear out faster, I haven't ever seen or heard of those gears wearing out though.
Since I was conversing on the subject I decided to go look at my engine(It's in the middle of a rebuild, in pieces.)and saw that that bearing is the first bearing to get oiled and is fed directly from the filter flange and not the main oil gallery. After seeing that I am dead nuts sure your oil pressure will be 100% when you get it back together, in fact, I bet it will be around 90-100psi on cold start.
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Finally should have a chance to pull the new bearing into the block tomorrow. I have a tool made for the job. Will get you guys some pics of it for tomorrow.
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Nice!
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Alright, well got the inner IM bearing in. With the engine in the car... ugh, what a PITA. Anyways, after back together I'm getting 80 psi at cold start from 25! Woohoo! Warm idle was around 25 psi instead of 0. Very nice! Great success!
Here are a couple pictures of my tool..
It started out looking great, pulled the old bearing no problem.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o47/steevz/IMG_20120106_165214.jpg)
After pulling in the new bearing.. and my die being a little too tight it looked like this.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o47/steevz/IMG_20120107_111501.jpg)
I got the new bearing in.. although, if I had to do it again I'll get a few thousandths taken off the ID of the die and use a stronger brace on the block.
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Very nice job! Those bearings do shrink pretty good.
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I have noticed that after running the car hot.. and turning off the ignition.. oil starts leaking from the oil pan.. on the transmission side. I'm thinking it's those two painful bolts that are on the inside of the flange on the transmission. Whats the trick to tightening these guys up? An 1/4 elbow joint for the socket?
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A 1/4" drive 10mm wobble socket *not extension* is the only thing I have got to get in there. Sometimes use the wobble socket extension with the wobble socket on the one.
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I usually pull the engine to do that kind of work but when I put it back together I use the newer VW bolts with the 10mm hex head and the inner 5mm allen head so if I have to pull the pan again in the car I can use a ball head allen bit.
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Well, guess I should update.
Second day after having good oil pressure and driving the car to work.. KABOOM.
Timing belt and camshaft broke. Three bent valves.. piston virtually untouched. So, that was a lot of fun. I think my old HG was leaking oil anyways, so it was good that got replaced. Threw on another head, got the shims sized properly and now it's running great.. sounds like a diesel car instead of a tractor. :)
Only thing I've got to do now is fix the leaky IP. For the meantime I will just be putting an NA pump on. For this can I swap the LDA over to the other pump? Or should I just leave the vacuum line off or plug it in the intake manifold?
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Did you have oil pressure when it broke? Did you have a chinese belt on there or did something sieze up?
Feel bad for you, it seems every time I touch my jetta something else breaks to. I am now regretting not breaking the car down and restarting with a rebuilt tranny and an engine completely gone through.
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Yes I had oil pressure when it broke. I'm not sure what happened I should have replaced the belt when I was doing everything else but someone said the shims might have 'jumped' from too much clearance and the camshaft jammed up. There were indentations in 3 of the shims from the cam. It broke right inbetween the intake and exhaust for cylinder 1.
Anyways, I have the NA pump on now. When I start the car it starts idling high like 2k rpm lingers for a second then continues to climb until the car is turned off.. I turn the fuel screw out and then the car won't start. So I've backed it out some more and I'm trying to get the thing to run properly..
Ideas on why the IP might rev itself? I'm thinking max fuel screw might be wiggin out..
Update:
I have adjusted and re-adjusted the fuel screw so many times.. about 1/8 turn or less in each direction to try and pinpoint the spot where it runs away or doesn't start.. and there doesn't seem to be one. Right now it's starting, but will sit between 2000 and 3000 rpm. If I let out the clutch in gear it will go down and then come back out. My idle screw is almost all the way down. The throttle does nothing right now either.. if I step it to the floor it won't do go above 3000. Took it for a quick drive.. NO power.
Could this be from the timing being retarded? Or sound more like internal pump failure?
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If you had ALL the timing index parameters right dead on the button visually, including the Inj Pump index marks - it shouldn't be a timing issue.
Have you rechecked and verified all your parameters.
Just to process the eliminations.
You can adjust the Inj timing with the engine running by ear - slowly and steadily fore and aft - and see what you get from that.
Sounds like an issue with the governor or its adjustment, mostly.
Have you ever had the throttle lever/arm off (unbolted) from one of these Inj Pumps yet ?
Not necessarily this one in particular - just any 1 in general ?
It won't be real hard to do, a little more than meets the casual eye.
There are index marks on the stud and the lever - make note of them/scribe them/mark them. You might re-use that index if else fails otherwise.
You don't have to - and don't want to - completely remove the nut on top.
Just back it off close to the top of stud. The lever is spring loaded.
The lever is splined - the throttle shaft is splined.
You need to lift - and move - the lever - 1 notch counterclockwise.
Pull upwards on shaft nut while doing this to help keep shaft splines from being pushed down out of contact. You'll get the feel for it.
You can use a small blade flat screwdriver in the shaft end slot to help steady the alignment. Sometimes you'll wish you had 3-4 hands to wrench these things.
Tighten down nut and keep feel for alignment/engagement of splines.
Check your index marks now and see if you actually made the right progress.
Test run.
Might need to go 1 more notch same way.
But go 1 at a time and it will change some each time to gauge it.
I'd try that next.
Nothing to lose and no costs involved.
Where was your TD Inj Pump leaking from ?
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It looks like it leaking from all over the top seal. I think it's almost leaking everywhere.. maybe the mainshaft seal too.. and the throttle seal.
What it was doing is once the car was turned off it would fill the feed line with air. Then the car would need lots of cranking to get started even when hot/warm. I could see the fuel slowly moving down the feed line and once it reached the pump it would fire up. The return line was always constant foam too. I think the vane pump is getting weak as well.
I have never had a throttle shaft off.. if this pump was running before it was removed from the car.. I bought a complete engine and it was sitting with everything else.. I pulled it off today.. why might I have the change the lever a spline or two? I'm going to try it because I'm out of options.
I think I'm in time because there is NO white, gray, or black smoke. Nothing.. nice and clean.. just isn't running nice. No air though.. the intake and return lines are pure fuel.. which is nice to finally see.
Thanks for your help.. I'll give this a shot first thing tomorrow morning.
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Okay
If you heard the other engine running before with that Inj pump on it - it would be mysterious if it needed governor adjusting now.
If you didn't hear it run and see its proper operation before,
then anything could be possible about its past.
If it has been stored/sat for an extended time or in harsh conditions, it might be compromised internally.
These machines can be wonderful sometimes, and they can make you scratch your head sometimes. You have to just catch what they throw and work it out.
If you try adjusting the timing by hand, and try adjusting the governor index, and neither makes improvement - you've done about all that can be done other than having the Inj Pump disassembled and inspected. You've already tested the fuel metering screw.
Good Luck to you on it getting better soon.
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The pump was sitting on an engine I bought, previous buyer said he saw it running when before it got pulled ~8 years ago.
Has been stored in a heated garage since.
Edit: I'm going to try adjusting the governor index.. if that doesn't work.. then if i take the pump apart is there anything in particular I should look for?
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If the index adjustments make no gains -
You can try an ATF run/soak/run treatment on the pump and see if it helps.
After 8 years, the governor assy or internals may have varnished or gummed a little.
If after those things still no improvements, you could get schooled up on top cover removal and governor assemblies. One of the Governor Mod threads would be good reading / tutorial. And save everyone a lot of typing. lol
Never know how much is full truth, and how much is untold when you buy this stuff. Inj Pump could even be a victim of a GovMod gone bad in the past.
You never really know.
You wont need to remove the pump to get involved with the governor.
The seals on your TD pump could have been fixed left on the car. fwiw
Only exception is the cold start seals on backside next to engine.
I'd get a DGK 121 Bosch kit and a correct front seal, and jump on that TD pump right away.
Would try just a few more simple things on the NA pump, but not too much that would take away from time that could be spent on the TD pump. jmho
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^^^^^^ What he said!! ;D ;D
Especially the part about focusing on the TD pump. The reseal is relatively minor compared to trying to fix a messed up pump.
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Thanks. I pulled the NA pump back off and put the TD pump back on. Didn't take more then an hour. I'm going to get the kit and just reseal the TD pump. I will pull it to do it though.. may as well.
I noticed it's definitely the throttle lever seal leaking. Top seal and mainshaft seal are too I think. So I'll just seal it off the car next weekend. The NA pump had something crazy going on inside.
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The DGK 121 Bosch Kit comes with the incorrect front mainshaft seal for our VW's (too large). Be sure to specify you need the front seal for a VW 1.6 with the kit.
17mm Bosch #1 460 283 312 or equivalent
or
17mm Zexel #9 461 614 046 or equivalent
Later down the road if you want to get into more depth on Inj Pumps, you can use that NA as a guinea pig.
I've only done about 5 reseals on these Inj Pumps, and repaired a few others still on the car. Go ahead and start reading all up on the tutorials for doing the reseal. If there are still any left on here.
From something i recently read, all of Libby's fine work is no longer with us.
:o :'( >:( :(
Was going to do a pictorial walk-through on here after my last reseal -
don't remember if i did or not
so probably didn't
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I thought the DKG 126 was the proper kit.. DKG 121 is better?
Thanks, that's good to know.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=30649.0
It's a sticky in the FAQ section by our illustrious V. Waldon. Notice those initials? Hmmm. Fate.
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Oh yeah, I was thinking today.. the max fuel screw on my NA pump is not from the pump. It's from a pump I had in an 82 Vanagon and it was leaking so I swapped them. Could that be causing my issues with the NA pump? I was thinking maybe.. but I should have found the sweet spot with all the small turn and test runs I did.
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I thought the DKG 126 was the proper kit.. DKG 121 is better?
Thanks, that's good to know.
DGK 126 is for the NA basic pump.
One thing i know for sure - you won't get the boost aneroid (spaceship) o-ring/seals in that kit. And someday you might need them. Most do not replace these until they are defacto leaking. PITA to do these compared to all the rest.
These things i can't remember for sure - because i have yet to reseal a base NA pump - all have been TD or 88-92 Altitude Aneroid (TD lookalike) pumps :
Seems like my mind thinks the governor cover seal is shaped different.
And that the cold start o-rings are different.
Anyhow, if you have a TD pump - get the DGK 121
Its for the pumps with an aneroid on top.
About 1-2 dollars more , IIRC.
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The problem with your NA Pump definitely points to being governor related.
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Local supplier has them in stock. $17.30 for the DKG 121. $18 for the viton mainshaft seal.. so just under $50 with tax. Will pick them up Friday.
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Yeh the Bosch Brown Viton front seals are pricey rascals.
Been priced on them from 13-22 each.
The Zexel Black seal is usually from 5-10.
Side by side the Bosch seal looks a lot stouter and way more deluxe.
Not had any issues yet with Zexel seal tho.
But none of my people are using Bio either.
The DGK 121 comes with a Brown Viton front seal
.... but its 20mm
And they never want to trade them out. ::)
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Seems like my mind thinks the governor cover seal is shaped different.
And that the cold start o-rings are different.
The governor cover? I assume you just mean the pump lid/top? It is the same gasket between NA and TD. The cold start o-rings are also the same.
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The DKG 121 comes with a lot more pieces for the same price. The guy showed me both. I'll try and get him to trade. I'm not running bio so I'll try to just get the zexel seal. Thanks! :)
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The governor cover? I assume you just mean the pump lid/top? It is the same gasket between NA and TD. The cold start o-rings are also the same.
Yes, the top lid cover apparatus. Throttle shaft comes up through it.
I'm sure i was wrong on the seal for that part now after kicking in more memory. (2 more tokes)
Leaving us to have to trim all those nubs off is SO unthoughtful.
On a whim - about 2 years ago i bought 3 of the 126 kits thinking as long as i wasn't doing the aneroids all the time - save some bucks. Got the 126's for $10 each. 121's cost me 18-24 depending which channel.
On the next Altitude pump, i used a 126 kit.
One of the cold start seals didn't seem exactly match,
winged it anyway.
It leaked on bench test.
Had to open a 121 kit and get the right seal for it.
Thats where that sentiment came from.
Worth noting these TD and Altitude pumps i've done all have had
the fast idle rod/spring feature on the cold start.
And worth noting i've never done a Non-Aneroid pump.
I'm "thinking" that might be what divides them.
Being whether or not they have that fast idle feature.
Or it was just a bad day.
But i use nothing but 121's on Aneroid pumps since then.
and BTW -
The Zexel Black seal is Bosch of Japan
The Bosch Brown Viton seal is Bosch of Germany
Might try putting these 20mm Bosch Brown seals on eBay some time for half price. lol
Damm guys wouldn't get hurt by swapping me the 17's !
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Mine pump lacks the fast idle cold start. So now I don't know if the 121 cold start lever seal will fit, it's not leaking atm.
If the top seal is the same.. what about the throttle seal? I know mine is leaking. If I get the 121 and that doesn't fit.. I'll have the problem. :P
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The cold start would be the only 1 thing that "might have chance" to be a compromise.
I'd get the 121 kit, and then give them the pump number from your NA pump and ask for the outer cold start o-ring for it.
You'd be fully covered.
Might be a dollar at most.
Then you still get the Brown 20mm front main seal to try and work him to swap for a 17mm. And the aneroid parts.
The 126's i got had no front main seal.
Do you remember if the 126 he showed you had one ?
My "local" supplier is a 75 mile (120kms) roundtrip.
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The different cold start mechanisms still use the same seal. The seal seat is part of the pump body. not part of the flat machined face of the different advance mechanisms.
Fast idle or just regular advance, NA or TD. Same seal :).
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8V i think we're talking about 2 different things.
The one i had trouble with isn't the inner one where the cover meets the pump body like you describe.
It was the outer one.
Can't log in to Pbucket but maybe these will show up.
To clarify more - have you personally ever used a 126 kit to reseal one of these pumps with the fast idle cold start - and had no conflict with the outer cold start o-ring leaking ?
(http://i43.tinypic.com/l89rt.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/25qbzgp.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/bikkux.jpg)
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haha my bad BVZ.. Totally thought by the way you worded it.. that you meant the o-ring that fits in the pump.
No sorry, only done non fast idle on those seals.
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No Probo man.
Just trying to keep it strait.
The 121 kit does come with a lotta stuff.
I have a good collection of leftovers.
Now - "if" - the outer cold start o-ring is a bit diffy between fast idle, and non-fast idle, probably the 121 has both versions of o-rings. Thats just thinking out loud is all.
Still not swearing that it wasn't something that could just be chalked up to a bad day ... just sharing the experience.
But for safety sake, Steevz could get an extra one seperately for an NA type pump and be covered on all the bases.
I was almost going to reuse the old o-ring since it never leaked there before, but just couldn't cut the corner.
Since tinypic worked so well and easy, here's a couple more.
Pbucket has always been a burden for me to use.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/rh95ht.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/eslxxz.jpg)
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Great pics.. I'm not leaking from there so I'll probably just leave the o ring.
I had a question though.. the head I put on is from have NA. Are the TD and NA injectors any different?
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NA and TD injectors have different breaking pressures. The NA injectors pop at about 130bar while the TD injectors pop at 150bar.
There are others on here running NA injectors in TD engines without issue, you just have to time the pump to the injectors you are using. There undoubtedly was a reason why VW decided to use a different breaking pressure on TD applications though.
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The general idea is that they were worried about a secondary injection on the TD engines. Many have said this and IIRC there was a paper on it somewhere. Many others and I kind of thought it odd as many other engines from mercedes and others had a TD engine with less breaking pressure than VW's n/a
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Great pics.. I'm not leaking from there so I'll probably just leave the o ring.
Negative Steevo
Thats the only one you CANT fix on the car.
Put a new one, or it will be the next one to leak afterwards.
I had a question though.. the head I put on is from have NA. Are the TD and NA injectors any different?
Like they said
Same injector / nozzle - higher breaking pressure.
130-135 NA
155 TD
So you'd need to lower the timing to NA spec,
or at least down to .95 - 1.00
Best would be to put the TD's back in
or have the NA's pop pressure adjusted at a fuel shop to TD specs.
New heat shields under injectors any time they come out, is VW recommendation too.
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Awesome. I'm going to get some new heat shields friday.. and I'll clean and lap the TDs.. might get some new nozzles.. and then swap them out too.
Thanks! :)
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Alright, I got the new seals, gaskets, and heat shield..
I got two top cover gaskets.. The thin one is actually round to start off with and you need to fit it into the top cover.. without the numbs..and the other is thicker with the nubs that have to be cut off right? So which is better.. I'm thinking the thin one should just fit right in without the need to trim..
Next, the heat shields I got are Bosch OEM.. but they cost $6.50 each! I was expecting $4-8 total.. the guys at the fuel injection shop said these are stronger don't crack or deform when you torque down the injectors. He also said he's successfully reused them. So, should I take them back and just get some cheaper ones or is the information I received correct? You know, you get what you pay for.
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Alright, I got the new seals, gaskets, and heat shield..
Next, the heat shields I got are Bosch OEM.. but they cost $6.50 each! I was expecting $4-8.. the guys at the fuel injection shop said these are stronger don't crack or deform when you torque down the injectors. He also said he's successfully reused them. So, should I take them back and just get some cheaper ones or is the information I received correct? You know, you get what you pay for.
Blimey, I thought it was only UK stealership that charged that much per shield.
Contrary to what others say they can all be reused. Ask anyone who has reused them.
I reused my last set of 4, 14 times before one failed.
It failed outside whilst being reshaped. It does this because this action is the time of greatest stress, so if it reshapes, it will be good for the next use.
When these heatshields are put to use the they are being pushed the wrong way to crack.
VW says many things, be it lies, ignorance, or mistake. Did anyone read the page I posted from the official for-the-eyes-of-VWemployees-only maintenance manual?
Use a ball bearing to reform with a 19mm nut for support and a pair of clamping pliers for consistancy. Only deform for about half to 1mm gap when shield sat on the end of an injector.
Keep using same shield in one hole only because an eyeglass will show you that each new shield wears the seating in the head away as they are almost as unique as fingerprints
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ouch !
They used to be $1 each for a long time.
Have heard that they were going to go up - Bosch injector nozzles went up a bit recently too. Retail shops are always higher - but you get them in your hands right then.
I have re-used heat shields before too.
On the same injector going back in the same head.
Have a few sets in stock on hand - might try to see if anyone still has them for $1 and stock up more. I'd rather use new for $1 than reshape old ones - but the reshape process is good info.
As far as i know the nubbed seal is the only one in the kit intended for the top housing. The 121 kit is actually put together to service Cummins VE pumps - its just the closest kit to our application. Thats why it comes with a 20mm front main seal - and the nubbed top housing seal.
Get a FRESH razor and spend some time trimming carefully.
Did they swap you a 17mm front seal ?
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I just bought the seals I needed and the front seal (only had the viton and stopped selling the black ones 4-5 years ago). So it was $30 and some change. I'm just heading out to pull the pump and reseal it. I'll update.
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Steevz, have you ever replaced the rear pump head o-ring before ?
Where cast iron pump head meets the aluminum pump body.
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Nope, but I hear that one should definately be done off the pump so it can be upright when installing new O-ring. I have that O ring and plan to change it out. Didn't get to my pump tonight.. opened my NA pump and check out the governor so I know what size of shims to pick up tomorrow.
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Okay, didn't know if you were going to do that one or not.
I've done several still on the car.
Off the car is more convenient, thats all.
Clean pump head real well, and light coat of grease afterwards on the whole cast iron.
(Or to back up a little - if the cast iron is canada rust rough - don't grease the cast iron - wrap around/cover it with 2" masking tape. Don't let the o-ring contact anything that isnt nice and smooth and slick.)
Get the pump indexed in-between cycles so that the plunger is all the way down - very important.
Some use a bolt in the timing access hole to keep the plunger tensioned as they loosen the head bolts - and not a bad idea. I have done it with and without.
Main thing is to loosen the head bolts only enough to access the o-ring.
Its built into the design.
I wouldn't stretch the o-ring over the pump head in a cold environment - it could possibly split or break.
Before inserting the new o-ring - lube it with light coat of grease too.
So it slides gently over the pump head.
If you have any exposed threads on the head bolts where the o-ring will be going - wrap a little tape around those threads before letting the o-ring come in contact to them.
After the o-ring is in its new full position - i let it sit for an hour or so to regain its composure after the stretching. Then reassemble.
You can use this link/method as a "general guide".
http://crustycrank.com/resealinjpump.htm
His recipe is missing a few ingredients on the pump head o-ring proceedure.
I added those ingredients above.
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Awesome, thanks. My pump is rust free! :)
I'm going to go tackle this pump. Will update.
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Woo! 8)
Pump is sealed! NO foam in the return line, car starts RIGHT up.. no more air coming out of the pump! Also successfully GOV MODDED my pump! This is will be fun now. :)
So, I do have a couple questions though:
1) I read that I need to vent my valve cover somewhere other then back to the intake?
2) I need to increase boost? Add manual boost controller? I have a T3 turbo.
I have an EGT gauge that is going to be installed.. I've already installed my head unit to my center console so my gauges will already have a home! :)
Any info greatly appreciated.
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Valve cover vent should stay going to the intake - no reason to change it. There were problems with the very early NA engines ingesting engine oil and running away but it shouldn't be an issue if you have the black plastic cover on the cam and a proper oil separator on the valve cover.
Manual boost controller is what you are looking for to increase boost. There's a few styles around. "Bleeder" ones are the most common to pop up on eBay but they're not much good over 15PSI or so. The better ones have a spring and a ball, and only open at a set pressure. Search for "NXS MANUAL BOOST CONTROLLER" on eBay and you'll find a good one for about $20.
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Valve cover vent should stay going to the intake - no reason to change it. There were problems with the very early NA engines ingesting engine oil and running away but it shouldn't be an issue if you have the black plastic cover on the cam and a proper oil separator on the valve cover.
Exactly, Steevz follow this advice.
To do otherwise would be like deliberately spiling 5% of your diesel fuel on the floor each time you fillup [ %'s may vary etc ;D]
Here's the basic shield reforming technique [maybe I'll insert this in my earlier comment]
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3639/meteredreshapeofshim.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/709/meteredreshapeofshim.jpg/)
FKN PURE GENIUS!!!
i love you dude.. just re-form them about 1mm back from where it was? then keep them matched to the injector/hole they came from?
i really LOVE this forum, its the best forum on the interwebz.. ive learned soo much knowledge from you guys, its GREAT. when i found this forum, injection pumps SCARED the daylights out of me. would never think of adjusting one, let alone modifying one internally! i can take apart and modify bosch VE pumps in my dreams ;)
really tho guys.. we have got ourselves a GEM of a forum, and many AWESOME, extremely knowledgeable users.. as well as a GIRL!! (smart and good looking, rare package)
(i really hope my comments about you dont bother you, Jess.. i just think its soo cool that you like cars, and participate in most of our discussions, as well as NOT AFRAID to dig into a car, and get elbow deep in grease.. i LOVE seeing girls work on cars, especially ones that know what they are doing! anyways, keep up the good, no, GREAT work!)
wow, got a bit of topic there.. sorry about that.. was just admiring our wonderful forum!
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Finally some Kudos for Mark and his re-use of the have to replace heat shields. Moderator can we get that picture as a sticky? I have used this method ever since I saw it posted either here or the other place about a year ago.
Now IF I could just stop loosing that ball bearing to the bottom of my tool box I would be fine. Well better.
DAS