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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: belchfire on November 26, 2011, 12:11:37 am
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Well I managed to get a couple of trouble free weeks out of it before the next problem started. When It's cold, It starts as good as a cold diesel might be expected to. If I go to the store about 10 miles and shut it down then I'm stuck. I can go to the post office (4 miles) and it will fire back up. I can go to work and it will fire up to go home. I'm not switching to the SVO yet so we'll pretend that it's a straight diesel. I have a heater on the fuel filter and heaters on the injector lines. I installed an electric fuel pump between the filter and the IP. This system has been working fairly well for the past year.
I had the pump rebuilt last year to the tune of $600. Something bad happened at red line last summer and I think that a couple of the piston skirts got bent so it rattles and the compression is 400-325-350-425.
I've re-done the injectors. 1 was leaking between the halves and 1 was out of spec. The idle is erratic. Doing fine when cold but going way up when hot-sometimes. I know things sound bad (and I am putting in new pistons this winter) but it shouldn't start when cold either. If I have the block heater going for a couple of hours in the morning (fuel cold) it fires right up and runs great. I'm thinking that it's a viscosity issue. And maybe, more correctly, a charge pump issue. Or the delivery line check valves? There may have been some cavitation just before the filters clogged up so that may have helped. Rabbitman's got something on IP pressure. Where do I check that?
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I think you have a glow plug issue. Something to do with the sensor that's telling the glow plugs to turn on... Get a lead with alligator clips on both ends. next time it won't start, hotwire the glow plugs off the battery for 10 or 15 seconds and see if it will start. id engines need the heat...
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Had a similar issue with a IDI ford a few years ago. If I poured cold water on the injection pump it would fire up again.
Are filter and line heaters on when running diesel? If so, then try no heat and see if it starts hot.
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Glow plugs are great. I did the individual wires some time ago so I could test them separately and they're fine. As for the sensor, it works the other way if anything, coming on even when it's warm. Regardless, if it was the plugs, then cold starting would be impossible too.
I'll try the cold water trick. There's just the 1 heater at the filter which doesn't boost it that much. The ones on the lines are after so don't affect the incoming fuel. The bigger question is; if the cold water trick works, then why?
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If I poured cold water on the injection pump it would fire up again.
Do you drive same IP now or fix?
belchfire
I`ll change all 3 lines to clear ones.
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I'll try the cold water trick. There's just the 1 heater at the filter which doesn't boost it that much. The ones on the lines are after so don't affect the incoming fuel. The bigger question is; if the cold water trick works, then why?
Well sounds like I'm barking up the wrong tree As my F-350 had a heated tank. HOH lines and a FPHE right before the pump.
WVO temp was 160-180f going into my pump. My theory was ( on my F-350) hot fuel + a high milage pump created too much internal clearance within the pump somewhere.
Dose'nt seem to be the same since you have low heat at filter and recent pump rebuild.
Do you drive same IP now or fix?
I replaced the pump with a used one.
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I was having an issue some months back with hot starting and a slight delay. For me I redid the wiring and added an extra ground from the top starter bolt to the battery.
Are you sure your starter is turning things over just as fast as normal or are we talking full speed turnover and not even a sign of catching?
I also had that heat soak thing happen on my old f250 with a bad rebuilt pump. Haven't experienced the same thing on the vw.
On my truck with that bad pump it would be ok cold and then take a bit longer but start on a real short stop and restart. The heat soak sets in as the heat transfers with the hood down like say 20 minutes later after shutdown and the truck would just spin over without a sign of life.
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Do a voltage drop test on the starting circuit. I had the exact same problem and it turned out to be a few bad connections and wires. "They look good" isn't good enough. Neither is a resistance test.
If dumping cold water on the pump gets to to start you likely need a new pump head.
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Cranking speed is acceptable. I have a Bosch rebuilt starter and the batt cables go directly to it. Just for fun, I put the charger on 200 amp boost which cranked it somewhat faster and it eventually fired. I'm theorizing that the faster charge pump speed overcame enough of the leakage to supply the main pump. Could it be a sticking pressure relief valve? Looks like a complete teardown to fix it. The SVO temp is fairly hot when I'm running that but I have no problem with that system. I'm wondering how much of this is related to WVO. I have a clean source of non-hydrogenated oil, heat it to remove any water and filter it through a 10 micron sock. Does processing it into bio-diesel solve gumming problems? I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.
This has been another experiment in alternative fuel vehicles starting with alcohol in the '80s. 90 mpg (effective) without a loss of power is great, but doesn't produce any financial gain when I have to rebuild everything every 6 months. I was hoping to perfect the system so I could put a mercedes 300 td in my truck. Seriously reconsidering gas.
I'm on vacation for the next week so there will be an obvious break. I'll tackle the issue upon return. Feel free to comment.
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i would filter it lower than 10 microns..
im gonna bet that what tyler said is accurate. sounds like your pump head is shot.
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Does processing it into bio-diesel solve gumming problems? I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.
I did the wvo thing for about a year and then switched over to making bio-diesel. I still get a little glycerin fallout in my filters, but have had fewer problems.
And yes its a time consumning pain in the a$$ to make bio-diesel, but only cost me about $1.25 a gallon to make vs $4.00 for diesel.
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Time is still money. Running around town picking up 5 gallon jugs or pumping it out of their waste bin into something of your own all should be factored in there. Then the mess around the house, the smell on a hot sunny day like that waste bin area you get it from. Phew. Been through it all with my son and not willing to go back now that I own a diesel of my own.
He still does the collect and filter thing at his place and says he spends the whole weekend working up 100 gallons at a time. Being he is a high paid engineer his time is probably worth 25 bucks an hour and at 20 hours of time that exceeds the cost from the pump. But if your time is cheap then have a day. I can't afford the time with all the other projects I have going so I just pay the man at the pump and try to get the best MPG I can.
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Cranking speed is acceptable.
It doesn't cost anything to actually check if there is a voltage problem although the charger does likely rule out that problem.
I would just manually power the glowplugs for a few seconds and you should be on your way. Easiest way is to just unplug the temp sensor and leave it unplugged. You'll quickly get a feel for how long to leave them on for.
It's probably a worn pump head if it is a problem with the pump and the only cure is a replacement. The other possibility is the starting fuel is inadequate. You would need to have the pump tested at a shop. For what it's worth a replacement pump would probably be easier.
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I get my oil once a week on my way home from work. Heating & filtering (cost of bags) isn't that much. The time spent pouring it into containers & filtering it could be better spent in front of the TV with a cold one, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I figure (minus the rebuilds) that it runs about $0.25/ gal. However if I have to do a $600 every year, then I might side with the to hell with it crowd. I thought that the Bosch pumps were suppose to be tough enough to handle veg oil while some others weren't. Once again, if the glow plugs were bad then cold starting would suffer. It fires up in the morning and when it's time to leave work, just don't stop along the way. Still does 80 no prob. Would a bad head do that? Found a plug opposite the fuel inlet. Is that the charge pump relief? It's round with 2 flats -10mm wrench.
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How much WVO are you running per tank? That stuff is hard on pumps for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that even at 210* its viscosity is still too high. The VE pump is pretty durable, but not bullet proof. I suspect that the fuel is not hot enough to light off in a luke warm motor. Try extra glow plug time and see if that works. Try a shot of WD-40 as starter fluid (NOT ETHER) and see if it pops right off, next time. If that works you could always rig up a WD-40 injector system like old John Deere tractors did with ether.
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The two flat sided round plug on the engine side of the IP is the pressure regulator. Unless you have a gauge on the IP don't fool with it. Trust us. Just do a search here for pressure regulator and see what some have done by messing with it. Me included here.
If you have a gauge on it then at Idle you should be at somewhere between 38-43 depending on how good your pump is. If off then tap on the pressure regulator pin in the center of the bolt you describe. Needs only small taps and if you go to far you remove it and start over. After you drive the pins and spring out the bottom and reassemble it.
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I'm running straight diesel during the problem times. I only use SVO when it's warmed up and going down the road. Actually had to use either to get home once. Buy for now, back in a week.
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Are you running any WVO on the trips where you are having trouble? It may be that your injector tips and GPs are covered with un or semi burned glycerine thereby contributing to your hot start problems.
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Once again, if the glow plugs were bad then cold starting would suffer. It fires up in the morning and when it's time to leave work, just don't stop along the way.
You're missing my point. The time that glowplugs are on is determined by the temperature of the engine. When the engine is cold the glow plugs are on for a long time. When the engine is warm but not up to operating temperature the glowplug cycle is reduced. This is fine for an engine in good health, but once you start getting into pump and/or engine problems increasing the time that the glowplugs are on serves as a nice bandaid.
If your problem is a compression issue caused by sticking rings then you should be rebuilding the engine before the stuck rings wear the engine beyond rebuildable limits, assuming replacement engines are hard to find in your area.
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I have to agree that this sounds an awful lot like glow plugs that are not getting hot enough. It doesn't sound like they have that trouble when first needed and the engine is cold. Just when it is slightly warm but not to warm to start without them. Very gray area, I think my car will do the same if I only went a few miles and shut it off. But when I do my GP's seem to stay on the same amount of time as initial start. I listen for the clunk of the Ford relay to tell me when they are done.
So to me this is an issue of clean the plugs or swap the relay or temp sensor out. Or as some have suggested hard wire it to a new system that you have total control of. Then it wouldn't matter if the engine had a little heat on it. You would still hold the button the same length of time as you did initially and all should be fine.
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Yup. I still think it's a temp sensor that's not running the glow plugs long enough when the engine is partially warm. Humour us. Next time it won't start run a hot wire from the battery to the glow plugs and see if it will start.
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wvo is nasty stuff. I had a bad experience with that stuff in my jetta and old f250. i have to wonder if it broke crap free in the tanks so i was initially having to change filters.
i also would work the engine on diesel before shutting everything off.
it gummed the hell out of both pumps and luckily i was able to get them back by getting atf inside them to sit for a day, then get running, sit for another day and change the filters again.
the truck recovered and i never broke the pump open.
the jettas pump i did break down due to fuel running away from the pump, and i was going to rebuild another pump and reseal anyway. but it also was a little brat to start compared to normal.
when i finally got inside the pump everything was clean except for the vane wheel at the front of the pump. i could barely bude it with a screwdriver before removing those parts. and when i did i found the crusty brown stuff all over those areas.
once started i cannot say that i noticed any issues running that pump like that for a few weeks though? still had pulling power up top, etc.
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Yup. I still think it's a temp sensor that's not running the glow plugs long enough when the engine is partially warm. Humour us. Next time it won't start run a hot wire from the battery to the glow plugs and see if it will start.
OR just cycle the GPs by turning the key off and then on again as many times as you like. No need to even get out of the car.
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I'm back. Some interesting theorys but I'm having a hard time with the GP one. This is not a cold start issue. My house is at the top of a 700' climb and the fan kicks in when I get there. I was under the impression that the temp sensor would not let the relay work at that temp as the engine was warm enough. I will, just to humor you guys, hot wire the glow plugs after I shut it down when I get home tomarrow.
The charge pump relief valve is a complete cartridge and can be removed and installed without ruining some sort of adjustment, right? I've got a Harbor Freight ultrasonic cleaner thar I could soak it in and see if it it was gummed up. Lord knows that I am familiar with the gum issue. You can't get that stuff off with a jack hammer. It makes sense that the charge pump vanes could be sticky but then we go back to the no cold start problems. I'll try the cold water trick on the pump too. Nothing to loose.
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Yes the pressure regulator comes out as a unit. You have access to the bottom of the piston once it is out. You can use a small screwdriver or pick to push on it to see if it is free, no need to take it apart.
It might be easier to just unplug the temp sensors rather than hot wiring the glowplugs. You only need to unplug one but I forget which is which and for this test you don't need a temp gauge anyways.
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Belchfire, What we are thinking on the glowplugs is more of a secondary problem in the system. Yes the engine is screaming hot, your fan is coming on for crying out loud. Do you have trouble starting it then? I didn't think that was the problem. More like when you don't get it that hot and the sensor or relay is actually the trouble not so much the plugs.
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Cranking speed is acceptable. I have a Bosch rebuilt starter and the batt cables go directly to it. Just for fun, I put the charger on 200 amp boost which cranked it somewhat faster and it eventually fired.
I just re-read your post. I think you should do a voltage drop test on the system when the engine is hot.
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Glow plug voltage is about 10v. Not great but I have fast plugs and a slow relay so they're plenty hot. Doesn't start. Poured cold water (45*) over the pump and with the advance pulled out it fired right up. It seemed to turn over a little quicker too. Forgot to mention that it has erratic idle patterns. sometimes normal & sometimes fast. Re-did the injectors and found 2 weak ones. BTW NAPA bumped the price of the shields from $1.09 to $4.00 ea so I won't get them there any more. It seemed to run a little better until this problem surfaced. It came on rather suddenly which is somewhat baffling. There's a good possibility that there was some charge pump cavitation when I had a lot of filter clogging. My SVO tank is fabricated from new stainless steel and it has a teflon line to the filter. Most of the clogging was from waxing that more heat solved. Do you think that the head could be affected too? Prothe (E-Bay) has a pump gasket rebuild kit and for an additional $75 has a new charge pump and head. Since I will be getting some new pistons from him anyway, maybe I should make this a package deal. I had the pump re-built about 20K ago so it's essentially a New pump. I tore apart an old one and it isn't as bad as it might seem. Meanwhile, I'm carrying a galon of water in case I have to stop along the way.
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Glow plug voltage is about 10v. Not great but I have fast plugs and a slow relay so they're plenty hot. Doesn't start. Poured cold water (45*) over the pump and with the advance pulled out it fired right up. It seemed to turn over a little quicker too. Forgot to mention that it has erratic idle patterns. sometimes normal & sometimes fast. Re-did the injectors and found 2 weak ones. BTW NAPA bumped the price of the shields from $1.09 to $4.00 ea so I won't get them there any more. It seemed to run a little better until this problem surfaced. It came on rather suddenly which is somewhat baffling. There's a good possibility that there was some charge pump cavitation when I had a lot of filter clogging. My SVO tank is fabricated from new stainless steel and it has a teflon line to the filter. Most of the clogging was from waxing that more heat solved. Do you think that the head could be affected too? Prothe (E-Bay) has a pump gasket rebuild kit and for an additional $75 has a new charge pump and head. Since I will be getting some new pistons from him anyway, maybe I should make this a package deal. I had the pump re-built about 20K ago so it's essentially a New pump. I tore apart an old one and it isn't as bad as it might seem. Meanwhile, I'm carrying a galon of water in case I have to stop along the way.
Glad to here the cold water trick helped to get it started, and I also carried water around untill I found another pump for my F-350 IDI.
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The prothe pump head will not run any better, if it runs at all. Do not make it a package deal. Who rebuilt this pump when you had it done? If it was anyone but prothe then I would take it back to them and show them what is going on.
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If your problem is a compression issue caused by sticking rings then you should be rebuilding the engine before the stuck rings wear the engine beyond rebuildable limits, assuming replacement engines are hard to find in your area.
I have been inside a a hundred (+/-) of these motors and never seen one with stuck rings. I do, however, see lots and lots of them with worn out rings.
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Got another set of pistons from Prothe. I'm gathering all I'll need to tear it down just as soon as it's bad enough weatherwise where I'll be driving the 4x4. I really want to see what's going on inside. I've only got 20k on the rebuild so stuck rings will have to be from the SVO which will be a great disappointment. I'll mic the skirts to confirm whether or not they got bent when it pre-ignited.
The pump guys said to run ATF through it and then (if that didn't work) to take the guts out of the fuel shutoff solenoid, kill it in gear, and try to start it again. Didn't get around to that because it hot starts fine on SVO ??? One last clue, sometimes it will go into a high idle like maybe 12-1500 rpm and if I shut it down then it's all over. Even the water trick didn't work last time. The pump will go back to the re-builders just so we can see what's going on. Stay tuned.
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eww, you ran SVO in this engine? thats probably why it doesnt start very well. did you use it as your primary fuel, or just your hot fuel?
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Hot fuel only. Minimum temp of 140*. SVO runs great when it runs. Same power, much better smell and it's free. Wether or not it's OK in the long run is another question.
I keep going back to the viscosity thing as hot diesel is the only time it doesn't start. We'll see.