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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: srgtlord on November 07, 2011, 08:49:53 pm
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Alright, I tried to use a punch inside the little hole onb the back of the metal engine cover on the back of the camshaft ghear, I attempted to use a 2 arm gear puller with no sucess and I tried various other wacks and pokes with no sucess, How do you get the darned gear off? Im tried to pull the head on the spare engine that came with my car 3 years ago to check for any issues. Any advice is welcome.
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Loosen the bolt a thread or two and then gently tap the pulley around the edge.
Chances are its just stuck on, its only a pressure fit! :)
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It's amazing how well they stay on there. I put a new gear on a new cam last year during my build, and even before torqueing it to specifications, I loosened the bolt and tried to remove it and it was SOLID. It eventually came off with a few hard whacks.
Maybe try using some PB blaster and some heat.
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I second the PB or brake fluid and some long soak times the the quick heat and whack it methods. There is no Keyway on it so you might try a whack in the 90 degree direction. A rotational hit, just be sure not to use the outside of the gear teeth. One of those holes in the pulley itself. Big flat punch or a bolt. BFH recommended here with good eye on where it is to connect to punch or bolt. No Knuckle busting please.
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i always had good luck just tapping it with a hammer
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Any penetrating oil residue will help the cam slip.
Just make certain that you remove it all before you go to put it back together!
I usually just hit it with a hammer and brass punch. Sometimes you really have to give'r
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I see there is some confusion on how to do this. Loosen the bolt about 1/8" and give the sprocket a sharp rap with a small steel or brass hammer on the back side of the cam sprocket parallel with the centerline of the cam at the very edge of the rim. The sprocket is retained by the taper and is designed NOT to come loose. You will have to "persuade" it by the whack with a small hammer. It does not take much, but the rap MUST be sharp. A soft hammer will not do it. Part of what makes the taper release is that the tapered hole flexes as the blow from the hammer momentarily deforms the sprocket as it "rings".
When removing the IP sprocket, take some tension with the puller and whack the back of the sprocket (gently) and/or tap the big center bolt in the puller. Be judicious with the force of the hammer, but the rap must be sharp. Like you were striking a dinner bell. I usually hold the hammer with 2 fingers when I do the pump sprocket.
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I would advise not trying to aim the hammer to hit the cam sproclet because you are likely to miss and hit something else and cause unnecessary damage. There is a hole through the sheet metal plate that you can place a punch through onto can sprocket (a round file works well in a pinh). You hit the punch, not the sprocket.
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Are you serious? The sprocket is a huge target. If you can't hit it you have no business owning tools. Besides you aren't driving railroad spikes or breaking up a concrete driveway. A small ball peen and 2 fingers will usually do it. If the cover is in the way, hold the cover tight up against the sprocket and hive them both a whack, just be sure not to bend the cover. Hit it in a spot that is flush with the rim of the sprocket. You guys are making way too big a deal out of this.
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Toby chill out man. Like everything there is generally more than one way to accomplish the same thing in the end. If the pulley comes off intact, who cares how its done? (Within reason).
There is no need for such behavior. You stated your way on what to do, and someone else stated their's.. Is it necessary to go after someone for it?
Being polite always wins over being rude, try it sometime.. It just might work out for you.
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Sorry if I seemed harsh. So much of this stuff gets turned into hammered buffalo s#*t because young/inexperianced guys break things trying to get stuff apart. Any technique other than a hammer tap to unseat the taper is likely damage the sprocket to some degree and the hammer tap is so quick, easy, and safe. I may make a video of the correct method and post the link.
FWIW using a puller on a taper such as a Mazda rotary flywheel will never get one off w/o breaking something, but one hammer blow will pop it off in 1/2 a second. Tapers sometimes grip tighter when the puller is used on the wrong spot. A hammer blow will virtually always do the trick.
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I haven't had much trouble with my VW responding to the sharp rap of a hammer or the first snap of the wrench but it has to be clean and quick and above normal torque it seems. To get my cam or IP pulley off all it do is loosen the nut a bit like described here and pop it one. But that wasn't the case the very first time. I had a gear pull on the front of the IP pulley and had it tensioned up real tight before I finally resorted to the hammer under torque technique. With removal being a near monthly exercise it comes off clean now with a lot less effort.
In my beginner days on extremely rusted bolts in MI my dad showed me the wrench alternative. First the vice grips then if that failed the torch and chisel on a tangent whack. I have had to use that on some VW bolts like the hex heads that are all rounded out because the PO used the wrong kind of tip on the bolt. A hex not a torx bit for example.
Getting anything unstuck is an art and science combo. You want to preserve the bolt for reuse but sometimes it just has to be hashed to remove it. At least this guy has replacements.
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After loosening the bolt, I like to wedge a couple of screwdrivers behind the cam gear (where I can't reach it with the hammer). This puts a little pre-load tension on the back side of the gear. Then I whack it with a brass hammer where I can reach it.
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VW put a hole in the sheet metal plate behind the cam sprocket specifically for a punch and a hammer so why not use it? Hitting the rim of the cam sprocket directly with a hammer may distort a few sprocket teeth and cause a raised sharp edge. If the timing belt rides off center and hit that sharp edge, the belt gets chewed up. Do you really want that? ::)
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You do raise a very good point sir.
Typically though we tuners like to undo what the manufacturer has put in place ;)
I doubt even the VW techs back in the day took the time to grab the hammer and punch from the toolbox ;) lmao. Jusssayin'
If you are aware of the dangers, it can be easily achieved with the tap of a hammer.
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Use a hammer from behind.
Hit the tin. Remove little hex socket bolt that holds the tin still first, then the tin is free to flex up to the pulley.
Bolt only needs a couple of turns slackening, else some have apparently knocked the end off a cam :o
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Use a hammer from behind.
Hit the tin. Remove little hex socket bolt that holds the tin still first, then the tin is free to flex up to the pulley.
Bolt only needs a couple of turns slackening, else some have apparently knocked the end off a cam :o
Let's not talk about that........ :'(
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Use a hammer from behind.
Hit the tin. Remove little hex socket bolt that holds the tin still first, then the tin is free to flex up to the pulley.
Bolt only needs a couple of turns slackening, else some have apparently knocked the end off a cam :o
Hit the tin? And end up with a bent and dented tin that won't look right forever after? Was that said with tongue in cheek? :P
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It won't dent the tin. Its laid up tight to the cam gear. It does not take a hard blow, just a sharp one to remove the cam gear. You are not driving railroad spikes; its more like ringing a bell.
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Sharp blow to the outside of the cam gear works just as well to break the taper free. From my experience, the cam gear is brittle enough that it will chip before mushrooming... not that either one is necessarily a good thing.
Chris
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I was scared to hit it with a hammer so I used a gear puller and a blowtorch. It was a PITA
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a blowtorch.
:o
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I was scared to hit it with a hammer so I used a gear puller and a blowtorch. It was a PITA
Less scary than a hammer for sure ;)
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Pending how hot things were I'd be wary of using that sprocket over.. Maybe even the cam..
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A puller is the wrong tool to use on a tapered fit because it pulls straight out. The force may be tremendous and may weaken the sprocket. A hammer is the right tool and the spot to hit is one of the ribs where it is strongest (with a punch through the hole in the sheet metal). No worry of damaging the sprocket teeth. Hitting the teeth, which is on the biggest o.d, maybe too much of an angle. VW put the hole in the sheet metal (further in diameter wise) so the angle is correct when hit with a punch/hammer.
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The whole point is that using a METAL hammer will shock it into popping right off, just hit the back of it at a slight angle so it won't even touch the teeth.
I used to think a rubber hammer was the trick since it wouldn't dent anything.......now I use a metal hammer and every time I wonder why the gear is so loose, I torque the bolt to 45ft-lbs and it pops off really easy.
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variety is the spice of life so another method....
I've damaged a pulley by getting too enthusiastic with a particularly recalcitrant pulley taper so changed tact.
Slacken nut
I use a wide (4in) brick bolster chisel to act as a lever to apply a little force behind the pulley to lever it away from the engine then give the bolt head a sharp tap.
Maybe not ideal? I'll try the punch through hole technique next time.
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I just do it the way the Bentley manual says to do it... Figure they know what they are talking about.
"Loosen the camshaft drive belt sprocket bolt by 1/2 turn. Loosen the sprocket from the camshaft by tapping the back side of the sprocket with a drift through the hole in the rear drive belt cover."
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Well now I know ;D
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Well now I know ;D
Can YOU say Dead Horse??
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The cam sprocket is not all that strong, it's not steel but pot metal or aluminum? When you put a puller on it or pry on it or hammer on it at the o.d., there is a lot of leverage and the sprocket may not survive as you have found out. The punch and hammer through the hole hitting the sprocket rib is the way to go if you want to avoid possible damage.
variety is the spice of life so another method....
I've damaged a pulley by getting too enthusiastic with a particularly recalcitrant pulley taper so changed tact.
Slacken nut
I use a wide (4in) brick bolster chisel to act as a lever to apply a little force behind the pulley to lever it away from the engine then give the bolt head a sharp tap.
Maybe not ideal? I'll try the punch through hole technique next time.
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The cam sprockets are sintered iron or steel, not pot metal. Weak and brittle but great for making cheap parts that are better than castings but not as good or expensive as machined parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering
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I just do it the way the Bentley manual says to do it...
real men don't use a manual ;)
well, not until we've lost our temper and broken some expensive bits first
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I just do it the way the Bentley manual says to do it...
real men don't use a manual ;)
well, not until we've lost our temper and broken some expensive bits first
HERE HERE!!! Let's have a beer!
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Seems that I use my manual for corrective process. In that I refer to it to figure out how come what I am doing is not working. Then there is this light bulb moment and I go back to it once I figure what I was doing wrong.
So I'll raise one to the real men learning after the parts are broken and tempers have flared. BTDT. A Lot
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The vanagon doesn't have a drift hole in the timing cover. Where on the sprocket does the drift touch?
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Out on the edge where the belt rides. I was trying to pull a hydro camshaft in the boneyard yesterday and I couldn't pop the blasted gear off. I eventually just gave up because this one had a chipped timing slot, so it was really no better than the one I was going to replace anyway. I never had any problem popping any of the one I had put on...
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Preload tension with a screwdriver on the backside and then tapping the sprocket with hammer worked like a charm.
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Preload tension with a screwdriver on the backside and then tapping the sprocket with hammer worked like a charm.
thats a good way to break the snout off the cam too. my grandpa has done it with a cam, and an injection pump..
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I broke the snout of a cam by not preloading the sprockets opposite side and whacking the backside of the sprocket,.
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holy *** guys. Only on vwdiesel.net would you find three pages on how to remove a CAM GEAR ::)
loosen bolt, hit with hammer.
Done!!!!
I agree with Toby, if you can't do this, put the tools down.
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holy *** guys. Only on vwdiesel.net would you find three pages on how to remove a CAM GEAR ::)
loosen bolt, hit with hammer.
Done!!!!
I agree with Toby, if you can't do this, put the tools down.
To be fair some of the problems rest with current or PO's all but welding the pulley on with glues and obscene graunching up of the bolt.
It's only got to grip stronger than a snatched rubber timing belt, not a high tensile high powered motor cycle chain :o. Just do a good prep job, and finger tight will grip like a vice.EDIT Ha ha, don't leave it at finger tight though ::)
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To be fair not all three pages are about how to remove the cam gear. We digressed and bunny trailed big time on this one. Maybe we need an Icon for that, more than two twists from topic and the icon pops up on the main page.