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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ibizz on October 03, 2011, 10:24:26 am
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hi again people
not first questions here about it , but since then the project stop becouse another priorities
now ive almost all stuff to turboed my 1y engine with vnt 15
the questions now is did anione that turboed same atmosferic engine bother changing timing and lower cr ?
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my vnt15 build, i used the same compression and timing as a n/a.. worked fine.. my engine would benefit from more timing tho, i think..
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thanks
same mecanic says that beter redard or advanced time , becouse of turbo but i dont know why ..
thats why im asking
how do you control your vnt geometry ?
i think il just change the vacuum acuateur for 1 pression wastegate .
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did you calibrate the injectors ?
do you think its worth calibrate injectors for use with na pump ?
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use all specs like a TD engine.
timing near to 1mm, injectors at minimum 155bar.
search for some threads regarding vnt control,its well discussed here.
1Y is almost the same as aaz,so no worry for compression and such...
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also, your mechanic is telling you the mods needed for gas engines, these are nothing like that ;)
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did you calibrate the injectors ?
do you think its worth calibrate injectors for use with na pump ?
130, or 135 bar injectors will both work just fine with an n/a or TD pump.. you just have to run a LITTLE more conservative timing on n/a injectors..
155bar injectors do atomize the fuel better, but either work just fine. ive never noticed a power difference with the different injectors ive run..
i have 135bar injectors, and a n/a fuel pump on my n/a long block. and it doesnt care at all. still makes very good power..
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use all specs like a TD engine.
timing near to 1mm, injectors at minimum 155bar.
search for some threads regarding vnt control,its well discussed here.
1Y is almost the same as aaz,so no worry for compression and such...
boas amigo
ja falamos
como esta a tua maquina ?
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also, your mechanic is telling you the mods needed for gas engines, these are nothing like that ;)
not my mecanic
just around corners mecanic LOL
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did you calibrate the injectors ?
do you think its worth calibrate injectors for use with na pump ?
130, or 135 bar injectors will both work just fine with an n/a or TD pump.. you just have to run a LITTLE more conservative timing on n/a injectors..
155bar injectors do atomize the fuel better, but either work just fine. ive never noticed a power difference with the different injectors ive run..
i have 135bar injectors, and a n/a fuel pump on my n/a long block. and it doesnt care at all. still makes very good power..
from that you dont consider spend some money to calibrate them ?
n/a oem injectors ive 120 ? 130?
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why would i calibrate injectors that were just built around 10k miles ago? the pump and injectors were already serviced on this car..
im not gonna re-calibrate if i were to want more break pressure.. i have a set of 155bar TD injectors, that were rebuilt around 15k miles ago..
why do you think you need to modify your injectors? stock injectors will work fine. may even make a little bit more power, because the injection pump doesnt have to build soo much pressure to open them..
i actually prefer to use the injectors that the pump is timed to. every time you change the brake pressure, you have to change the timing..
more break pressure = later timing, and you fix that by advancing it..
do what you want tho, if your MIND IS SET on paying someone to calibrate your injectors, then go for it. the only time i would suggest it, is if you are rebuilding your engine, or your injectors have a TON of miles on them, or are smokey at cold idle, or it has starting issues, or something like that.. if they are noisy, or a cylinder is missing, then its not a bad idea.
its generally not a good idea to have perfectly good injectors re-built. pop tested isnt a bad idea, plus you can check the spray pattern while your at it..
where are you getting 120bar and 130bar OEM injectors?!?!?!
only kind ive seen OEM are 130bar, and 135bar injectors in n/a engines.
155bar in TD engine
180bar in a 1.5D
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thanks friend
only kind ive seen OEM are 130bar, and 135bar injectors in n/a engines.
this is what im trying to ask ..
sorry my rusty ingles ..
i im not set my mind to calibrate , in fact im asking becouse if its not very important i skip this step
the stuf to plug in cost god bucks in this portuguese crysis lol
so for now im tring to skip the minor things .
another question comes to mind , since the stuf is in my hands
its whorth make pot and polish in admission and exaust manifolds ?
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thanks friend
only kind ive seen OEM are 130bar, and 135bar injectors in n/a engines.
this is what im trying to ask ..
sorry my rusty ingles ..
i im not set my mind to calibrate , in fact im asking becouse if its not very important i skip this step
the stuf to plug in cost god bucks in this portuguese crysis lol
so for now im tring to skip the minor things .
another question comes to mind , since the stuf is in my hands
its whorth make pot and polish in admission and exaust manifolds ?
how much power you looking to build? there wont be much, if any difference on an n/a engine..
you might notice it if you are going turbo charged, and your building up over 100hp.
if you feel like gasket matching the intake and exhaust ports, it wont hurt.. but with the stock TD, and n/a intakes, they both flow soo horribly, that porting doesnt even do much good.
i got more power when i changed over to a gasser CIS manifold from the TD manifold, rather than when i ported my head. if you can fit a gasser intake manifold, they make a good boost in low end power..
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my engine is a 1y with that huge admission manifold that is good for big turbos , not litle like vnt15
i dont know the gasser one ..
but what ive to trying to reach 100 , 110 hp is
vnt 15 , afn 110 exaust and admission manifolds
intercooler with original tubbing from afn too
and ive the exaust line 55mm from gttdi 110 too
so no n.a manifolds
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sorry dude, its just a bit hard for me to follow your thread.. makes my head hurt to just read it. its too jumbled.
the bottom line tho, use the 1Y intake manifold, and the TD exhaust manifold/turbo..
you gotta get oil feed lines, and return lines made up, or bought tho. along with everything else for it.
you will get 100hp out of the n/a pump on the 1Y without much problem.
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thanks
here people plug oil suply for turbo ?
what system do you ive for control vanes ?
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where are you getting 120bar and 130bar OEM injectors?!?!?!
only kind ive seen OEM are 130bar, and 135bar injectors in n/a engines.
155bar in TD engine
180bar in a 1.5D
I think that 120 bar is the wear limit.
ROR2.0 can you please find the source for the 180 bar vw 1.5D injectors?
The last time I checked the whole of the internet, the only location for those values was here on this forum :o. It is clearly a very essential value for yellow dot users.
Does anyone have any Rabbit brochures for promoting the benefits of purchasing the car for that year?
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use all specs like a TD engine.
timing near to 1mm, injectors at minimum 155bar.
search for some threads regarding vnt control,its well discussed here.
1Y is almost the same as aaz,so no worry for compression and such...
boas amigo
ja falamos
como esta a tua maquina ?
like this.
still going like day 1 and i am building a 11mm pump for it at the moment.
(http://i.imgur.com/w6fCs.jpg)
(http://a.imagehost.org/0216/DSC02618.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQvU6AQRXE
hope this get you inspired to get your hands dirty and build that engine!
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use all specs like a TD engine.
timing near to 1mm, injectors at minimum 155bar.
search for some threads regarding vnt control,its well discussed here.
1Y is almost the same as aaz,so no worry for compression and such...
boas amigo
ja falamos
como esta a tua maquina ?
like this.
still going like day 1 and i am building a 11mm pump for it at the moment.
(http://i.imgur.com/w6fCs.jpg)
(http://a.imagehost.org/0216/DSC02618.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQvU6AQRXE
hope this get you inspired to get your hands dirty and build that engine!
wow.. your car is the sex... 8)
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thanks! 8)
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where are you getting 120bar and 130bar OEM injectors?!?!?!
only kind ive seen OEM are 130bar, and 135bar injectors in n/a engines.
155bar in TD engine
180bar in a 1.5D
I think that 120 bar is the wear limit.
ROR2.0 can you please find the source for the 180 bar vw 1.5D injectors?
The last time I checked the whole of the internet, the only location for those values was here on this forum :o. It is clearly a very essential value for yellow dot users.
Does anyone have any Rabbit brochures for promoting the benefits of purchasing the car for that year?
i agree with out a reliable source, information like that shouldn't be posted, like u i have never seen any other source for that number other than here.
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why the he!! else would the 1.5 have a 1.15mm timing spec??
it has a super soft, very early advance also..
i swear that ive seen a set ov 180bar injector bodies before even.. that was years ago tho. didnt know how significant they were.. they may have been some other break pressure tho.. it was long ago, and i cant say for sure..
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i don't know about the timing, that is where i have my yellow dot pump set at on my 81 rabbit with 135 bar injectors, and it runs properly, doesn't sound too advanced or anything at all(unless i pull the cold start). if u are not 100% certain about something u should mention that when u are posting info about it.
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well, if you are un-sure about info, and dont post about it, then you will never know if you are right or wrong.. make sense broseph?
i figured someone would confirm/deny the myth of 180bar squirters..
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Nozzle opening pressure - new/used bar 125±5/112±5
Leak rate (dribble) bar/seks 110/10
by AUTODATA for my Fiat 2500 NA.
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hey carrizog60
how do you control vanes ?
changing vacuum can by a waste gate ?
here you get oil supler to turbo , in oil sandwich ?
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why the he!! else would the 1.5 have a 1.15mm timing spec??
it has a super soft, very early advance also..
i swear that ive seen a set ov 180bar injector bodies before even.. that was years ago tho. didnt know how significant they were.. they may have been some other break pressure tho.. it was long ago, and i cant say for sure..
I'm partly in agreement with you, it would make sense, all other things being equal.
Why did VAG not go for an even softer spring and do away with the higher internal pump pressures if all they wanted was faster advance?
Greater atomisation does not improve efficiency IMO in a swirl chamber engine.
Most DN0 nozzles are run at 130bar ish for n/a's and 150ish for TD's There are exceptions, and I'll dig them out that go down to 110bar and about 3 engines from other makers that use 175 to 190 bar. Not sure if they are swirl or not, but at 200bar we get into the DI world....
What if the cam plate was a different profile, could that account for the anomaly?
We need either brochures from that period, or OEM owners 8)
Was it even merely an attempt at emissions control, or an attempt to deal with fuel change, or performance related?
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Greater atomisation does not improve efficiency IMO in a swirl chamber engine.
Most DN0 nozzles are run at 130bar ish for n/a's and 150ish for TD's There are exceptions, and I'll dig them out that go down to 110bar and about 3 engines from other makers that use 175 to 190 bar. Not sure if they are swirl or not, but at 200bar we get into the DI world....
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Can you explain why you think that? My thinking is that greater atomization is always a good thing, so smaller droplet + swirl would combust more than bigger droplets + swirl.
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i do agree the advanced timing would make sense with the higher breaking pressure, but my car drives very smoothly and quietly at 1.15, if it were the regular pump that far advanced even with td injectors, i would think it would sound like a tin of marbles tumbling down the stairs. a different cam profile is something i had though as well, i could measure total life on my car i suppose.
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Greater atomisation does not improve efficiency IMO in a swirl chamber engine.
Most DN0 nozzles are run at 130bar ish for n/a's and 150ish for TD's There are exceptions, and I'll dig them out that go down to 110bar and about 3 engines from other makers that use 175 to 190 bar. Not sure if they are swirl or not, but at 200bar we get into the DI world....
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Can you explain why you think that? My thinking is that greater atomization is always a good thing, so smaller droplet + swirl would combust more than bigger droplets + swirl.
i think the idea is that a larger droplet will burn more slowly, so it would be more likely to burn in the combustion chamber, rather than in the precombustion chamber where a lot of heat energy is wasted, which is the real down fall of the idi engine.
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i do agree the advanced timing would make sense with the higher breaking pressure, but my car drives very smoothly and quietly at 1.15, if it were the regular pump that far advanced even with td injectors, i would think it would sound like a tin of marbles tumbling down the stairs. a different cam profile is something i had though as well, i could measure total life on my car i suppose.
It took a few seconds to work that one out... I'm glad you actually mean total lift ;D
Next time you are changing the pump timing, then maybe do as I did and record every flywheel tooth from zero lift to max and over the other side. On the basic TD pump @ the operating region, it is about 5 thou/0.125mm per flywheel tooth, or 2.73 deg crank...
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ok i will follow that
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Greater atomisation does not improve efficiency IMO in a swirl chamber engine.
Most DN0 nozzles are run at 130bar ish for n/a's and 150ish for TD's There are exceptions, and I'll dig them out that go down to 110bar and about 3 engines from other makers that use 175 to 190 bar. Not sure if they are swirl or not, but at 200bar we get into the DI world....
........................................
Can you explain why you think that? My thinking is that greater atomization is always a good thing, so smaller droplet + swirl would combust more than bigger droplets + swirl.
The reasoning goes, that in a swirl chamber, once the initial burn has started, the droplets are sheared by the swirl and vapourised by the heat. This will, naturally, work 'better' with finer particles.
However, the creator/developer of this particular style of swirl chamber, found that if fuel is too fine it does not penetrate the compressed air as effectively.
Research showed that tangential [cord]firing of the fuel in direction of the compressed air flow, is more efficient than aiming radially or even into the 'jetstream' Harry Ricardo, found that 8:1 swirl rotation compared with crank was also an optimum. [Key word search him, if you are not already aware of his work]
I'd personally include some of Trevor's thoughts too.
This IIRC is a Ricardo mkV head essentially, it's research dating back fom the 1920's to the 1950's
How thick is compressed air?
My research if I was doing it would be to use tungsten[ or other high melting point metal type chamber incased in firebrick.
Aluminium in water is not the correct direction IMO
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2X on the larger droplet slower burn theory. Think small drops swirling and combustion speed. Bang all at once. Now large drops that have to burn up from the outside in. Takes energy and time. Granted we are talking microseconds here but that is why some bang and others not.
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You have to ask yourself:
Did the Early mk1 Rabbits suffer from poor mileage due to their initial settings of 130bar?
Legend tells me otherwise... ;D
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they were lighter too,that would also affect mileage
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they were lighter too,that would also affect mileage
Definitely, but by how much on a reasonable run? When people dropped 1.6 n/a 's into Rabbits what happened to the economy? The lower pressures certainly don't appear adverse.
My Quantum TD is driving at it's most economic at the moment with somewhere around 135 bar, but I did improve the compression ratio so that may have had a bigger influence; but timing, or more specifically tuning effects the whole lot. I'm still experimenting.
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my passat(the one on the pic)has better economy now than in stock hp .
for every kind of driving style besides wot runs of course.
i have 155 bar,as stock but most people here raise opening pressure when tuning pumps for more power.
is it trend only?