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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: carrizog60 on September 23, 2011, 05:13:13 am
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hi i am going to buil my own pump and will add a 11mm pump head out of a land rover tdi.
will swap all the head parts,aaz delivery valves and aaz camplate.
questions are:
-wont we need to adjust the shim that goes on top of the plunger?or using stock camplate the setting doesent change(as i thing all plungers have the same height?)
-the 11mm delivery valves from the tdi head will need to be swapped by the aaz ones?what happens if not replaced?
assuming that they are larger wont that give a lope idle?or is just the lines that are swapped on big diesel to have lope?
-should i use the aaz pressure control valve,the land rover one or a 1.6 one(i have one running 1.6 pump right now and at the end it must also run)
what else can be done to achieve more advance than changing shims,springs,+ clearance on the piston cap?
grind the pump wall to allow + travel?
does it make difference schimming the main spring on governor solid or just half its spring size?
any more tips?
thanks
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Good questions. I think Hey and 410 could probably help with the shim questions, if they still check the board.
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what else can be done to achieve more advance than changing shims,springs,+ clearance on the piston cap?
grind the pump wall to allow + travel?
Why do you need so much advance,if you do more advance than good....
I'am also interesting.
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i dont know if doing that mods is enough to have good advance in high rpm.
so the question...
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u can get a spacer for the advance piston cover, cummins boys use them
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hi i am going to buil my own pump and will add a 11mm pump head out of a land rover tdi.
will swap all the head parts,aaz delivery valves and aaz camplate.
questions are:
-wont we need to adjust the shim that goes on top of the plunger?or using stock camplate the setting doesent change(as i thing all plungers have the same height?)
Your K setting should stay close to what it was before. It's important to make sure the plunger doesn't come close to the plug on the head at the top of its travel. The plug on the head is fairly easy to remove with a pair of channel locks. It's not the right tool but it works.
-the 11mm delivery valves from the tdi head will need to be swapped by the aaz ones?what happens if not replaced?
I normally use the delivery valves to match the injectors you're using. Delivery valves are quite different in design for direct injection compared to indirect injection. Also the injector lines will fit better.
-assuming that they are larger wont that give a lope idle?or is just the lines that are swapped on big diesel to have lope?
I've noticed bigger injectors seem to have the greatest effect for a lopey idle. Going to an 11mm head might also give you that lopey idle. The delivery valves and lines have little effect on this.
-should i use the aaz pressure control valve,the land rover one or a 1.6 one(i have one running 1.6 pump right now and at the end it must also run)
I use the pressure control valve that matches the head and rotor assembly you're using. Although I have been able to adjust the pressure control valves from mismatched pumps to work well. I would start with the land rover pressure control valve and see how it feels. I've used both the aaz valve and 1.6 valve with an 11mm head with no troubles.
-what else can be done to achieve more advance than changing shims,springs,+ clearance on the piston cap?
The piston cap can be spaced out with a spacer and then shimming the spring the same the same thickness as the spacer. You can make your own gaskets for the spacer since there is hardly any pressure on this side of the piston. Or since you have an aaz pump, you can transfer the advance assembly to the 1.6 pump. The aaz advance system has all the advance you will ever need.
-grind the pump wall to allow + travel?
I haven't found this to be nessacary
-does it make difference schimming the main spring on governor solid or just half its spring size?
It makes a big difference just shimming half the main governor spring. The plunger will probably float on the camplate before the governor starts backing the fuel off. I prefer to leave the governor springs alone. I like having a governor.
-any more tips?
There is a bleed port on the governor shaft that gets covered when governor lever is in a high load position. Setting this bleed hole properly advances the timing under high load conditions really improves power and reduces smoke.
Good luck.
thanks
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thanks for the input!
plans are to use the 1.9 pump,so acording to what 410 said,advance will be good.
might use the land rover timing piston cover as it is way bigger than aaz one,will take a pic later.
i prefer the 1.6 pump spring assembly(single spring),but the 1.6 pump is easy to sell...
There is a bleed port on the governor shaft that gets covered when governor lever is in a high load position. Setting this bleed hole properly advances the timing under high load conditions really improves power and reduces smoke.
Good luck.
how can this be adjusted?what are the position to look for?
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There is a bleed port on the governor shaft that gets covered when governor lever is in a high load position. Setting this bleed hole properly advances the timing under high load conditions really improves power and reduces smoke.
Good luck.
how can this be adjusted?what are the position to look for?
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At the front of the pump just above the output shaft there's a lock nut 14mm in size. This locknut locks the governor weight shaft in place. Turning the shaft in advances the timing with less load and turning it out takes more load to advance timing. The best way to check this is with a gauge set up to read internal pump pressure. When loading the engine up at a fairly low rpm and producing some boost, you'll see a spike in pressure. Sometimes as much as 40-50 psi. This is the last adjustment I make since most other adjustments affect this one for example; the lda and fuel screw.
The lda is the other hidden gem to these pumps. Smoke control especially with an 11mm head becomes pretty important and the lda can help a lot with this. Once the lda is setup properly the car will have a very noticeable powerband with hardly any smoke.
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i have a 9mm gtd pump right now,with very agressive cut on lda,and full fueling on the screw,and the passat in normal driving doesent smoke.with 11mm will see :P
i hate smoke,but sometimes we cant avoid it on high hp goals...
410(and others of course) i dont have a form of measuring internal pressure,so when changing all the bits to the pump should i stay with that shaft untouched or should i give it a twist or two just to be safe?in or out?
hereīs a pic of the advance piston cover,2 land rovers pumps,but the roght has lda cover like aaz and left a bigger cover.
not seen on pics but the shaft is also diferent on the left pump,same diameter but has something attached to it...
(http://i.imgur.com/MeD9p.jpg)
thanks again,this is why i love this forum...! ;)
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how in the hell do you remove the internal pressure regulator?
mine is very tight and i cant get it to move with the tools i have...
do you fabricated yours?pics of it?
what about that cover on the timing advance?did you ever seen it?
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Go to FAQ samething about tools.
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cant find it...
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a real soft spring there to replace the one the pump would have come with also increases the advance curve.
my pump had the softest spring bosch made the pumps with and a shim. I removed the shim and kept the same spring. (its green)
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that green spring is where its at!
solved my advance issued with my cummins pump(along with machining the cover for more total advance piston travel)
-Owen
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For the pressure regulator, I took a 12mm six point socket and gave it a squeeze in the vise. It worked perfect and I still use it to this day. If you need a picture to see what it looks like just let me know. I can grab it tomorrow from work.
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a pic is worth thousand words ;)
i still have to see what spring i have on my pumps,i have the land rover,a 1.6 and 1.9 eco pump.
will source for green or red.
and what about that cover on the pic?
from the outside dimensions i guess i wont need to machine the cover or schim it?
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Is this pump for an idi engine or a di engine? I quickly looked through your posts but didn't see. I would use the aaz advance setup for idi and the rover setup for a tdi. Of course this is just my opinion! I really have no formal training when it comes to these pumps. I'll grab that socket today and send some pics.
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its for a 1.9 td with gt2052 turbo.should be fun ;D
i plan on using the aaz advance parts and the land rover cover for extra travel.
ok,snaped some pics and new questions.
(http://i.imgur.com/2OV7N.jpg)
can see that the 11mm plunger has some extra holes in diferents shapes than the gtd one.any special alignment is needed or just align with the pin on the camplate?
(http://i.imgur.com/3eEYl.jpg)
the land rover pump missed the small springs on the pump head,is best to use the aaz or 1.6?
(http://i.imgur.com/fesfg.jpg)
here you can see the difference of the land rover and aaz cover being the land rover more than twice as deep.
on the right is the springs.
from left to right is land rover,aaz,1.6gtd.
the land rover is taller than the vw ones.
aaz is silver and gtd is bronze.
if i use vw ones they will float inside the pump...what now?shims to compensate?
and the shim on top of plunger,i will use the one from aaz,as this is the camplate that i will be using,as i thinking right?
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The aaz advance system will be perfect for your application. I would also use the aaz advance cover as well. I would use the rover springs with the rover 11mm head but you can also use the aaz springs but they might need to be shimmed to work properly. There is instructions in the faq section on building an mtdi pump that explains this. Here is my custom socket for removing the pressure control valve.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0252.jpg)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0251.jpg)
Also the plunger from the 11mm head lines up the same way as other plungers although it is possible to install the plunger 180 out. If there's a keyway on the output shaft it should be in line with the notch for the plunger.
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410, its for a idi,not tdi.
the springs i am talking about is the small ones that also goes on the head,dont know what they are for,but i dont have the land rover ones because it didnt have them.
i have the aaz and gtd so have to use them.are they the same?
what abou the advance cover?all say that will space the cover to get extra tavel,why do you say not to use the deeper land rover one?
could try to extend the spring to take the extra space but dont know if the strenght would be the same.
will try the 12mm socket trick,hope it works.thanks!
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410, its for a idi,not tdi.
the springs i am talking about is the small ones that also goes on the head,dont know what they are for,but i dont have the land rover ones because it didnt have them.
i have the aaz and gtd so have to use them.are they the same?
what abou the advance cover?all say that will space the cover to get extra tavel,why do you say not to use the deeper land rover one?
could try to extend the spring to take the extra space but dont know if the strenght would be the same.
will try the 12mm socket trick,hope it works.thanks!
I did realize that your pump is for an idi but there is really good info on building "franken" pumps from username hey in the mtdi faq thread that applies to your build as well. I did misunderstand you for the springs though. Those small springs from your other pumps should work fine.
As for the advance covers, the aaz advance setup in stock form gives you 18-20 degrees advance which is probably more than you'll need already. You can use the rover advance cover and shim the spring to make up the extra distance but there is no real gain that will be useable.
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ok,thanks.
will use it anyway for the "cool" factor lol
today did the trick on the socket to remove the internal pressure regulator but no luck...itīs so thinght that the socket slips...
it unscrews the regular way right?
another question:
is any benefit to shave a bit on the lda lever or in stock form it allows full fuelling position on the levers?
i already shaved my lda pin to allow more travel but dont know if its enough for the full travel.
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the distributer must move right?to uncover/cover the hole in the plunger?
the one i have is stuck and is not aligned properly(to the hole on plunger so the levers attach to it) so i cant install it like this.
its safe to use some force and wd40 to twist it?it must move freely right?
and the pressure regulator doesent want to come off...
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it unscrews the regular way right?
Yes, and is safe to use some force and wd40.
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i was refering to the distributer that goes on the plunger?
the pressure regulator already broke me 2 sockets and dont want to come off...
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ok,got it unstuck,its free now.
and a quick pic of my governor
(http://i.imgur.com/7ZVG7.jpg)
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that's too tight, I use just a shim, but kudos for fighting the damn spring all the way :D
hit the regulator with a hammer(don't break it though), or heat it, mine was stuck as well
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it was a pain to put it all back together ;D
i am affraind of hitting it because i have concerns of changing the load on the spring inside...
heating would damage the seals...
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they are included on the Bosch rebuild kit ;)
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i was refering to the distributer that goes on the plunger?
the pressure regulator already broke me 2 sockets and dont want to come off...
Use a 6 point 10 mm socket. Leave 2 opposing flats alone (they fit the 2 flats on the regulator bolt) and use a Dremel with a small diameter grinder (chain saw sharpener bit works well) and grind the other four flats "round" to fit the regulator bolt. Do a little at a time while test fitting it on the bolt. Mine fits perfect and works great.!
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i was refering to the distributer that goes on the plunger?
the pressure regulator already broke me 2 sockets and dont want to come off...
Use a 6 point 10 mm socket. Leave 2 opposing flats alone (they fit the 2 flats on the regulator bolt) and use a Dremel with a small diameter grinder (chain saw sharpener bit works well) and grind the other four flats "round" to fit the regulator bolt. Do a little at a time while test fitting it on the bolt. Mine fits perfect and works great.!
I ad 0.8 mm steel plate around to harden with mig.
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when used the 12mm 6 spoint socket it fitted tight,but the damn thing is tight...
i am trying to get way without a seal kit... ::)
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when used the 12mm 6 spoint socket it fitted tight,but the damn thing is tight...
Didn't you say the socket you made slipped? That means the tool is not good enuf.
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ok,got it unstuck,its free now.
and a quick pic of my governor
(http://i.imgur.com/7ZVG7.jpg)
thats WAY TOO MUCH governor mod.. i used one stainless nut half as thick as what you have on there. it doesnt look right either, like something is missing, or there is too much of something.
i still have some travel left in my governor main spring.
if you tried to go full throttle with that governor, the clip on the end of the governor would fly of, and the idle spring, and spring spacer, along with washer, would all fall down in the pump, and you would lose your throttle..
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man, the kit costs around 13 from any bosch dealer, do you want me to send you one? ;)
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ok,got it unstuck,its free now.
and a quick pic of my governor
(http://i.imgur.com/7ZVG7.jpg)
thats WAY TOO MUCH governor mod.. i used one stainless nut half as thick as what you have on there. it doesnt look right either, like something is missing, or there is too much of something.
i still have some travel left in my governor main spring.
if you tried to go full throttle with that governor, the clip on the end of the governor would fly of, and the idle spring, and spring spacer, along with washer, would all fall down in the pump, and you would lose your throttle..
There's parts of 2 governors in there I think... Totally agree though, that is WAY too much. The main spring doesn't need to be shimmed much for a substantial difference - I used a hardened roller from a broken bicycle chain for mine, not more than 1/8" thick. Raised the governor by about 1200 RPM which was just fine by me.