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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TDsamurai on August 22, 2011, 07:49:11 pm
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Ok so i had my 1.6TD rebuilt at a local shop that i have done business with before and heard good things about. I had this done 17, 000km ago.
I immediately had some issues around crankcase ventilation and oil consumption. I understand that with chromoly piston rings can take quite some time for the rings to seat and there will be some oil consumption during the break in period.
So my question is how much oil was your engine consuming after a full rebuild? not just a re ring, my engine was bored .20 over with new pistons and the whole deal.
At about 2000km i still had oil consumption issues so i decided to do some investigating. I popped of the crankcase breather from the intake and ran it to a temporary catch can. After 50km of driving my engine pumped out 250ml of oil. I mentioned this to the engine builder and they told me it could do this for up to 6000km during break in. In response they told me chromoly rings are a pain to seat so drive it like i stole it. Personally i think that much oil is excessive. What do you think?
Now heres the big problem. My engine after 17,000km would only run on 3 cylinders. So i yanked it out and brought it back to the shop.
Cylinders were streaked, rings frozen to pistons and some rings broken. They shop has determined that the combustion temperatures were too hot. Now being that i have an EGT gauge and i carefully monitor this i find that hard to believe. Now yes my EGT is not my combustion temperature however i would expect it to be directly proportional to the combustion temp as the heat generally does come out the exhaust.
So far it has not been decided who will be paying for the damage or how much it will cost.
My theory is either some machining error or ring assembly error causing my initial excessive blowby which as a result was adding fuel (crankcase vapour) into the intake which could easily contribute to excessive combustion temperatures. As you may know this is very difficult to prove on both my part and the builders part.
As for details of my engine. It was fully rebuilt, top and bottom end. The injection pump rebuilt, and new injectors. Running 25psi of boost with ARP studs and MLS gasket. 2.5" straight exhaust. And a small top mount intercooler. I thought i had covered all the bases, but after i get my engine back i will also be running water meth injection and an after market oil cooler.
For break in procedure i tried to work the engine up steep hills and drive it hard however being careful not to over rev or "lug" it. I have heard break in is very critical, however i have also heard it is quite difficult to screw up a break in as long as the engine is working not idleing and what not.
So anyway im sure you can imagine my frustration, let me know what you think. Obviously i am not thrilled on paying for new pistons, the machining, and all the labour. Im not one to point fingers but it seems that is what the engine shop is doing to me.
When i mentioned the oil in the intake being the cause of temperatures, their response is that the rings weren't seated so there will be blow by. But a cup of oil in 50km seems a bit much.
I look forward to your input thanks for the help in advance guys.
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I recently rebuilt my 1.9TD. Since the rebuild I have put, so far, 4200km roughly and have only added about 1 liter of oil since then. From that 1 liter, probabley 3/4s was actually lost from leaks and a very marginall amount burned.
If the shop told you to drive it like you stole it I personally wouldnt trust them. From what Ive been told, and just a personall common sence view on the matter, you are supposed to do the exact opposite. I drove mine very, very mildly for the first 2-300km or so maybe up to 2k rpms max, then began to drive it as I would normall before I built the engine, staying out of the boost as much as possible of course. I waited till about 1500 to 2000km till I started to really get into the boost (Its also compound turbo'd, so you can imagine how hard that was)
There is alot of things they could have done to mess this up, Installe dthe rings with the gaps all lined up, hit the pistons into the cylinders with a hammer or some type of mallet and cracked or broke the rings.
I did the rebuild on my car myslef, just had the machine shop clean everything, deck the block and head, hot tank and polish the crank and re-cross hatch the cylinders so if anything goes wrong Im the only one to blame. If I was in your shoes I would personally point the finger at the shop for the faulty workmanship by the sounds of it.
I would also check out all the bearings if I was you just to be sure, who knows what could be happening if your pistons look like they do. Try and get some pics or the carnage if possible. Check your oil filter and see if it has any metal shavings in it, if there is lots check your oil pump and strainer to maybe?
Not sure if this really helps but it was my personal experience and also personal views from when I rebuilt my engine, It was also the first engine I every built :)
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I think you did ok. I would say the shop is crazy for putting in chromoly rings. Those take forever in a gas engine and they take a different hone, so that maybe the problem.
As for break in I think differently then the zorn. I didn't drive mine like I stole it, but I did cycle the engine slowly through the RPM band. Keeping it under redline, but taking my time getting it there and making it work the whole time. I did baby it for the first 100 miles at low RPM, then went to keeping it under redline. I did this as my first gasser used oil when I broke it in keeping it low RPM until a few thousand miles. Everytime I got on it and really into the higher RPM range it would use oil, but if I kept it under 3,000RPM it wouldn't use a drop. An old guy told me to break it in differently*like I have above* and I wouldn't have had that problem.
My current build uses maybe 2oz in 5,000 miles. It used to leak/burn about 16oz in 3,000 miles, but now that all the leaks are fixed I really don't use it. I think the first 300 miles I used 8oz, but there were leaks in there too. After that it all slowed down to nill.
I would find out what brand of ring and piston they used. If it was the Prothe pistons they are usually good but his rings suck and do what you have said happened to you. I would get the Goetze rings for you pistons if they are still in spec for your engine. Make sure you have the .001" bore spec and you should be good.
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The bearings appear to be OK, and there was no metal in the oil filter. Why would you say they are crazy for using chrome rings? isnt that factory for these engines? im not so sure cast rings will support my 25psi of boost. I guess i will be more gentle with the engine when i get it this time. I new i had too much blow by from the start. Ive spent 10 000 at this machine shop in the last 3 years and i have sent lots of business there, i hope they take care of me.
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my .02 - I use a provent filter now on mine. I don't have a connection to the lower part of the block. I've tried a couple times to connect a vent line to the lower block plate (just below and to the right of the inj. pump. Both times I tried it I get large amount of oil coming out of there. Like you said about 250 mls or more with just a 15 in drive. I don't know if this is only my engine or not. other people do it and have no problem, with mine I can't. I have a large 1" connection to the valve cover vent going to my provent filter back into the engine. I have maybe 15000 miles on my engine and uses maybe 1 liter between oil changes. (my engine is a 92 1.6td usually running a max of about 20 psi.)
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This test was before i upgraded my oil seperator to the later style that drains to the block, after the upgrade it did cut back a bit, still i was going through about 3 litres between oil changes and i was doing oil changes after 3000km. After the rebuild i think i did an oil change after 500km and then another in 1000km and another 1000km and then every 3000km.
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have you been running it up thru the entire RPM range?
you really need to beat on these diesels a bit to seat the rings good.. well, not really beat on them, but definitely rev them a bit. keep them under a load (driving the car)
my rings on the 1.5TD i built took FOREVER to seat. had blow by for about 10k miles with normal rings..
moly rings have a really hard face, and it takes even longer to seat them..
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Well they told me to beat on it so yea i was driving it pretty hard. And definately was using the revs. What kind of oil consumption did you have early on in the break in?
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I don't know what the factory used but all the rings I have were iron. If I were to do it again I would buy the Goetze and send them to total seal.
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Well they told me to beat on it so yea i was driving it pretty hard. And definately was using the revs. What kind of oil consumption did you have early on in the break in?
i used over a quart in the first 500 miles, then changed it, and used another quart in 3000 miles.. then it slowed down after that.
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I don't know what the factory used but all the rings I have were iron. If I were to do it again I would buy the Goetze and send them to total seal.
send them to total seal? to have them build rings for our engines? they dont already make something that fits?
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Ok i just heard from the machine shop the cylinder head is not useable, the block needs to be re bored and i need new pistons+rings. And they still think a cup of oil in 50km out the breather is normal... We will see what they want to charge me for.
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Ok i just heard from the machine shop the cylinder head is not useable, the block needs to be re bored and i need new pistons+rings. And they still think a cup of oil in 50km out the breather is normal... We will see what they want to charge me for.
sounds like the shop did some $#!tty work on your engine..
no, its not normal for a cup of oil to come out the breather in 50 km..
the amount of oil out the breather should be almost un-measurable..
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....K wait, so what happened to the head? I don't see why it would be unusable now unless it was unusable before, although it's been a long day so I might've missed something.
I'm using Goetze rings, and burned/leaked quite a bit of oil for the first 2000km or so, ever since then, the only oil I lose is from the known leaks I haven't addressed yet.
Also, I am of the same mind as theman53, I went fairly easy on my car for the first couple hundred Km or so, to make sure everything was doing ok, then I just did as much varied driving as possible, racked up a few thousand km of up and down in the RPM band, and every type of load I could put on it, from decel down a nice long hill, to a good high boost run back up it. You have to consider that your rings seal based partially on combustion chamber pressures, so you can't go too easy on it or it won't push the rings hard enough into the cylinder wall to seat them properly. I've got a friend with a 1000whp+ turbo 300zx, he built his motor and then broke it in on 20psi and hard dyno pulls. He hasn't had an issue since. The first few hours of runtime on a motor are key for getting the rings to seat nicely, as that's when your crosshatch is the roughest and will allow the rings and cylinder walls to match themselves nicely. Also, consider doing the rebuild yourself, if you have the space and tools to swap it into a Sami, you have the knowledge and most of the tools you'll need to rebuild it. It's fairly easy with a manual and some basic mechanical aptitude.
Coles: I second using Goetze rings, and I'm more of a believer in the "hard break-in" school.
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....K wait, so what happened to the head? I don't see why it would be unusable now unless it was unusable before, although it's been a long day so I might've missed something.
I'm using Goetze rings, and burned/leaked quite a bit of oil for the first 2000km or so, ever since then, the only oil I lose is from the known leaks I haven't addressed yet.
Also, I am of the same mind as theman53, I went fairly easy on my car for the first couple hundred Km or so, to make sure everything was doing ok, then I just did as much varied driving as possible, racked up a few thousand km of up and down in the RPM band, and every type of load I could put on it, from decel down a nice long hill, to a good high boost run back up it. You have to consider that your rings seal based partially on combustion chamber pressures, so you can't go too easy on it or it won't push the rings hard enough into the cylinder wall to seat them properly. I've got a friend with a 1000whp+ turbo 300zx, he built his motor and then broke it in on 20psi and hard dyno pulls. He hasn't had an issue since. The first few hours of runtime on a motor are key for getting the rings to seat nicely, as that's when your crosshatch is the roughest and will allow the rings and cylinder walls to match themselves nicely. Also, consider doing the rebuild yourself, if you have the space and tools to swap it into a Sami, you have the knowledge and most of the tools you'll need to rebuild it. It's fairly easy with a manual and some basic mechanical aptitude.
Coles: I second using Goetze rings, and I'm more of a believer in the "hard break-in" school.
i dont get the way of thinking by some people..
build an engine, break it in on oh, 3 psi boost, then once its broken in, crank it up to 30 psi.. i mean, come on.. WTF? seriously?
the engines i build, i break them in exactly as they are going to be driven..
i also believe in the "run it like ya stole it" break in method.
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For the 1st 1,000 miles I didn't drive it like I stole it, but it NEVER idled. If I was at a light or stop sign I would rev it in Nuetral up and down just so it wasn't sitting there. That first 1,000 also it was pretty much acclerating and declerating constantly. Maybe that is why I didn't use a quart of oil in the first oil change.
Something doesn't add up with the engine builder here. I would say that the head was junk before and they may never have bored it in the first place. That is pretty much a longshot, but I would ask to see or measure the bore yourself before they touch it again. If it is 76.48mm I think that is stock and they charged you for nothing. Or they bored it way to big and used your stuff, but something happend that isn't right for sure.
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They are claiming the engine failed based on excessive combustion temperatures. Which i believe is caused by the oil that was being puked out the breather being burned through the intake. Which a cup in 50km i think would have the capability to raise the heat of the burn. The block was definately bored as i saw the new pistons and i received the engine as just an assembled bottom end, the cross hatching looked great. The cylinder head was cleaned, and pressure tested, before installed it had the famous cracks between the valve seats that most 1.6TD heads have and everything checked out. Apparently when the head was removed at the machine shop the pre cups fell out of the head. The precups are a loose fit now. I definately have the tools space and know how to build the engine myself i am a mechanic/fabricator/machinist haha. However my issue is time, and i was hoping for warranty if they build the engine but so far it seems they wont help me out anyway. Ill see the quote hopefully tomorrow, ill be happy if they just cover the labour. I priced out a head from the local auto parts store. apparently its a new head fully assembled with cam and everything for $625 that sounds quite reasonable to me what do you think?
Which pistons and rings should i go with? Ill look into Goetze do they make pistons and rings?
This is a pretty huge inconvience. I think ill have them build it again and run water meth injection and an aftermarket oil cooler. And check for blow by again and if its excessive again ill run the breather into a catch can for break in and if it fails again then ill throw the engine through their front window and tell them to pay for it and do it right. Ive heard so many mixed opinions and methods of breaking in an engine i think it must me difficult to screw it up unless you let it idle or hold an rpm. My biggest pain is i can't 4x my truck until i get a good 5-10000km on this engine.
I appreciate the input, these guys are starting to make me feel like i know nothing.
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What reason did they give you as to why the head Isnt usable? Major warping from an overheat is the main reason you'd need a new one, other then that it should be quite easily rebuilt, If its actually needed.
For the 1st 1,000 miles I didn't drive it like I stole it, but it NEVER idled. If I was at a light or stop sign I would rev it in Nuetral up and down just so it wasn't sitting there. That first 1,000 also it was pretty much acclerating and declerating constantly. Maybe that is why I didn't use a quart of oil in the first oil change.
Something doesn't add up with the engine builder here. I would say that the head was junk before and they may never have bored it in the first place. That is pretty much a longshot, but I would ask to see or measure the bore yourself before they touch it again. If it is 76.48mm I think that is stock and they charged you for nothing. Or they bored it way to big and used your stuff, but something happend that isn't right for sure.
This also ^
Plus, the customer is always right ;) haha
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If the rest of your head is OK and just the precups are falling out, there are replacements 1.6L engines available from Italy that are just a bit oversize (your machine shop will have to flycut the recesses for the cups (...see my post from ~April 2011).
My new combustion chamber cups (frozen in freezer) were then installed into the head heated to 300F and peened 5 places around the perimeter away from the headgasket sealing area.
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TDsamuri ... where in canada are you?
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depending on what the core is worth on my head and how useable it is i might play with it at work. If i can get a complete new head for 625 and its here in 2 days its hard to justify waiting for precups from italy and all the machine work im pretty sure it would cost more. I need my truck back. I would however like to look into some head modifications though if i end up with a spare.
Im on vancouver island in BC
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i may have a head...have to pull it off of an engine and have a look at it...im close to kamloops....i also grew up on the island lol
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Kolbenschmidt pistons are known good. As far as I know there rings are good too. I would still send them to total seal. As far as I know that is how we have to do it. I don't believe they make rings for us, or if they do it is way too much $$$.
As much as I hate to admit I am running pistons from Prothe with the Goetze rings and don't have a problem yet.
If you are super worried about heat then get them swaintech coated. Lord Verminaard on here did that and has been able to run some rediculously sustained EGT temps on an NA block. He just did the cheapest coating they have.
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all the parts are ordered. Should see them next week. Thanks for the offer, but i new fully assembled head will be here tomorrow for $625 i dont think i can get a one rebuilt for that price after machine work and labour. I dont know what rings or pistons they are going with this time but they said they are trying another brand of rings. not sure if they are cast or chrome? can you get cast rings for these engines and will they handle alot of power? Ive heard mixed opinions. All the parts are ordered but i still havent even seen a quote. i do know that the head costs 625 and the pistons are 3-400 so right there thats 1000 and they say they are replacing all the bearings as well so that probably 100-200 i really want to know if they are gonna help out on the labour.
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i know on gassers we used cast rings...chrome ones ate out the bores... with cast ones you just light hone and replace rings....with chrome ones it seemed like you needed to over bore, new pistons and rings every time...then tune to the new displacement...cast was just about replace and go...had to replace them more but with the engine not getting a (small) displacement change...
just a thought
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I think healthy engine conditions make for a good break in. If i limited my boost to 3 psi;
firstly, i wouldn't be able to drive up the hill to my house
secondly, the EGTs would be in the 1,500 range up ANY incline around where I live...
i agree with ROR, drive it like you would normally. If you built it properly (meaning not too much fuel for insanely high egts) it will drive just great.
but do run conventional oil for at least 5,000 - 10,000km.
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My new head should be here tomorrow and it has a 1 year warrantee no matter what happens to it. Im getting anxious to see if they are going to cover anything. When i was breaking in my engine i was running stock fuel and boost for about 5000km and then bumped the fuel a bit and ran 25 psi.
What oil do you recommend for break in? i was using chevron delo 400 is that too thick for this thing ive heard some using 15 40 and some using 10 30
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Rotella T 10w-30 NON synthetic. Run it at least until the 5,000 mile mark. I would change it after the first 20 minutes of running then at 1,000 miles then at your 5,000 miles. You don't have to change it all at the 20 minute mark, but most all of the shop towels, metal shavings and grease are in that oil first start, so at least spin on a new Mann filter.
All our rings as far as I know that I have seen are cast iron. They hold up well. Mine has seen 28psi max and daily 21psi with no issues at all.
Get a reciept for all parts and keep all packaging if this happens again.
Don't run Grant, topline, or Prothe rings no matter what they are made of.
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I my not know what I'm talking about so take with a grain of salt, but with a turbo engine for break in I would not go less than 15w40 regular oil, not sythetic. This will get much better oil pressure all the time and keep engine temps down a wee bit. The piston oil squirters in the block need to be doing their job. My $.02 10w30 will not do as well as 15w40.
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I my not know what I'm talking about so take with a grain of salt, but with a turbo engine for break in I would not go less than 15w40 regular oil, not sythetic. This will get much better oil pressure all the time and keep engine temps down a wee bit. The piston oil squirters in the block need to be doing their job. My $.02 10w30 will not do as well as 15w40.
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your squirters open later with thin oil..
they open based on oil pressure.. and thin oil doesnt make pressure till higher in the RPM range..
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ok so 15w40, i ran 15w40 last time. The rings are cast and they are using hastings which apparently is well known and they have had great success. Im glad they will handle some boost i was a little concerned.
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I have hastings rings, they seem to have set well so far. Has the shop accepted any responsability yet?
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they said 500 for parts and 600 labour, plus i had to buy the head for 700. I asked if they were giving me a deal and he said yes. Thats with new pistons bearings seals and bored again.
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Today's rotella t protects better. You will have a longer break in with 15-40. The new engine will be as tight as an engine can be and will appriciate the thinner oil to penatrate all the passages better than the 15-40. For what it is worth the last I heard Catapillar made 10w-30 the spec for all new engines. Do what you want but I loose less oil than the rest of these guys and I used 10-30 for around 8,000 miles when I then switched to sythetic 5w-40.
On gasser stuff Hastings was my brand of choice before total seal was around.
My machinist didn't build my engine, but it was 20.00 per hole to bore. 80.00 to clean, magnaflux. I had 50.00 for my IM shaft repair where the seal cut into it. 10.00 total for rod sizing...That was one time through. If it were his fault he said he would honor his work, but not parts. I think you are getting hosed and I would at least check out another shop. Good luck to you no matter what you decide.
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i need my engine back im going to compare to my previous bill which i believe was 1600 for the bottom end assembly, which needed the connecting rods machined as they were ovaled, and the block decked and bored as well as line honed for the crank. so its going to cost me 400 less to have the engine assembled top to bottom with all the bottom end done less the line hone and connecting rod and deck machining. Plus i had to pay for the head which was 700. Even if im getting hosed i just want my engine back if it costs another 200 to have my engine ready for next weekend so be it. I dont think i will go back there though, and i will probably avoid sending business there, i often do builds where people have the engine rebuilt.
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wow that sucks. hosed sadly. were i a betting man id say the rings were broken on install. tgose rings are brittle.
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wow that sucks. hosed sadly. were i a betting man id say the rings were broken on install. tgose rings are brittle.
I would say so also, I have hastings rings like I said and have had no problems so far, Good luck with the new engine!