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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on August 19, 2011, 06:27:14 am
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Anyone get the alternator squeal after every engine start? I've tightened the belt and it still squeals but I don't want to tighten it anymore since I don't want to shorthen the life of the bearings. I've been taking current measurements and to my surprise, the squeal is not due to high amperage loading of the glow plugs but rather from the alternator surge (around 45 amps) charging the battery. I disconnected the glow plugs, started the engine and it still squealed while the ammeter indicated 45 amps! As the ammeter reading drops over approx 3 to 4 seconds, the squeal stops. I am trying to find a work around since it is annoying as hell!
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buy a new belt. your old one is glazed. pullies may be also..
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buy a new belt. your old one is glazed. pullies may be also..
Belt has less than 1500 miles on it although it did squeal for a long time before I adjusted it so it is probably glazed and should be replaced. What are sources of new pulleys?
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Sometimes a little emery cloth on the pulleys can help. You don't really want a rough surface though as it will wear the belts prematurely.
Also make sure you really do have the correct belt - VW belts are all metric so just buying one that 'looks' right doesn't necessarily mean it is actually the correct taper. Metric V-belts have a different taper than SAE V-belts. They're close enough to seem like they fit but they don't really work right and will slip, etc.
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I had the same problem with the same model/year car. It's not the belt or the pulleys. I replaced the belt multiple times as well as the idler and alternator pulleys. It's the design. Tightening the idler reduces the wrap angle on the alternator pulley, which make the belt slip more. The belt glazes, overheats, then snaps.
Here's how I fixed the squeal...
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=29090.0
My setup has 3,600 miles so far and NO squeal. I'm thinking of making a kit for those who don't have access to machine tools.
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do you have a/c?
that small belt is the problem if you are running a/c.. look at how thin it is..
im running non a/c, and my belt has a smaller bite (wrap angle) on the pulley, and slips. but thats because i have an SAE belt on a german car..
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I get a squeal sometimes. UT its not belt. It's bearing some way. Someone said might be timin belt pulley.
My damn a/c. Compressor won't stay tight for the life of me!
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I get a squeal sometimes. UT its not belt. It's bearing some way. Someone said might be timin belt pulley.
My damn a/c. Compressor won't stay tight for the life of me!
you really need to make sure its not the timing belt tensioner. when they start talking to you, they are saying
"HEY, CHANGE ME BEFORE I WRECK YOUR ENGINE!!"
when that tensioner seizes up, it starts melting the backing off the belt, then when it wears thru enough, the belt snaps, and your engine is trashed..
CHANGE IT!! or atleast make sure its not the culprit of the noise before it locks up and you get the clash of death..
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do you have a/c?
that small belt is the problem if you are running a/c.. look at how thin it is..
im running non a/c, and my belt has a smaller bite (wrap angle) on the pulley, and slips. but thats because i have an SAE belt on a german car..
Yes, car has A/C. I tried three different belts, including the Dayco part number that's on there now (best of the bunch). The Dayco, without the additional idler, needed adjustment within a couple weeks and lasted only a few months. The current setup uses the Dayco belt as well. I've not adjusted it. The belt is still tight and shows no sign of distress after 3600 miles, which is since mid-May. I'm fairly sure the problem is fixed.
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I can rarely get my alternator pulley to stop squeeling and I can't find a new pulley for any reasonable price so i take the pulley off about once ever 2 years and completely sand it down with 40 or 60 grit inside.
new belts also help. V-belts are just a poor design. I'm tempted to run a chain. - would also sound AWESOME
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to be honest you think the germans would have been smart enough to not use v belts and mechanical tensioners, they are the worst f**king thing to ever use in a vehicle. ive gone through 3 belts this month. the only true way to get rid of this problem would be to either swap to serp or drop in an aaz. it just happened to me again tonight coming home from the drive in, if i dont sit there for 5 min untill my tach starts working, the belt snaps, u can smell burning rubber. so amazingly aggravating that it makes me want to put a brick on the pedal and run it off a cliff. it helps if the pullies line up, usually have to find a old alternator to find shims because they stopped including them with new alts.
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I can rarely get my alternator pulley to stop squeeling and I can't find a new pulley for any reasonable price so i take the pulley off about once ever 2 years and completely sand it down with 40 or 60 grit inside.
new belts also help. V-belts are just a poor design. I'm tempted to run a chain. - would also sound AWESOME
way back when the 36hp beetle land speed record was set by a guy running a supercharger off a bicycle chain...
never failed and he was turning like 7krpm. lol
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to be honest you think the germans would have been smart enough to not use v belts and mechanical tensioners, they are the worst f**king thing to ever use in a vehicle. ive gone through 3 belts this month. the only true way to get rid of this problem would be to either swap to serp or drop in an aaz. it just happened to me again tonight coming home from the drive in, if i dont sit there for 5 min untill my tach starts working, the belt snaps, u can smell burning rubber. so amazingly aggravating that it makes me want to put a brick on the pedal and run it off a cliff. it helps if the pullies line up, usually have to find a old alternator to find shims because they stopped including them with new alts.
Cold start of my Ecodiesel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHVXbKD5IPk
...No squeal.
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to be honest you think the germans would have been smart enough to not use v belts and mechanical tensioners, they are the worst f**king thing to ever use in a vehicle. ive gone through 3 belts this month. the only true way to get rid of this problem would be to either swap to serp or drop in an aaz. it just happened to me again tonight coming home from the drive in, if i dont sit there for 5 min untill my tach starts working, the belt snaps, u can smell burning rubber. so amazingly aggravating that it makes me want to put a brick on the pedal and run it off a cliff. it helps if the pullies line up, usually have to find a old alternator to find shims because they stopped including them with new alts.
Or buy a Quantum. In about 18 years of driving them, I don't remember changing an alt belt. An alt or 2 yes! Maybe it's an A/c thing. Never ever seen an A/C equipped Q in the UK, although I do have a set from USA in the cupboard ;D
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to be honest you think the germans would have been smart enough to not use v belts and mechanical tensioners, they are the worst f**king thing to ever use in a vehicle. ive gone through 3 belts this month. the only true way to get rid of this problem would be to either swap to serp or drop in an aaz. it just happened to me again tonight coming home from the drive in, if i dont sit there for 5 min untill my tach starts working, the belt snaps, u can smell burning rubber. so amazingly aggravating that it makes me want to put a brick on the pedal and run it off a cliff. it helps if the pullies line up, usually have to find a old alternator to find shims because they stopped including them with new alts.
Cold start of my Ecodiesel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHVXbKD5IPk
...No squeal.
Nice! Is adding the roller tensioner the only change? Did you keep the stock tensioner?
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to be honest you think the germans would have been smart enough to not use v belts and mechanical tensioners, they are the worst f**king thing to ever use in a vehicle. ive gone through 3 belts this month. the only true way to get rid of this problem would be to either swap to serp or drop in an aaz. it just happened to me again tonight coming home from the drive in, if i dont sit there for 5 min untill my tach starts working, the belt snaps, u can smell burning rubber. so amazingly aggravating that it makes me want to put a brick on the pedal and run it off a cliff. it helps if the pullies line up, usually have to find a old alternator to find shims because they stopped including them with new alts.
Cold start of my Ecodiesel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHVXbKD5IPk
...No squeal.
Nice! Is adding the roller tensioner the only change? Did you keep the stock tensioner?
there is no stock tensioner? just the pivot point of the alternator..
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Yes, I use the stock tensioner with the additional idler.
to be honest you think the germans would have been smart enough to not use v belts and mechanical tensioners, they are the worst f**king thing to ever use in a vehicle. ive gone through 3 belts this month. the only true way to get rid of this problem would be to either swap to serp or drop in an aaz. it just happened to me again tonight coming home from the drive in, if i dont sit there for 5 min untill my tach starts working, the belt snaps, u can smell burning rubber. so amazingly aggravating that it makes me want to put a brick on the pedal and run it off a cliff. it helps if the pullies line up, usually have to find a old alternator to find shims because they stopped including them with new alts.
Cold start of my Ecodiesel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHVXbKD5IPk
...No squeal.
Nice! Is adding the roller tensioner the only change? Did you keep the stock tensioner?
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Just picked up a Goodyear Gatorback 13276 V belt for the alternator. 13276= 13/32 width (10 mm), 27.6" (701 mm) length. Made in Mexico! :( Hope it's a good belt. I am going to try scuffing the pulleys and tensioning it and see it it stops squealing. If not, I'll try to add an additional idler tensioner. Jack, what did you use for an idler? Is it spring loaded or fixed?
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Cold start of my Ecodiesel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHVXbKD5IPk
...No squeal.
Hey Larry, I noticed at the end of the video the chime sounding. My doesn't work. Where is the chime located? I want to use it as an alarm for warnings.
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Cold start of my Ecodiesel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHVXbKD5IPk
...No squeal.
Hey Larry, I noticed at the end of the video the chime sounding. My doesn't work. Where is the chime located? I want to use it as an alarm for warnings.
someone probably pulled the door chime relay.. most VWs are that way. its not a required piece to the car, just annoying..
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I was alerted to the fact that as the belt tension is adjusted more and more, the belt contact area to the alt pulley becomes less and less, making it more prone to squeal. With that in mind, I think the place to put the idler is where the OEM tensioner is located. Basically ditch the OEM tensioner and put an idler there to push the flat part of the belt inward (rather than outward), thus giving the belt more contact to the pulley as you tension it more.
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I was alerted to the fact that as the belt tension is adjusted more and more, the belt contact area to the alt pulley becomes less and less, making it more prone to squeal. With that in mind, I think the place to put the idler is where the OEM tensioner is located. Basically ditch the OEM tensioner and put an idler there to push the flat part of the belt inward (rather than outward), thus giving the belt more contact to the pulley as you tension it more.
Tried that; It doesn't work. The arrangement significantly back bends the belt so it goes through a large stress reversal each rev, leading to early failure. In my setup, the extra idler maintains an adequate wrap angle without excessive back bending. In practice, I tighten the OEM tensioner to slightly less than than full tension. Then I bring in the extra idler to re-establish the wrap angle and properly tension the belt. It's important to mostly tension the belt with the OEM unit. This way, the extra idler barely back bends the belt.
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The new Goodyear belt I put on lasted 3 weeks before it stretched to the point where there are no more adjustments with the tensioner. I put on a lawnmower belt, a Gates 6827 to be exact and so far so good, no squeal even with glow plugs, head lights, and blower on!. It remains to be seen how long it will last. This belt is wider (1/2" wide) and is meant to drive a higher HP load with a stronger grip. It has no teeth for cooling so may run hotter. We shall see how long it will last. If it works out well, I may change the rest of the belts to the 1/2" lawn mower belts..
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How is your alternator spinnin with the glow plugs on at the same time?
Or did I read that wrong?
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How is your alternator spinnin with the glow plugs on at the same time?
Or did I read that wrong?
I have a rocker switch to turn the glow plugs on or off anytime I want. The glow LED as well as a chime is wired in parallel with the glow plugs so I can see and hear when they are on so I do not forget that they are on.
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The new Goodyear belt I put on lasted 3 weeks before it stretched to the point where there are no more adjustments with the tensioner. I put on a lawnmower belt, a Gates 6827 to be exact and so far so good, no squeal even with glow plugs, head lights, and blower on!. It remains to be seen how long it will last. This belt is wider (1/2" wide) and is meant to drive a higher HP load with a stronger grip. It has no teeth for cooling so may run hotter. We shall see how long it will last. If it works out well, I may change the rest of the belts to the 1/2" lawn mower belts..
there is a difference in the angle of the V-groove on metric, and SAE pullies..
using a SAE belt on Metric pulleys will not result in a long lasting belt.
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I was alerted to the fact that as the belt tension is adjusted more and more, the belt contact area to the alt pulley becomes less and less, making it more prone to squeal. With that in mind, I think the place to put the idler is where the OEM tensioner is located. Basically ditch the OEM tensioner and put an idler there to push the flat part of the belt inward (rather than outward), thus giving the belt more contact to the pulley as you tension it more.
Tried that; It doesn't work. The arrangement significantly back bends the belt so it goes through a large stress reversal each rev, leading to early failure. In my setup, the extra idler maintains an adequate wrap angle without excessive back bending. In practice, I tighten the OEM tensioner to slightly less than than full tension. Then I bring in the extra idler to re-establish the wrap angle and properly tension the belt. It's important to mostly tension the belt with the OEM unit. This way, the extra idler barely back bends the belt.
FYI. I learned (from talking to engineers at belt manufacturers) that automotive V-belts are not designed to have a roller pressed against the flat part of the belt as you are doing, whereas the lawnmower belts are. If you have no problems, then great. If you do, you may want to consider going to a lawnmower belt.
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The new Goodyear belt I put on lasted 3 weeks before it stretched to the point where there are no more adjustments with the tensioner. I put on a lawnmower belt, a Gates 6827 to be exact and so far so good, no squeal even with glow plugs, head lights, and blower on!. It remains to be seen how long it will last. This belt is wider (1/2" wide) and is meant to drive a higher HP load with a stronger grip. It has no teeth for cooling so may run hotter. We shall see how long it will last. If it works out well, I may change the rest of the belts to the 1/2" lawn mower belts..
there is a difference in the angle of the V-groove on metric, and SAE pullies..
using a SAE belt on Metric pulleys will not result in a long lasting belt.
Accoring to the Goodyear engineer I talked to, their automotive V belt in the size for my 92 VW jetta is 37 degrees, metric or SAE. Do you have any info on what angle the Metric belt should be? All I know is the Lawnmower belt I am using is not squealing with the heaviest load I can place on the alternator, so it must be making better contact than all the previous belts I've used, one of which was a Continental metric belt and they all squealed and stretched till there is no more adjustment on the tensioner.
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You guys should try doing a voltage drop test
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22321.0
I don't ever recall having problems with my belts other than when I don't tighten them for months and then go through a deep puddle.
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My guess is you have no AC or the AC compressor was removed?
You guys should try doing a voltage drop test
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22321.0
I don't ever recall having problems with my belts other than when I don't tighten them for months and then go through a deep puddle.
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It's true, AC is the first thing to go in the scrap pile. However, I had belt problems then I did the voltage drop test and fixed the problems. If you saw how loose and crappy looking my belt was you would be amazed that it didn't squeal.
At any rate, a voltage drop test is easy to do and is good for your car.
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It's true, AC is the first thing to go in the scrap pile. However, I had belt problems then I did the voltage drop test and fixed the problems. If you saw how loose and crappy looking my belt was you would be amazed that it didn't squeal.
At any rate, a voltage drop test is easy to do and is good for your car.
I am not familiar with an AC less 1.6 diesel. I am guessing the alternator tensioner design on yours is different than mine. The problem with the tensioner design on a 1.6 diesel with AC is that there is less and less belt to pulley contact with more and more tensioner adjustment, exacerbating the problem. Changing the belt to one with more grip and less tendency to stretch (a lawnmower belt) fixed the squeal, which was due to the OEM spec belt not able to handle the load placed on it. I don't think I have bad wiring. I know what a voltage drop test is and will check my power wiring out for the sake of it
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Thinking more about your theory that voltage drop is causing my alternator belt to squeal. The only way I see that can be is if the voltage drop is between the battery terminal and the battery, which would place the glow plug load more so on the alternator than on the battery, increasing the alternator's work load. My battery terminal and battery post is nice and clean, so I don't think that is the problem.
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It could also be your alternator to engine block connection, the engine ground wires or the positive wires from the alternator to the battery.
I'm not saying it definitely is your only problem, but it could be a contributing factor and since many others have this problem, it may help them out.
I'm familiar with the poor design that VW did on the AC systems. However I can't see the belts squealing on the lot way back in the day.
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Is there a part number for this lawn mower belt?
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It could also be your alternator to engine block connection, the engine ground wires or the positive wires from the alternator to the battery.
I'm not saying it definitely is your only problem, but it could be a contributing factor and since many others have this problem, it may help them out.
I'm familiar with the poor design that VW did on the AC systems. However I can't see the belts squealing on the lot way back in the day.
Way back in the day? You mean when the car was new off the lot? I suspect belts were of better quality/ materials and a different design back then. I think they were regular belts with no teeth or cogs for cooling, which means more surface area contact, a better grip and they'd last longer. I think those teeth or cogs is a way to use less rubber in the belt (cheaper to manufacture) and does not do anything really useful. Nowadays manufacturers don't care about quality, only the bottom $ line.
I can't believe the brand new Goodyear Gatorback alt belt stretched out and became useless in a little over 3 weeks.
So far the lawnmower belt has not needed an adjustment and has not squealed at all with approx 300 miles on them.
Dieselbalz, I listed the p/n of the lawnmower belt I used earlier.
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Is there a part number for this lawn mower belt?
the part number is for an a/c equipped vehicle.. FWIW..
us without A/C, were gonna have to find out what belt fits on our own.
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Missed that Gates 6827, for those scoring at home.
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Updating this thread with new info. With a photo tach, I measured the RPM of the Gates 6827 lawnmower alternator belt (alt with AC) and at idle it is 708 RPM. Since my idle is around 1000 rpm (yes a little on the high side), so, at 65 mph, which is around 3000 RPM in 5th, the lawnmower belt is at 2124 RPM. According to a lawnmower repair place, some belted lawnmower engines run at 3500 rpm, and I am running it at way below that so the belt may be fine in the long run. So far I have not had to adjust the belt tension and it has not squealed at all.
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Updating this thread with new info. With a photo tach, I measured the RPM of the Gates 6827 lawnmower alternator belt (alt with AC) and at idle it is 708 RPM. Since my idle is around 1000 rpm (yes a little on the high side), so, at 65 mph, which is around 3000 RPM in 5th, the lawnmower belt is at 2124 RPM. According to a lawnmower repair place, some belted lawnmower engines run at 3500 rpm, and I am running it at way below that so the belt may be fine in the long run. So far I have not had to adjust the belt tension and it has not squealed at all.
will the lawnmower belts fly apart if you turn them too many RPMs?
my diesel regularly sees 5000+ rpms..
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Updating this thread with new info. With a photo tach, I measured the RPM of the Gates 6827 lawnmower alternator belt (alt with AC) and at idle it is 708 RPM. Since my idle is around 1000 rpm (yes a little on the high side), so, at 65 mph, which is around 3000 RPM in 5th, the lawnmower belt is at 2124 RPM. According to a lawnmower repair place, some belted lawnmower engines run at 3500 rpm, and I am running it at way below that so the belt may be fine in the long run. So far I have not had to adjust the belt tension and it has not squealed at all.
will the lawnmower belts fly apart if you turn them too many RPMs?
my diesel regularly sees 5000+ rpms..
I will be calling Gates and will ask that question amonst others.
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FYI. I learned (from talking to engineers at belt manufacturers) that automotive V-belts are not designed to have a roller pressed against the flat part of the belt as you are doing, whereas the lawnmower belts are. If you have no problems, then great. If you do, you may want to consider going to a lawnmower belt.
Well, so far I'm proving the belt engineers dead wrong. I've got over 7K miles on this setup and no slip. The Dayco automotive belt looks like the day I installed it. FWIW, I tried a wider automotive belt with the stock tensioner. The belt kept slipping and failed in a couple of weeks.