VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: malone on August 17, 2011, 02:29:30 am
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You probably remember my '97 Golf CL with the early 1.6/1.9TD Frankenmotor: Part 1 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=1352.0) and Part 2 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=2377.0). The engine died due to v-belt slippage on the water pump. The engine was eventually sold to Dave aka 935racer aka Passenger Performance, who dynoed 192whp with a bigger turbo. I bought a 2006 Jetta TDI DSG and it bores the heck out of me (my wife also took possession of it).
I still think of picking up another IDI, but I'm an ECU tuner, TDI donors are becoming cheaper, TDIs tend to get better fuel economy, and they support more low-RPM torque out of the box, so I decided to go that route for my new daily driver.
I picked up a '96 Golf CL and a '98 Jetta TDI donor car.
Progress:
Perform intake cleaningPerform TDI timing belt jobInstall performance camshaftInstall 400ft-lb torque clutchInstall TDI engine + transmission in GolfInstall 5 lug 11.3" VR6 brake parts with all new suspension bearingsInstall TDI pedal cluster in GolfInstall telescoping steering column in GolfInstall TDI wiring harness in Golf - almost complete. JS Performance takeover at this pointHook up coolant system and V belts- Install cruise control in Golf
- Install heated seats in Golf
Install coilovers- Make a high MPG / performance switchable-on-the-fly tune.
- Completely re-do interior
- Full body work + repaint
Pulling the 1.8L 8v 90HP gas motor from the Golf:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/golf_up_engine_down.jpg)
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/IMG_1723-resized.jpg)
Pulling the 1.9L 8v 90HP AHU TDI from the Jetta:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/IMG_1734-resized.jpg)
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/IMG_1737-resized.jpg)
Cleaned out this intake gunk:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/IMG_1746-resized.jpg)
My friend helping pull the dashboard. We removed the dash+rebar from both vehicles. The Golf's rebar was literally dripping with rust while the Jetta's was rust-free (factory painted).
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/IMG_1885-resized.jpg)
The joy of wiring (as I progressed into it I learned that it's not really difficult, just time-consuming):
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/IMG_1889-resized.jpg)
Due to my upcoming 2 weeks absence, I'm leaving the rest of the conversion to JS Performance:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/images/mk3tdiproject/IMG_1890-resized.jpg)
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Good work. Can't wait to see what you do with the tune.
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Your my Hero! Ive always wanted to do a AHU into a MK3 2 door. Cant wait to see it done!
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Thanks guys. I'm thinking of trying a supercharger, but that's for way later (possibly at least a year).
Pros:
- Easy to install (replaces the A/C compressor) with short IC plumbing. A "250HP" supercharger that I have in mind is more compact than the A/C compressor
- Instant throttle response with virtually no boost lag
- Apparently no other TDI owner has tried supercharging yet
Cons:
- Less efficient than a turbo
- Fuel economy may be in a world of hurt
A clutched supercharger will reduce the MPG hit, however, and I won't mind daily driving NA if I want to conserve fuel. Twin-charging using stock turbo + big supercharger is another possibility and still easy to setup.
Anyway I'll post updated pictures in a couple weeks or so.
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A "250HP" supercharger that I have in mind is more compact than the A/C compressor
Hmmm... what supercharger would that be? Lysholm possibly? I've always liked the idea of adding a supercharger in my engine bay somewhere :P
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I bet a k03 would just spin off somewhere and take off into space if you double-charged it lol.
1-Here is the end all ahu setup,
2-having your ecu modded to control vnt
3-install vnt
4-be a boss
5-???
6-profit?
;D :P
sorry too much time on vortex.
I would try a supercharger, here is a trick, if you block the vac line to the map sensor, you can do a looot of stuff without going into limp mode.. not sure how you would control fueling based on boost, but it would sound SICCKK, and you could put a cool exhaust on it instead of the played straightpipe.
Just food for thought.
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Hmmm... what supercharger would that be? Lysholm possibly? I've always liked the idea of adding a supercharger in my engine bay somewhere :P
I can't disclose the supercharger yet. It's an agreement that I have with a shop who's helping with the project. I hate withholding information, but it will be revealed if it's installed in my car. I can however tell you that it's not a Lysholm, which is a bit too large physically and too noisy.
I might tune a 2001 MK4 Golf TDI with an Eaton supercharger. Here's a picture of his exhaust that's already installed:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/sdi_header1.jpg)
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/sdi_header3.jpg)
He definitely needed the muffler as his car is way too loud without it.
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install vnt
I already have a custom rear engine mount that will allow room for a standard VNT layout, just in case I go that route. VNT is good, but everyone including their mother and their dog have already done a VNT conversion. I tuned one TDI with THREE VNT turbos.
I will eventually decide between a GTB1749VB (cheap, simple to install, and still strong - highly recommended for a budget daily driver), a GTB1756VK (faster spool, more power overall, but it's either much more expensive or time-consuming to setup), or supercharger (unique, potentially instant throttle response, cool noise, but the charger that I'm considering is very expensive).
I don't want to push more than 24 PSI boost with the stock 300,000 km AHU engine, so whatever I do, I'm going to take it easy until I'm ready to drop in a fresh ALH TDI engine that can handle more boost and more torque.
I would try a supercharger, here is a trick, if you block the vac line to the map sensor, you can do a looot of stuff without going into limp mode.. not sure how you would control fueling based on boost, but it would sound SICCKK
I will keep the MAP sensor and I will experiment with MAF delete. Either the MAP or MAF values will determine how much fuel to inject, pretty simple. I will also either modify my boost control map to reflect the supercharger's boost ouput based on RPM (that's one way to keep the ECU happy), or disable the 'negative boost deviation' code/limp and simply set the boost control map to whatever max. boost I'll allow. Easy workaround. Another way is to spend time completely re-writing the ECU and remove all N75 control (it's pretty well entrenched in the stock software), but that won't make a better running engine.
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Malone,
I'd pay $500 for a seminar where you thoroughly explained how to modify ecu's in the manner. (know how to immo delete?? lol)
You are beyond me for now.
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Last night someone smashed the Golf's driver side window and stole the turbo & downpipe. First time I've experienced a break-in. I posted this project in a local VW forum 2 days ago and I wonder if someone there decided that he needed my parts.
The turbo and downpipe had 300,000km on them so I'm not too bothered. It gives me an excuse to get newer ones. I also bought an identical MK3 Golf parts car for $250 (with Hella MK4-look headlights!) so I can replace the glass or door with minor inconvenience.
My Golf was parked outside and it's my fault for not properly securing all the parts. JSP was kind enough to offer a replacement turbo. I'm exploring various boost options right now.
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That is pretty crappy 300k or not, i have to say if you ever catch them i hope you extract some justice! keep eye on local cl and ebay!
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People who steal stuff need to have their hands cut off.
Anywho, nice build except for the mk3 part. ;D
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Maybe I should post a wanted ad on Dubberz and see if anyone in the abbotsford area has a turbo and downpipe to sell ;)
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Maybe I should post a wanted ad on Dubberz and see if anyone in the abbotsford area has a turbo and downpipe to sell ;)
Do It!!!! Then have some VWDiesel Justice :P
and That really sucks about the break in, I had my TDI broken into last week, they didn';t have time to take anything before I came flying out of the house
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cool, so how much are you selling for? ;D
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I love it :)
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Sucks that things got stolen. I have a lot of VW stuff and I try to keep it out of parking lots, but something like you were doing I wouldn't have thought it bad or expected anything close to that to happen.
At least at home the 100lb german shepard/wolf mix and an array of weapons and ammo have curbed those who have come unexpectedly. Nothing like the sound of our dog growling and the ring of a shot gun to make those try and find an easier target.
What do you plan on doing and how fast now that more pieces need to be made?
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Got a K03/K04 hybrid turbo for a good price. It's a direct replacement for the stock K03 in the AHU TDI. It realistically adds maybe only 5-10HP without increasing smoke+EGT, although an AHU TDI ran high 14s in the 1/4 mile with it.
I was tempted to get a VNT-17 but right now it's over $800 and it requires custom IC plumbing. I don't have the resources to fabricate/weld so it may ultimately cost twice as much as the K03/K04. I wish G60ING could duplicate his IC plumbing for me, or in fact his entire turbo+EGR setup, it looks good!
Another reason for sticking with a 'stock' turbo is that it's better for compound charging if I ever go that route. It keeps everything as simple (close to stock) as possible. Typical VNT issues are also a bit harder to diagnose in a compound system.
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Sorry for not reading about the stolen turbo part.
There is no way that I could duplicate the intercooler plumbing without a TDI Mk3 to base the pipes off of because my G60 intercooler is way different than the Jetta one:
G60 Rado intercooler:
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1d928b3127ccefdc72f7340a000000030O08CZtXDdy5ag9vPgo/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/)
Mk3 TDI:
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d811b3127ccec7289fb89a5500000040O08CZtXDdy5ag9vPgo/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
I'd also consider doing a FMIC on the mk3 because its so easy when compared to the corrado.
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I hope all is well and you are too busy driving and chipping to post :)
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While we were going to finish fitting the VR6 brakes a couple weeks ago, I discovered that my VR6 DE calipers, brake lines, and a few other small bits were stolen with the stock turbo+downpipe. I couldn't find used VR6 calipers so I recently ordered 'remanufactured' ones and I expect to get them in tomorrow. I can't wait to drive this :) This weekend is a possibility.
I heard about your turbo, Frank. Did you get it analyzed yet?
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any updates on this?
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I drove it home a few days ago. Really happy with it. Here's a quick snap from a few minutes ago:
(http://i.imgur.com/p13qE.jpg)
Today I installed a Stage 1 tune and it feels strong. It's nowhere as quick as my old 1.6TD with GT20 turbo though :)
Plans for this Saturday:
- Install an electric 6-8 PSI fuel lift pump.
- Hammer the injection pump. The IQ is way off (beyond the VAG-COM adjustment range) and my idle vibrates more than it should.
- Install complete OEM 0.216 injectors.
- Install gauges.
2-3 week plan:
- Install ECU emulator so I can do live-tuning while the car's in motion. My favourite tool. Someone will drive while I operate the computer, of course.
6 month plan (I want to bring this car into near showroom condition and then enjoy it for many years to come):
- 2.9 bar MAP sensor and 21 PSI tune.
- Full interior restoration with bolster seats i.e. MK2 recaros or MK5.
- Full repaint.
- 6 speed 02M transmission with Peloquin LSD.
This car has great off-boost acceleration. I think the Colt Stage 2 cam helped - it noticeably increases low-RPM torque according to dyno charts. The K03/K04's boost ramp-up is also very smooth and not too sudden.
One thing I like more about this TDI (compared to my old 160-192whp 1.6TD) is the low-RPM torque. Passing cars at 2000 RPM feels so smooth and effortless. Awesome.
Someone has been test fitting a G60 on a TDI for me. Obviously it isn't 100% bolt-on, but it doesn't look like too much work. I am kind of shying away from it now though, as I don't feel the need for lots more boost. My goal is to have a simple and low-maintenance daily driver with mostly original/OEM parts.
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A fresh swap project like this does not come 100% problem-free, of course:
- The car has the original TDI O2A transmission and an upgraded SBC clutch, but the shifter feels very notchy. It's clunkier than a MK2 transmission, if that gives you an idea. Any suggestions on where I should look to make it smoother? If I can fix this, then I probably won't bother with the O2M 6-speed swap. The other related issue is that if I lift the clutch pedal even just 1cm off the floor, the gears can grind during shifts.
- Cruise control does not work. I'll probably want it during a 2012 Summer road trip. This Golf originally did not have cruise control, but I did transfer the entire fusebox, pedal wiring, and dash wiring from the '98 Jetta TDI. The Golf also did not (and still does not) have ABS.
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Cruise for an AHU needs the brake and clutch switch hooked up.
it doesn`t need ABS.
How did you make it run without the brake and clutch switch hooked up?
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I'll check the brake and clutch switches. The only fault code I saw was EGR, which I deleted in the tune (for now).
I have a feeling that the cruise control stalk (on the steering wheel column) isn't wired in. Should be easy :)
Thanks
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You go into measureing blocks to check all your cruise control signals[ sorry, I don't remember which channel] The important item is the brake switches. They both have to switch on/off at exactly the same time
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The fuel timing didn't look great (I'm very picky about details like these):
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/malone-ahu/malone-1998-timing1.png)
This issue is very common and it's apparent in at least half of VE TDIs. Optimizing the timing will restore power and possibly fuel economy.
An 5-9 PSI electric fuel lift pump was added last Saturday. As a result the fuel timing is noticeably improved.
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/malone-ahu/malone-1998-timing2.png)
It pulls harder in the upper RPM range now. Another common cause for poor timing is the collar walking out of the case relief valve (see middle valve in the picture below). The case relief valve is in the diesel fuel injection pump:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/malone-ahu/reliefvalve.jpg)
The collar can be pressed back in, but it'll walk out again especially if more power is in the picture. To prevent this from happening, I will do the keystone mod:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/malone-ahu/keystonemod.png)
The above picture is a homemade keystone courtesy of StealthTDI. I will be using a different design made of steel.
I'll post the updated timing graph after it's done.
The following mods were also done last Saturday:
- Euro 0.216mm injectors
- Hammer mod (injection pump calibration). Originally 0.8 IQ, now 3.2 IQ.
- Stage 1.5 ECU tune
Boost looks good and I haven't done any tweaking yet. Leaving it at just shy of 18 PSI sustained for now (typical max. safe boost for a stock K03 turbo):
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/malone-ahu/malone-1998-boost-stage1point5.png)
I would probably estimate it at 190ft-lb torque right now. When I had stock injectors and a Stage 1 tune, a MK3 VR6 buddy commented that it pulls like a VR6. But there is much more potential as it's currently running a mild tune and the K03/K04 hybrid turbo is designed for 22 PSI. I am happy with the way it performs now, though.
Maybe I'm spoiled by my old 2006 MK5 Jetta TDI (now my wife's), but the AHU vibration at idle is a bit much. It's smooth as glass once the RPM is >1100. I need to ensure that I have stock TDI mounts installed. If not, time to order some.
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I've never heard of this keystone mod. Can you describe it a little further?
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I've never heard of this keystone mod. Can you describe it a little further?
x2
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I've never heard of this keystone mod. Can you describe it a little further?
I find many pumps that are getting pulled and rebuilt for no problem other than low case pressure. They can't maintain the proper advance w/o case pressure.
Simply pull out the case relief valve, next to the fuel inlet. It is the strange piece with 10mm flats. The insides begin to walk out over time. Just hammer the retainer back in so it's flush with the bottom of the valve. Be extremely careful not to get dirt into the pump, cuz this is right at the front lift pump. Spray with carb cleaner and use compressed air to blow away dirt before removing the valve. Use a clean hammer too so dirt doesn't enter the valve. This will allow air to enter, but most pumps will be fine and start up ok and reprime, no problem. Don't open or remove this valve with car running or you'll get a good shower.
If you're getting smoky starts, and poor performance, the timing piston isn't working. If it gets real bad, you'll get start of injection faults. If your car dies or runs very poorly w/o faults, it usually means it is running out of fuel.
The middle valve shows the problem. The right valve is fixed.
Also fyi, increasing case pressure doesn't improve performance in any way. The camplate timing solenoid controls the pressure to the timing piston wrt #3 lift sensor and rpms and load request. However, if the piston is scored and leaking badly, increasing case pressure and running bioD, with greater viscosity can make the pump work good enough to get it off the lot, if you're trying to unload a hunker w/a bad pump.
(http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/8936relief_problem-med.jpg)
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Still waiting for the keystones, and a few other bits. In the meantime I got 2008 GTI Intergalos seats and they're extremely comfortable. If I ever get another Mk2/MK3, these seats would be my first modification, even before a TDI swap. Many thanks go to JS Performance for helping install them:
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/1996-golf/interlagos-seats3.jpg)
They are heated seats but I have to hook up the wiring, which should be fairly simple to do.
Also pictured are a brand new OEM carpet, new floor mats (weathertech.ca), and Euro MK3 steering wheel with custom leather wrap.
After the holidays I plan to install gauges and dual chamber headlights. I also am going to do something engine/tuning-wise that no one else has ever done with TDIs in history. It'll be even cooler than the twin-charged w/ supercharger idea that I was exploring earlier.
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those seats are TITS!!
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Are you thinking about a compound turbo setup possibly? Maybe the stock k03 with a k24?
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Maybe the stock k03 with a k24?
Oooh I like the sounds of that!
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Oh, and those seats are very nice.
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While I was tuning a couple TDIs at JSP, a few mods were done to my MK3:
- Evolution Odin MK3 skid plate. It sat way too low with a lot of gap below the engine- it would hit virtually every speedbump before my front tires could touch the speed bump. JSP removed the front spacers so the skid plate sits higher. I haven't hit anything yet.
- Solid subframe bushings installed.
- The Injection pump was too retarded, it's advanced now.
- Keystone installed in injection pump case relief valve.
The combination of the skid plate and solid subframe bushings makes my car vibrate a lot more at idle. Diesel engines, especially older ones, normally shake more, so I'll have to deal with it or get softer bushings installed.
Below is the fuel timing update since my injection pump timing adjustment and keystone mod. I notice a big improvement in mid-high RPM acceleration. I'm still unable to reach 18 degree timing. If my fuel pressure looks OK, then my 300,000km injection pump may need a rebuild. I'm happy with the way it runs for now. I plan on swapping in a MK4 ALH TDI engine with 11mm pump in the near future.
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/malone-ahu/malone-1998-timing3.png)
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Hey Mark,
Do you think the improvement was from the keystone mod or the timing mod? Did you notice anything wrong when you installed the keystone? What pump advance are you running? Thanks
-Don
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The case relief valve looked OK when it was pulled out. The collar didn't pop out out of the valve much, if at all. The keystone was installed anyway to prevent the collar from popping out in the future.
That said, I think the biggest performance improvement came from advancing the injection pump. My pump timing was close to the red line (around 5#). Now it's set at 70 or 71, just below the green line. I used to have a fair bit of white smoke at cold start, but now it's almost non-existent.
Mark
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Any updates?
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Yes Please! I have just read Part 1, Part 2 and this one.. All this after noon. Holy brain overload.
Updates! Updates! Updates! ;)
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There's no major update for the MK3 Golf TDI yet. I picked up the car pictured below. It's an original 1997 Golf Variant Syncro (4 wheel drive) TDI!
(http://www.malonetuning.com/misc/syncro-osoyoos.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ityw0.jpg)
Drove it 4,155km home in 3 days. A few things happened on the way:
1. Almost got ran off the road a couple times by gangstas in Detroit.
2. Stopped at Chicago VW to pick up a new thermostat - lots of employees were checking out the car.
3. Got scared when I stepped on a poisonous looking snake next to a diesel pump in Butte, Montana. It turned out to be a fake, and a lady working the gas station had a good laugh. I suspect that she put it there to make her dull days more interesting.
For those wondering what I'm going to do next:
1. Full bodywork+respray for both MK3s (make rust-free and ding-free).
2. New suspension+wheels for the Variant.
3. MK5 or MK6 seats in Variant?
3. HFLOX Warp 2 or 3 nozzles and a smoke-free ECU tune in the Variant.
It'll be a while before I do more engine modifications in either TDI. I'm tempted to drop a ~2010 CR140 TDI engine into the Variant and there won't be much worry about traction if I push 400ft-lb torque.. but the original engine is in such perfect shape - it runs like new with no smoke and no leaks.. so it'll be hard for me to chuck that out, for now!
Mark
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That's awesome!
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Great read :)
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There is a 2011 or 2012 engine and transmission on craigslist in NH with zero miles if you are interested in spending $9k plus shipping.
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Thanks Frank. I was pleased to find out that Mexico has a bi-turbo 2.0 TDI. Mexico isn't that far of a drive from here, or shipping may cost less than Europe. A single-turbo CR140 or CR170 will have better or easier upgrade potential, but the bi-turbo is already a strong engine out of the box. It also has a wide powerband, which is ideal for syncro. A power bump from an ECU tune will be more than enough for me. I need to find out if the 2.0 biturbo will fit in a MK3 engine bay. Without the CANbus and wheel sensors, making cruise control work may be tricky, but this MK3 Variant doesn't have cruise control to begin with. I drove 7,300km on long highway trips this year alone I haven't felt the need for cruise control yet.
Edit: Has anyone seen a biturbo 2.0 TDI swap into a MK3-MK6 chassis? Are the engine mount points the same as a CR140 or CR170? I'd like to collect any information out there.
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This car will the recipient of this 2010 Golf TDI powertrain swap:
(http://i.imgur.com/3Y3hgql.jpg)
It is a 140HP 2.0L 16v TDI stock engine. One of my customers with the same engine produced 271whp on one dyno and 272whp on a different dyno near Denver, Colorado with over 5,000ft elevation:
(http://i.imgur.com/BOBl4rs.png)
His only power modifications are larger exhaust, a GTB2260VK turbo, and ECU tune. The engine and fueling system are completely stock. The turbo is rated for 35 PSI and he is currently boosting 29 PSI tapering down to 27 PSI. I was expecting 210whp so we were all pleasantly surprised. I am however waiting for additional dyno verification by another 2010 TDI customer with the same turbo setup.
The main bottleneck seems to be the small ports in the cylinder head, and maybe the HPFP. Some believe the stock TDI fuel injectors are good up to 400HP. I have some doubts, but there's only one way to find out!
I look forward to making some power with this project.
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Very awesome
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Nice!
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If you can make it work, this car will be in Diesel Power magazine. I'm calling it right now!
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Haha, I have a very similar photo of Jezebel with her new engine in a trailer too!!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/525024_10151490494371427_1313485111_n.jpg)
Mine's an AHU that's going to be an mTDI one day when it grows up.
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That does look familiar! You'll love the TDI :)
To make up for the lack of snow here, I had some syncro fun on a big field:
(http://i.imgur.com/VgHj2al.jpg)
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Did you give up on your 96 Golf?
How did you make out with the cruise control and those clutch/brake switchs?
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Haha! No I haven't given it up. The brake+clutch switches were mostly fixed. It solved the brief dead pedal issue after an engine start but cruise control didn't work yet.
A 2010 TDI ECU means a completely different cruise control setup - I won't even bother to get that working. Cruise control isn't important to me, I can't even remember the last time I used it in my MK5 TDI.