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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: myvolkswagen on August 12, 2011, 10:11:54 am
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I'm thinking about running a ko3 at 15 psi because I want that punch down low instead of having to constantly rev the bag off the engine to make some power. Anyway my question is will it still have good passing power on the highway because I have heard the bigger turbos are more optimal there
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VGT15 or VGT17?... best of both worlds
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a K03 is neither of those..
and a VNT 15/17 still runs out of breath up top.
i drive one daily..
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what i meant was, put a VGT15/17... the 17 is too small you say, then got to a VGT22?
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ive been told that VGT and VNT turbos are very different..
and for the fact that the garrett ones say "VNT1749xx" right on them.
there is indeed a difference. the turbos john deere uses are VGT.
the turbos TDIs, and duramax's use, are both garrett VNT turbos..
anyways.. im talking that in the last few hundred RPMs of power, they run out of breath.
they hold boost till red line. mine pulls hard to 15 psi, then its at about 20 psi if i rev it to where the pump rollers skip..
its not surging i dont think. (isnt that where it goes faster, and still makes the same boost?)
but i dont have my vanes hooked up either.. they were coked up when i got it.
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anyways, to reply to the original quote, it will be fun to drive, but its not going to have the big pull up top like a big turbo would.. its gonna have lots of power down low, and be really peaky.. not really bad, but the power will definitely peak when it goes out of its efficiency range..
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The k03 on the 1.9 AHU is incredible! I can't imagine it would be too much different on the 1.6. I actually had a similar thread a while ago to put my tdi setup on my 1.6.
What I found is that the k03 is efficient to 18psi intercooled. And can pull 18 all day. Any more and your not making anything better for any component of the engine.
It will be awesome torque wise. And honestly what rpm are you going to be cruising on the highway? Most likely you'll do better than a big turbo simply because your more than likely going to be within 23-2800 rpm's highway.. And that will be right in the mother load of the k03 ;) a T3 will just be coming on boost at 2600 on the hwy.
Smaller turbo's ftmfw :)
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it will be more fun, and not top out as quick on the 1.6
vdubspeed loves his..
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its not surging i dont think. (isnt that where it goes faster, and still makes the same boost?)
surging happens when the turbo is putting out too high of a PR with too low of a flow rate. the pressurized air is able to over come the compressor and force itself backwards through it. its really hard on the turbine shaft, and can cause turbo to blow to pieces sending shratnel into your intake.
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its not surging i dont think. (isnt that where it goes faster, and still makes the same boost?)
surging happens when the turbo is putting out too high of a PR with too low of a flow rate. the pressurized air is able to over come the compressor and force itself backwards through it. its really hard on the turbine shaft, and can cause turbo to blow to pieces sending shratnel into your intake.
ok, well then the surging is when the turbo starts to scream like a G-60 supercharger. lol..
i used to surge my VNT daily.. they MUST be great little turbos..
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Ya it's off a 1.9. I think I'm gonna just give it a go. I think I'll like it better. And ya probably 2800-3000 so if you didn't downshift it should pull pretty hard
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my turbo setup, i can be in 4th gear, going about 40, and just slowly lay into the pedal, and soon, im going 90+
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surging is usually a barking fluttering noise, and its usually happens with too big of a turbo, i dunno what noise ur turbo was making it was probably just some funky over spun noise haha. i drove a tdi beetle with a burnt up vnt turbo and it sounded like a g60
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Swapping to a K03 will require you to change the exhaust manifold, turbo, oil drain line, intake hose from airbox to turbo, intake hose from turbo to intake manifold and also the downpipe. There might be more that I am missing. I think that only the oil drain and intake hose from airbox to turbo will need to be custom. You are going to need to bend the oil feed line as well. All the other pieces off the MK3 should bolt on no problem.
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I have both the t3 feed line and the ko3 one and the t3 line fit on with very little resistance. I have pieces ready for the drain aswell. I'm not overly worried about the other pieces either. I have lots of stuff to build custom pieces
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surging is usually a barking fluttering noise, and its usually happens with too big of a turbo, i dunno what noise ur turbo was making it was probably just some funky over spun noise haha. i drove a tdi beetle with a burnt up vnt turbo and it sounded like a g60
oh yes.. turbo bark.. ive done that a few times.. its hard to make it bark.
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i used to get the merc spec t3 on my old mk3 aaz to surge, changing up gears when at full boost and laying into the pedal again, at more than 20 psi but low rpm (like 2000).
I had a 02a ASD gearbox (very long ratios) and it wasnt the best combination for legal highways speeds, but 4th gear was great and illegal speeds were easily within reach.
a K03 sized turbo on the 1.9 is great at highways speeds for overtaking, thats what I had before the t3. On a smaller capacity engine it would be a little better I reckon, especially in a smaller car like a mk1.
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i used to get the merc spec t3 on my old mk3 aaz to surge, changing up gears when at full boost and laying into the pedal again, at more than 20 psi but low rpm (like 2000).
I had a 02a ASD gearbox (very long ratios) and it wasnt the best combination for legal highways speeds, but 4th gear was great and illegal speeds were easily within reach.
a K03 sized turbo on the 1.9 is great at highways speeds for overtaking, thats what I had before the t3. On a smaller capacity engine it would be a little better I reckon, especially in a smaller car like a mk1.
because you are at max boost while cruising... haha
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because you are at max boost while cruising... haha
ahh yes - if you can get a double acting wastegate actuator and rig up a vacuum solenoid to open the wastegate at low throttle settings (like the aaz in the mk3 runs standard) then you dont have to cruise around with 12psi of boost.
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Really what's so wrong with cruising at max boost? The turbo is still in its efficiency, and not to mention instant power. I see no downside
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Really what's so wrong with cruising at max boost? The turbo is still in its efficiency, and not to mention instant power. I see no downside
I agree, I saw a highway mpg drop when I went from a k14-6psi cruising, to a k24-3psi cruising. And with the k24 I had to drop to 4th to do major passing, while k14 would pull hard in 5th at 60mph.
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So basically I see the k03 being able to pull hard from like 50 in 5th up to max rpm on a 1.6. It did on my 1.9.. The 1.6 should have better use of it at higher rpms I would think. Also I would think cruising at higher boost to be better because things are still burning more efficiently.
No downside to a k03 on a 1.6 ;)
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So basically I see the k03 being able to pull hard from like 50 in 5th up to max rpm on a 1.6. It did on my 1.9.. The 1.6 should have better use of it at higher rpms I would think. Also I would think cruising at higher boost to be better because things are still burning more efficiently.
No downside to a k03 on a 1.6 ;)
PROVIDED you plan to be at 18PSI or less... :)
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A sustained intercooled psi of 15 with spikes to 18-20 will be within the range of the k03's ability and not decrease its life expectancy. It hauls ass on a tdi with only 12psi.. 15 and more fuel should be a rocket.
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there is a downside to cruising around at 12psi - its extra heat loading on the engine and extra blowby that you don't need. You'll likely see increased oil consumption.
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yea, cruising at high boost is bad..
it takes heat to make boost. and it takes fuel to make heat.
it takes me alot of pedal to be making 12 psi boost. my car only makes 3-4 psi cruising with the VNT..
12 psi boost and im accelerating, not cruising.
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Not with a k03. Your not making high boost because your dumping a *** ton of fuel in to the motor, your making high boost because a k03 is literally the size of your one hand in a fist. It is not the fact that you are moving hot air, just air to begin with.
High boost is not bad on a small turbo, it is uber efficient. If it were bad how did my tdi make it to 430,000kms constantly cruising at full boost? And make 50+ mpg while doing so?? :P
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Not with a k03. Your not making high boost because your dumping a *** ton of fuel in to the motor, your making high boost because a k03 is literally the size of your one hand in a fist. It is not the fact that you are moving hot air, just air to begin with.
High boost is not bad on a small turbo, it is uber efficient. If it were bad how did my tdi make it to 430,000kms constantly cruising at full boost? And make 50+ mpg while doing so?? :P
Yeah, you can't compare with a vnt, because you aint got no wastegate. Cruising on the highway, with the load of speed, the energy is there. turn it into boost and become more efficient, or dump it out the tailpipe.
My truck got much better mpgs with a small turbo and higher boost on the highway, than it did with a larger turbo and less boost. Nothing else changed on the motor, so, there is no way my motor became more efficient and got worse mpg. Put a t3 on a mk3 ahu/1z and tell me it is more efficient. ..
it's not
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To get the same efficiency out of a T3 you'd have to be burning alot more fuel to make the "hot" air to spool it. Don't forget that a k03 is at full boost of 12-13psi at 1900rpm, cruising at 2500 easy on the pedal probably has the motor at the same area boost wise.
A properly working VNT on the TDI it came on has the motor at higher boost levels than you think. They switched to the VNT so that the motor could have higher boost literally anytime it wanted it.
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Not with a k03. Your not making high boost because your dumping a *** ton of fuel in to the motor, your making high boost because a k03 is literally the size of your one hand in a fist. It is not the fact that you are moving hot air, just air to begin with.
High boost is not bad on a small turbo, it is uber efficient. If it were bad how did my tdi make it to 430,000kms constantly cruising at full boost? And make 50+ mpg while doing so?? :P
Yeah, you can't compare with a vnt, because you aint got no wastegate. Cruising on the highway, with the load of speed, the energy is there. turn it into boost and become more efficient, or dump it out the tailpipe.
My truck got much better mpgs with a small turbo and higher boost on the highway, than it did with a larger turbo and less boost. Nothing else changed on the motor, so, there is no way my motor became more efficient and got worse mpg. Put a t3 on a mk3 ahu/1z and tell me it is more efficient. ..
it's not
actually, I got better fuel economy out of my aaz mk3 with a t3 than I did with the stock t2 (which is same size as the k03). not the vw 1.6 spec t3 though, the merc spec t3 which has a much larger compressor.
I'm taking an average over ~40,000km (12 months driivng) of 5.7l/100km for the stock turbo and 5.4l/100km for the T3.
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What else changed when you did this turbo swap? Did you intercool it? change the fueling? change the tires? bearings? brake work? I mean 5.4 is a great avg, but its not really much different than 5.7. A few tanks in town could change your avg over the 40 thou. Plus over that many kilometers a ton of siht could have changed in your driving style, maybe you had an accident and it caused you to completely change driving habits? There is literally 3 billion factors that play in to every single persons mileage.. and no two cars can be compared figuratively.
It is weird though that you saw better mileage with the Merc T3 over the vw T2.. possibly because the T2 is inefficient? I don't know.
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I have less boost with the IC installed and cooler air. I saw a 5mpg increase since the IC. I bet less boost pushes the boost pin down somewhat less too.
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ahh yes, well cooled air can effectively be "less" air but the same efficiency and power gains as more boost.
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I have less boost with the IC installed and cooler air. I saw a 5mpg increase since the IC. I bet less boost pushes the boost pin down somewhat less too.
the air is also denser. where are you measuring boost at? usually the boost to the IP comes right off the turbo, pre IC
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I don't think I have "less" air, but I think the air gets smaller after cooled. Then since it doesn't take up as much space you can pack more of it into the engine at less psi. My IC is pretty big and I used to be able to see a 27psi spike when I played around last winter, now 21psi is tops.
@ keaton I am giving the lda boost post IC. With all the egt issues I had it seemed to delay the inevitable.
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What else changed when you did this turbo swap? Did you intercool it? change the fueling? change the tires? bearings? brake work? I mean 5.4 is a great avg, but its not really much different than 5.7. A few tanks in town could change your avg over the 40 thou. Plus over that many kilometers a ton of siht could have changed in your driving style, maybe you had an accident and it caused you to completely change driving habits? There is literally 3 billion factors that play in to every single persons mileage.. and no two cars can be compared figuratively.
It is weird though that you saw better mileage with the Merc T3 over the vw T2.. possibly because the T2 is inefficient? I don't know.
there could have been "3 billion things" that changed, but would I have bothered to post my relevant experience if there was? I'm not in the habit of providing bogus information for arguments sake, but I'll happily provide argument against generalised blanket statements about the efficiency of engines, especially when said generalisations are made without any scientific proof.
The car had same wheels, tyre size, intercooler, suspension height. For some periods with the T3 fitted I also had roofracks, which I didnt have before. I always had the same air filter setup, same exhaust (only thing that changes was the flange, even the DP was the same. Same intake manifold. Same weekly commute of ~1000km.
the difference between 5.7 and 5.4 is about 6% which I'd call a measurable and valid variance. I kept a fuel log in my glovebox and I always filled up at the same pump and at the same service station, and always with commercially available B100.
the fuelling was turned down slightly from where it was with the t2 but the car was making more power and more peak torque, but with peak torque at 2800rpm with the t3 and 2000 with the t2. The fact that my engine made more power and torque with less fuelling with the larger turbo says a lot about efficiency to me.
The fact is, that yes, there are a lot of things that effect fuel economy, and its not correct, in any way, to make a general statement that says a small turbo is always better for fuel economy than a big one, or that highway cruising with lots of boost doesnt effect mpg or engine life, or a lot of other things.
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Not with a k03. Your not making high boost because your dumping a *** ton of fuel in to the motor, your making high boost because a k03 is literally the size of your one hand in a fist. It is not the fact that you are moving hot air, just air to begin with.
High boost is not bad on a small turbo, it is uber efficient. If it were bad how did my tdi make it to 430,000kms constantly cruising at full boost? And make 50+ mpg while doing so?? :P
Yeah, you can't compare with a vnt, because you aint got no wastegate. Cruising on the highway, with the load of speed, the energy is there. turn it into boost and become more efficient, or dump it out the tailpipe.
My truck got much better mpgs with a small turbo and higher boost on the highway, than it did with a larger turbo and less boost. Nothing else changed on the motor, so, there is no way my motor became more efficient and got worse mpg. Put a t3 on a mk3 ahu/1z and tell me it is more efficient. ..
it's not
actually, I got better fuel economy out of my aaz mk3 with a t3 than I did with the stock t2 (which is same size as the k03). not the vw 1.6 spec t3 though, the merc spec t3 which has a much larger compressor.
I'm taking an average over ~40,000km (12 months driivng) of 5.7l/100km for the stock turbo and 5.4l/100km for the T3.
T2 and K14 are the same.. K03 is smaller than both.
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T2 and K14 are the same.. K03 is smaller than both.
I have a t2 and a k14 on a bench at home, both from vw diesels... the k14 form an ecodiesel engine and the t2 from a mk3 aaz. the t2 is much smaller, and has the same compressor and turbine wheel diameters as the tdi spec k03.
there again, someone else posting general statements as fact that just arent true.
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Yes there a lots of different versions of a given turbo "frame". For example, the ecodiesel k14 is smaller than the AAZ k14.
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T2 and K14 are the same.. K03 is smaller than both.
I have a t2 and a k14 on a bench at home, both from vw diesels... the k14 form an ecodiesel engine and the t2 from a mk3 aaz. the t2 is much smaller, and has the same compressor and turbine wheel diameters as the tdi spec k03.
there again, someone else posting general statements as fact that just arent true.
the eco k14 is smaller than the standard k14.
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T2 and K14 are the same.. K03 is smaller than both.
I have a t2 and a k14 on a bench at home, both from vw diesels... the k14 form an ecodiesel engine and the t2 from a mk3 aaz. the t2 is much smaller, and has the same compressor and turbine wheel diameters as the tdi spec k03.
there again, someone else posting general statements as fact that just arent true.
no, what i said is completely 100% true.. check your facts buddy..
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hahaha.... i guess my own eyes must be decieving me..... turbo's lined up on a shelf at home, I've had them all fitted to my engines before, and rebuilt 3 of them, and I can't spot that the t2 and the k14 are exactly the same? wow i must be stupid.
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im not saying they are identical.. they are physically WAY different.. but the technical specs on them, almost identical.
if not, sue me.. thats just what the users of this forum have told me.. ive never even seen a T2 or a K14 (eco or normal) to compare them personally..
anyways.. this is way off topic, and has nothing to do with the original question..
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I have a KO3/K04 hybrid
at 82 mph I see 7psi
temp 685
I can make you the intake from the mk1 airbox in either ko3 or t3 ( inlet to turbo )with a oblong for the airbox inlet
there on the shelf at Mk1Autohaus
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Rabbit-Mk1-Golf-Caddy-1-6-TD-Snorkel-Air-Intake-Hose-/220679730082
I have just finished all the scirocco 16 v hoses and all the 8v & 16 v mk1 hoses
There were 13 assys just for the MK1 GTI
vanagon diesel all done, starting the 2.1 Syncro vanagon
Gee-Bee
P.S. do the 5 different Ducati motorcycle hoses
silicone of course
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You are the F ing man Gee Bee. I am glad to see you posting again, seems like it has been a while.
Is that K03/04 hybrid ball bearing and if so do you have a map at all or not? Does it suit your Giles pump? I see 700 or so at 80mph with my k24 if I am on flat ground cruising, but I will see 1600F if I am ripping on it up a hill. I would love to see a video of you driving and that turbo.
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I have a KO3/K04 hybrid
at 82 mph I see 7psi
temp 685
I can make you the intake from the mk1 airbox in either ko3 or t3 ( inlet to turbo )with a oblong for the airbox inlet
there on the shelf at Mk1Autohaus
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Rabbit-Mk1-Golf-Caddy-1-6-TD-Snorkel-Air-Intake-Hose-/220679730082
I have just finished all the scirocco 16 v hoses and all the 8v & 16 v mk1 hoses
There were 13 assys just for the MK1 GTI
vanagon diesel all done, starting the 2.1 Syncro vanagon
Gee-Bee
P.S. do the 5 different Ducati motorcycle hoses
silicone of course
thats great!
I made a k03-ko4 hybrid a while back for a m-tdi that went in to a '76 mk1. Seemed like a great combo.
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I have a KO3/K04 hybrid
at 82 mph I see 7psi
temp 685
I can make you the intake from the mk1 airbox in either ko3 or t3 ( inlet to turbo )with a oblong for the airbox inlet
there on the shelf at Mk1Autohaus
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Rabbit-Mk1-Golf-Caddy-1-6-TD-Snorkel-Air-Intake-Hose-/220679730082
I have just finished all the scirocco 16 v hoses and all the 8v & 16 v mk1 hoses
There were 13 assys just for the MK1 GTI
vanagon diesel all done, starting the 2.1 Syncro vanagon
Gee-Bee
P.S. do the 5 different Ducati motorcycle hoses
silicone of course
thats great!
I made a k03-ko4 hybrid a while back for a m-tdi that went in to a '76 mk1. Seemed like a great combo.
his is a K03 cold side, and a K04 hot side.. its the exact opposite of what everyone else is building.. his is a K04/03..
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My local shop just dud the 16v spindles with new bearings and hub's, he couldnt belive how fst this truck is..
I just finished all the vw gti rabbit silicone hoses (13 ) new assys ( MK1 AUTO HAUS )
some are interchageable for the other mk 1's
Iam doing the 2.1 vanagon hoses now for va-cafe and the two obsolete radiator nose hoses
I have been busy with new tooling
I added the ducati : Streetfighter, Multistrada,848/1098/1198 Model's
GB
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I think I'm gonna do this one weekend.. I have a Ko3 sittin around, and an engine sittin to mock it all up on too.. I must have boost again. This 1.6 n/a while be it fun and quick.. Just lacks that punch I'm looking for ;)
I figure a few days mocking it all up on the parts motor, should make me be able to install it all in an afternoon right?? :d
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I think I'm gonna do this one weekend.. I have a Ko3 sittin around, and an engine sittin to mock it all up on too.. I must have boost again. This 1.6 n/a while be it fun and quick.. Just lacks that punch I'm looking for ;)
I figure a few days mocking it all up on the parts motor, should make me be able to install it all in an afternoon right?? :d
absolutely.. took me less than an afternoon to install my turbo kit on my 84..
it was not so easy the first time around tho.. it took me days to get it installed and working properly on my 81.. but avter i got it installed once, and the bugs worked out, it was awesome..
come to oregon, drive my car.. lol..
you will never drive without boost ever again..
that K03 should spool as early, if not earlier than my VNT also..
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Right, I'm lookin for boost down real low. I drive mostly in town, and if I had boost from 19-2000 up itd be greeeaaAttttt. Plus on the highway my engine should be around 2500-**** where a T3 would only start to come on, the ko3 will be well underway on its boost.
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Let me know how it goes
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it is a good sixed turbo for town driving and stuff, but yeah I might have mentioned before (especially on a 1.9) the amount of torque you can make is too much for a daily driving 020 clutch setup.... probably on a 1.6 mildy tuned it would be fine.
On my 1.9, using long runner intake, big intercooler, 2.5" exhaust, n/a pump, bigger nozzles but only 16psi, it will slip the clutch (aaz disk with a SPEC heavy duty pressure plate) in 2/3/4/5 at about 1800rpm and full power.
once you get over 3000rpm the clutch can hang on (torque must be dropping off a lot by then) down low it just gets smashed.
Really need an 02A setup to make the best of it.