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General Information => Upgrades (non engine related ) => Topic started by: rabbitman on July 23, 2011, 11:50:20 pm
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So I bought $60 (amazon) polk audio 150w 4x6 plate speakers (4" round and a 1" tweeter) for the rear of the golf and for front speakers I have 3.5" 150w soundstorms also from amazon for $11. The bass is a joke.
I'm just running 'em off the deck so it's only 50w each and the speakers distort long before my ears hurt, I don't like my music loud if that helps. I don't really care about the fronts since I will send more power to the back anyways.
Why do they distort so easy with so little power to them?
I always thought amps just make things louder but then I've been hearing that it increases sound quality AND can make it louder. Is this true?
Would something like this help, http://cgi.ebay.com/Mini-Hi-Fi-Audio-Stereo-Amplifier-Car-Motorcycle-Boat-/110621827623?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item19c1932227
Thanks
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Or this. http://cgi.ebay.com/Mini-4x100w-4-Channel-Power-Amplifier-Amp-Car-Boat-Van-/260775822840?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item3cb77345f8
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room is your issue.... i too like simple miusic...
a pai of 5.5" 4 way speakers sound great... but no room for that in a bunny... unless you make holes :(
my toaster is the 1st car, 22 years driving/building here... that i ever bought a amp and a sub for...
walmart... 90$ pioneer deck, 32$ 12" sub box, pioneer 12" sub for 60ish, sony explode 600w amp 90ish, and 2 5.5" sony explosion 4 way speakers $48ish....
the only audio i have thats better is on my pc...
i gotta find some space saving amps/subs for my other cars now... sadly toaster has more room for the stuff then anything ive ever owned.. even my b3 wagon lacks room for subbox.. much less a place to hide a amp.. i fully use its cargo area..
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I think it is your speaker. Polk audio is my favorite especially the mm series, but a 4" speaker is just pretty small. A 5x7, 5.25 or 6.5 round even if the speaker grate is covering some of it would be a better suit for you. I used to try to run a 4" center channel and couldn't do it. It stunk. IMHO speakers smaller than 5" are tweeters only.
Amps do help clean things up. Usually amps will have a better signal to noise ratio than the head unit. Also, the head unit won't heat up as much if it isn't being used for the power.
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Thanks for the replys.
Yeah I know 4" is tiny but I thought I'd at least be able to get it loud enough to hear easy, I haven't driven the car much but I bet on a gravel road I won't be able to hear much music and for sure no bass.
Maybe I'll have to get a small sub and stick it under the seat, I'm not going to waste cargo space with huge subs and amps.
My main question is, why are the speakers rated for 150w but distort horribly bad with less than 50w?
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The speakers may be rated for 150 W peak and something much less for general listening. I run a simple deck radio with pretty low watts/ channel and I don't have a sound problem. I use the Rockford Fosgate truck boxes I used to have behind the seat in my F 150 Ford PU. So I don't lack bass.
I pulled the back seat out of my Rabbit and off to the sides is just enough room to drop a couple of 4 by 6 duel cone speakers in there. So all my sound comes from behind me. The problem is that the car is so noisy with out a decent headliner and insulation that there isn't much reason to try and beef up the sound system without solving the other acoustics first.
So I am working on that too. Every weekend a little bit. Unless she gives me a three day project and I only have two to get it done.
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what i wanna find is 15+ year old pioneer subbox that was fitted inside the spare tire... under seat sub box des not exist.. maybe behind seat.. not under..
i think id look for some late cabby door pockets.. think they are 5" rounds in them.. i hate thought of cutting holes in door panels.. BUT oe door pockets.. i think i can live with the result..
for the amp.. you can probally mount that under the seat.. BUT be carefull.. if like most mk1.. the carpet gets wet so the amp would too.. mounting under the glove box is a option.. but only if your 100% positive no water gets there..
i too refuse to give up cargo area for amp/subbox.. why toaster is 1st with as well non of it in cargo area.. got it shoe horned into what id consider "dead space" as using while driving.. a cooler at best would have fit (between front seats).. and well i can fit cooler between my leg and door opening.. :D
LOL.. loud.. imagine a tin box.. with a diesel in it.. funny though.. with my speaker positions.. i can hear music with doors open rollin over speed limit.. just those positions do not exist on normal cars..
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You don't mention what you're using for a head unit. While they may say 200W (50W x 4), what you may actually get is about 15W of clean sound before the amps in the head unit start distorting.
How are your speakers mounted? If there's no sort of enclosure behind them to allow the speaker to pressurize the air, you won't get much volume in the mid-to-low range, so all you'll get is lots of high range from the tweeter, and distortion as you try to get the volume of the mid-ranges to the point where you can hear anything.
Also, what're you running for speaker wire? If you're using the 18ga stuff that comes with the speakers, or even the stock wiring, you're making it harder for the speakers.
If you're going to go the amp route, hopefully your head unit has line-level outputs. That way if you get a decent amp, you don't have to worry about filtering the sound through the (likely cheap) output amps in the head unit.
The other things you want to look for in your speakers are throw length and speaker cone stiffness. The more throw the cone has (and magnet size helps with this) the better bass response you're likely to get. Also paper cone speakers (like the stock ones) can't put as much oomph into the mid-low frequencies as poly-cone ones can.
That said, speaker-wise, bigger is better (to a point). If you can't squeeze anything larger into the space you've got, you might want to consider a small sub that you can slip under a seat or into the rear. If you turn the crossover up on the sub it will fill in some of your lower mid-range as well as rounding out your bass.
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I know you can do a small sub in the back and not loose all your cargo area. My son had a Rabbit and he ran WVO in it. In the back was an aluminum half barrel that he converted to be a tank with a heater coil in it. In addition he strapped the amp on a board that had airspace between it and the board. It was mounted on the back of the back seat. He still had room for his sub. Granted it was small but it still contained a 10 inch, deep throw, monster magnet beast that needed all 300 watts the amp put out.
As explained above, using a better amp and line outs from the head unit generally give better sound. You might enclose the speakers. That is why I like my boxes. They can be moved around if I need to and they always sound the same. My son questions my logic for running the bulk in the back when it seems I could get by with some 7 or 8 inch boxes instead. Might have to go that way. He may just be looking for me to surplus the Rockfords so he can throw them in his Dodge Ram. ??? sneaky devil.
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In my Caddy, I put a Blaupunkt powered sub-woofer behind the seats and then added high pass filters on the other speakers to filter out the lowest bass frequencies. Made a huge difference in sound quality.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-4orTQyccxD1/p_023THB200A/Blaupunkt-THb-200A.html
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/products/2007/023/h023THB200A-fp.jpg)
In my old '78 Rabbit, I cut some 6x9 speakers into the rear C-pillar sheet metal. After making he opening, I sealed off the top and bottom with fiberglass and body filler up and down as far as I could reach. Those sealed enclosures made for very nice sound quality as I recall.
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FWIW, i have a 13" sub in my trunk (all 100 lbs of it) and i still have a decent amount of trunk left..
and an amp really cleans up the sound quality of the front speakers.. it makes them go from "ho-hum" loud, to "omg, my ears are bleeding" loud..
i have pioneer 3.5s in the dash, and kenwood 4x6s in the rear.. 4 speakers is more than enough sound..
you could get away with just fronts if you dont have a big boomin sub to drown them out..
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Thanks for all the replys guys, it helps a lot :D.
I have a normal 50Wx4 pioneer HU with line outputs.
The front speakers use the wire that came with them, 20-22 gauge, and they're mounted up by the windshield in the stock location.
The rears speakers have 18 gauge wire running 'em and are mounted in the rear shelves with no enclosure. I had to unsulate the speaker itself from the shelves to reduce the buzzing.
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for a mk2, or older, vw, you ned a sub if you want low frequencies.. theres just nowhere to fit decent bass producing speakers, unless you have a jetta..
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Ignore all the "peak" power ratings - usually they are with distortion levels that you can't listen to. The number you want is the RMS rating. There is enough of a difference in even how this number is achieved that you can't do direct comparisions, but at least the RMS number will be close and you can listen to it. The lower the THD (total harmonic distortion) number is, the better. Your head unit is underpowered, thus the distortion. Also, as mentioned the 150 watt number on your speakers is peak so doesn't mean much. Your amp should always provide more power than your speakers can handle, that way the distortion will be kept in check. Distortion destroys more speakers than high power (if it's clean).
Check into underseat subwoofers - they are available in both internally amplified or standard versions.
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i just spent $800 for complete stereo system and very satisfied , tried every single cheap options before to get this point :) What i learned is "u will get what u pay for" , and i am not that much reach to buy cheap stuff, my system is full infinity system with retrosound stereo and usb,iphone etc adapters everything.
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Ignore all the "peak" power ratings - usually they are with distortion levels that you can't listen to. The number you want is the RMS rating. There is enough of a difference in even how this number is achieved that you can't do direct comparisions, but at least the RMS number will be close and you can listen to it. The lower the THD (total harmonic distortion) number is, the better. Your head unit is underpowered, thus the distortion. Also, as mentioned the 150 watt number on your speakers is peak so doesn't mean much. Your amp should always provide more power than your speakers can handle, that way the distortion will be kept in check. Distortion destroys more speakers than high power (if it's clean).
Check into underseat subwoofers - they are available in both internally amplified or standard versions.
RMS is usually half, or less, of the peak power..
decks put out about 15-22 watts RMS, 50 peak..
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oooohhhh butt thumpers
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oooohhhh butt thumpers
theres not enough room under any seat in a rabbit to put bump under them..
they make thin subs, but there not going to fit in a space where you cant even fit an amp thats 2" tall..
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built one box fits the spare tire place and that would be perfect.
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built one box fits the spare tire place and that would be perfect.
i value my spare tire tho.. ive experimented with alternate uses of the spare tire well, i always end up throwing the good ol' spare tire back in there tho..
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Why do they distort so easy with so little power to them?
I always thought amps just make things louder but then I've been hearing that it increases sound quality AND can make it louder. Is this true?
There are a lot of responses here, but I don't think anyone has really answered this basic question.
What you are hearing is not speaker distortion itself, but distortion caused by the lack of power. The speakers are rated at 150 watts, so they are built to actually handle 150 watts. So, underpowering them with only "50 watts" (which has been explained here already) is causing the problem. The amplifier is not able to drive them efficiently enough to get volume out of them, but rather bottoms out before getting to that point.
There are more speakers blown because of too little power than too much. As I've said before, it's actually really hard to damage a speaker with too much power, but it's really easy to break them with too little. Amps have the horsepower to drive the speakers at a higher volume without stressing out and sending distorted audio to the speaker. That's why they sound both cleaner and louder.
Also, if you are going to install an amp, make sure you pay attention to the cooling it requires... If it has fins, make darn sure that they are open to air and not stuffed into some hideyhole, or you'll thermally damage the amp... they can get really hot, even when not running at high volume. Also, make sure you run enough power to the amp, no speaker wire power here. Easy to make fires with too much amperage on small power wire.
Just my $.02.
GL!
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Thanks for that, I think it was worth more than 2 cents :D.
Yeah I like to run good size wires for stuff like lights and all but sound systems have me beat. I guess 18g wire is probably too small for a 150w speaker if it's being maxed out then.
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I would think 16 would do well and 14 would be great.
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I would think 16 would do well and 14 would be great.
Yeah I shoulda got thicker wire but the price really jumps after a certain thickness plus you get less on a roll.
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There is no good reason to be cheap on wire, we are talking decent tunes here are we not? That and the heat thing. Ever run thin wire to a heavy load? Melty, Melty. Fire on the side.
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In my Caddy, I put a Blaupunkt powered sub-woofer behind the seats and then added high pass filters on the other speakers to filter out the lowest bass frequencies. Made a huge difference in sound quality.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-4orTQyccxD1/p_023THB200A/Blaupunkt-THb-200A.html
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/products/2007/023/h023THB200A-fp.jpg)
In my old '78 Rabbit, I cut some 6x9 speakers into the rear C-pillar sheet metal. After making he opening, I sealed off the top and bottom with fiberglass and body filler up and down as far as I could reach. Those sealed enclosures made for very nice sound quality as I recall.
Can you recommend some highpass filters? This is what I wanna do. A ten inch single speaker box or tube with a powered amp, and the highpass filters.
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In my Caddy, I put a Blaupunkt powered sub-woofer behind the seats and then added high pass filters on the other speakers to filter out the lowest bass frequencies. Made a huge difference in sound quality.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-4orTQyccxD1/p_023THB200A/Blaupunkt-THb-200A.html
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/products/2007/023/h023THB200A-fp.jpg)
In my old '78 Rabbit, I cut some 6x9 speakers into the rear C-pillar sheet metal. After making he opening, I sealed off the top and bottom with fiberglass and body filler up and down as far as I could reach. Those sealed enclosures made for very nice sound quality as I recall.
Can you recommend some highpass filters? This is what I wanna do. A ten inch single speaker box or tube with a powered amp, and the highpass filters.
most good decks have high pass filters built in..
all good amps have high pass filters..
my Zapco AG650 has a LOAD of different filters on it.. and you can run a whole stereo off that one amp (6 channel) but its also as wide as a VW..
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Good call ROR. I found a Kicker 10, JL Audio e1400D and wiring kit on craigslist for 130. As soon as I hooked up the preouts on the Blaupunkt it recognized it and kicked on the highpass. This little setup hits hard. Had to dial it back a bit. Dont need a ton of bass for DMB. :P
So the system components are:
Blaupunkt head unit - ebay - 85.00
Boston Accoustics 4's in the doors - craigslist 20.00
Polk Audio 5.25s in the rear deck - new retail best buy 80.00
Kicker 10" in factory ported enclosure - craigslist - 65.00
JL Audio e1400D - craigslist 65.00
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Good call ROR. I found a Kicker 10, JL Audio e1400D and wiring kit on craigslist for 130. As soon as I hooked up the preouts on the Blaupunkt it recognized it and kicked on the highpass. This little setup hits hard. Had to dial it back a bit. Dont need a ton of bass for DMB. :P
So the system components are:
Blaupunkt head unit - ebay - 85.00
Boston Accoustics 4's in the doors - craigslist 20.00
Polk Audio 5.25s in the rear deck - new retail best buy 80.00
Kicker 10" in factory ported enclosure - craigslist - 65.00
JL Audio e1400D - craigslist 65.00
my 400 dollar kenwood excelon head unit doesnt self sense the amp outputs pass frequency, so i doubt yours does. i imagine you need to read the book and figure out how to set it, or if it has one. im betting it doesnt have one.
the amp has a low pass filter built in tho, so thats why it worked.. im sure whoever had it before you had it set up to drive a sub, so it was set for low pass..
highpass = only high frequencies pass
lowpass = only low frequencies pass
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Can you recommend some highpass filters? This is what I wanna do. A ten inch single speaker box or tube with a powered amp, and the highpass filters.
I just used a passive L/C filter in front of the smaller speakers, set to a higher frequency than the subwoofer. I did something like 1000 Hz on the small 3.5" dash speakers and something like a few hundred Hz on the 5.25" speakers I have in the door panels up front. I recall looking up the specs on the speakers I was using (JBLs) and then picking out the L and C values from the tables on the page below:
- http://www.car-fi.com/techcenter/xovers.htm
I built the filters so I could plug them into the speaker terminals and hook the feed wires up to them to make it easy to install/modify/remove in the future.
I am driving the 2 pair of regular speakers out of the head unit built-in amp. It likely has some sort of built-in filtering, but I think it was at too low a freq. for the speakers I had. Adding the high pass filters at the smaller speakers cut out the distortion I got with heavy bass and then let the sub fill that back in. I also added some foam baffles behind the door panel speakers and that helped cut down the rattling in the door.
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Good call ROR. I found a Kicker 10, JL Audio e1400D and wiring kit on craigslist for 130. As soon as I hooked up the preouts on the Blaupunkt it recognized it and kicked on the highpass. This little setup hits hard. Had to dial it back a bit. Dont need a ton of bass for DMB. :P
So the system components are:
Blaupunkt head unit - ebay - 85.00
Boston Accoustics 4's in the doors - craigslist 20.00
Polk Audio 5.25s in the rear deck - new retail best buy 80.00
Kicker 10" in factory ported enclosure - craigslist - 65.00
JL Audio e1400D - craigslist 65.00
my 400 dollar kenwood excelon head unit doesnt self sense the amp outputs pass frequency, so i doubt yours does. i imagine you need to read the book and figure out how to set it, or if it has one. im betting it doesnt have one.
the amp has a low pass filter built in tho, so thats why it worked.. im sure whoever had it before you had it set up to drive a sub, so it was set for low pass..
highpass = only high frequencies pass
lowpass = only low frequencies pass
It had to of done something because the level at which the cabin speakers distorted before the sub was installed, is much higher. The knob goes to 64 or something weird like that. The cabin speakers would start distorting at around 40. Now its up to 55.
It sounds great and I don't think I need the high pass filters. Im not entering competitions or tryin to impress anyone, just wanted to correct a deficiency in the oem speaker setup.
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as mentioned earlier, you may have a problem with the speakers requireing too much power to get them going, when buying speakers, a good spec to look at is sensitivity, the higher the number, the less power required to get them going. ie: a 100w rms capable speaker with 92 db senstivity will sound ok if you throw 30w at it but a 100w rms speaker with 87db sensitivity needs at least 60w rms input to sound right. as mentioned your head unit puts out around 15 rms when cold and gets worse when hot.
some will argue here, but I have 15 years experience biulding and selling high end systems so I know what works, so here goes... there is no need to go more than 18 ga wire to the speakers, unless you go much more than 100w rms per channel. you will get some loss compared to 16 or 14 ga but not enough to warrant the cost difference.
generally, ambient sound speakers don't require tons of power and are not designed to reproduce sound below 150 hz ( that's where a sub-woofer would step in ) so again the loss is minimal. for a sub-woofer I do recomend the bigger wire ( I run 10ga to my sub ) because of the higher level of current flowing through the wire.
now on to the catergory of sub placement. the spare tire hole is not the best place for a sub as you can easily damage it by tossing stuff in the trunk, it's very vulnerable sitting there in the middle of the floor! a good spot that uses otherwise lost space is in the fender well, between the strut tower and trunk wall. you will have to fabricate a fiberglass box to fit in there but it is well worth the extra trunk space.
otherwise a 8" self amplified bass cannon doesen't take up too much space and woks well to define sound. ( add bass! ) then you can reduce the amout of bass frequencies sent to the small ambient speakers and get a better all around sound quality.
hope this helps!
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as mentioned earlier, you may have a problem with the speakers requireing too much power to get them going, when buying speakers, a good spec to look at is sensitivity, the higher the number, the less power required to get them going. ie: a 100w rms capable speaker with 92 db senstivity will sound ok if you throw 30w at it but a 100w rms speaker with 87db sensitivity needs at least 60w rms input to sound right. as mentioned your head unit puts out around 15 rms when cold and gets worse when hot.
some will argue here, but I have 15 years experience biulding and selling high end systems so I know what works, so here goes... there is no need to go more than 18 ga wire to the speakers, unless you go much more than 100w rms per channel. you will get some loss compared to 16 or 14 ga but not enough to warrant the cost difference.
generally, ambient sound speakers don't require tons of power and are not designed to reproduce sound below 150 hz ( that's where a sub-woofer would step in ) so again the loss is minimal. for a sub-woofer I do recomend the bigger wire ( I run 10ga to my sub ) because of the higher level of current flowing through the wire.
now on to the catergory of sub placement. the spare tire hole is not the best place for a sub as you can easily damage it by tossing stuff in the trunk, it's very vulnerable sitting there in the middle of the floor! a good spot that uses otherwise lost space is in the fender well, between the strut tower and trunk wall. you will have to fabricate a fiberglass box to fit in there but it is well worth the extra trunk space.
otherwise a 8" self amplified bass cannon doesen't take up too much space and woks well to define sound. ( add bass! ) then you can reduce the amout of bass frequencies sent to the small ambient speakers and get a better all around sound quality.
hope this helps!
yes, small speakers do not require the power that a sub, or a GOOD SET of component speakers might need..
and yes, run very efficient speakers if you are only using deck power.. if you got an amp for the speakers, its not going to care if they are as efficient..
i am running small, relatively efficient speakers in my GTI, on deck power, and they do not distort. but then again, high pass filters are set, and the equalizer is set pretty tame on the low end to keep only highs going to the fronts. and thats why they dont distort, because they are efficient enough to use the power i give them, and im not sending the wrong frequencies..
imho, its completely pointless to send any frequencies lower than about 200 hz to anything under a 6x9, or a component system..
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there is no need to go more than 18 ga wire to the speakers, unless you go much more than 100w rms per channel.
Agree 100%. The audio path is an A/C electrical path, at a very low amperage, so does not require all that much circular mills to cover the need of a low power amplifier.
now on to the catergory of sub placement. the spare tire hole is not the best place for a sub as you can easily damage it by tossing stuff in the trunk, it's very vulnerable sitting there in the middle of the floor!
I've seen this firsthand. Horrible thing to do to a speaker.
a good spot that uses otherwise lost space is in the fender well, between the strut tower and trunk wall. you will have to fabricate a fiberglass box to fit in there but it is well worth the extra trunk space.
...though this takes a little more ingenuity and skill to do.
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as mentioned earlier, you may have a problem with the speakers requireing too much power to get them going, when buying speakers, a good spec to look at is sensitivity, the higher the number, the less power required to get them going. ie: a 100w rms capable speaker with 92 db senstivity will sound ok if you throw 30w at it but a 100w rms speaker with 87db sensitivity needs at least 60w rms input to sound right. as mentioned your head unit puts out around 15 rms when cold and gets worse when hot.
some will argue here, but I have 15 years experience biulding and selling high end systems so I know what works, so here goes... there is no need to go more than 18 ga wire to the speakers, unless you go much more than 100w rms per channel. you will get some loss compared to 16 or 14 ga but not enough to warrant the cost difference.
generally, ambient sound speakers don't require tons of power and are not designed to reproduce sound below 150 hz ( that's where a sub-woofer would step in ) so again the loss is minimal. for a sub-woofer I do recomend the bigger wire ( I run 10ga to my sub ) because of the higher level of current flowing through the wire.
now on to the catergory of sub placement. the spare tire hole is not the best place for a sub as you can easily damage it by tossing stuff in the trunk, it's very vulnerable sitting there in the middle of the floor! a good spot that uses otherwise lost space is in the fender well, between the strut tower and trunk wall. you will have to fabricate a fiberglass box to fit in there but it is well worth the extra trunk space.
otherwise a 8" self amplified bass cannon doesen't take up too much space and woks well to define sound. ( add bass! ) then you can reduce the amout of bass frequencies sent to the small ambient speakers and get a better all around sound quality.
hope this helps!
yes, small speakers do not require the power that a sub, or a GOOD SET of component speakers might need..
and yes, run very efficient speakers if you are only using deck power.. if you got an amp for the speakers, its not going to care if they are as efficient..
i am running small, relatively efficient speakers in my GTI, on deck power, and they do not distort. but then again, high pass filters are set, and the equalizer is set pretty tame on the low end to keep only highs going to the fronts. and thats why they dont distort, because they are efficient enough to use the power i give them, and im not sending the wrong frequencies..
imho, its completely pointless to send any frequencies lower than about 200 hz to anything under a 6x9, or a component system..
You want speakers upfront that'll play happy down to 140Hz, atleast. Above 140Hz, sound becomes directional. That's fine and all for a proper L/R-F/B setup, but you don't want to hear that the subs in the far back (delay and all.) This will lead to more booming and less definition.
18gauge or below for cars. You don't run a wire long enough in a car to need bigger wire, unless it's DC (all audio amps output operate on AC!) Voltage drop will occur (think breathing through a straw) in long cable runs (25ft+)
Sensitivity is the spec you want to look at. no point in throwing 1000watts into a speaker thats 85db/watt rated. It takes ten times the power in watts to create a measly 3db, people! jumping from 1watt to 100 watts will get you three db, now that speaker's up to 88db. to get to 91db, you'd need all of the 1000watts of power, and 91 db ain't nothing for output!
I'm personally a fan of folded horns. Lower THD, more sensitivity. Accurate bass. I plan on building a couple more of these: http://billfitzmaurice.net/autotuba.html for my rabbit. A single tang band 8 may not look impressive, but with <200watts RMS powering it, it gets loud and sound great.
A pro sound guy's .02