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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rodpaslow on July 21, 2011, 09:37:31 pm
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I finally spent a week of my holidays installing my vnt 15 and I have a couple questions. I will try an get some pics soon possibly to help.
I broke my vacuum controller that came with the turbo, so I have a t3 boost can in conjunction with a cable to control the vanes. The cable is pulled by the throttle cable via a spring - I may not have things tuned 100% just yet.
1. I thought I understood how to make a manual boost controller - is this right?
I had connected 1/4" inch hose from the intake to the boost can. then I cut this and put a t connector in with a valve I can use to bleed off air in this hose that goes to the boost can. Is this correct?
2. With the valve closed, the vnt seems like it will start boosting under load very quickly up to about 10 psi and drop off a second or two later right back down to 0, and if I shift and almost floor it again, it will come up very quickly again to 10-15 psi, and drop off etc.. until gear five. Do I need more fueling as when the boost comes up, there is no black out the back until the boost controller kicks in. ( I can tell as the sound of the exhaust changes to something that sounds more like a gasser).
Any help appreciated. Thanks
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Was this install on a a2? If so howd you get over the motor mount situation?.
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No it was an A3 install, but the same situation exists with A3. I ended up buying a motor mount that works off here (vendors section), but for me, the hole for the mount was a bit off (3/4") and just had to drill one extra hole.
Biggest thing for the install is tuning the vane control. I just want to know if I have things correct for the boost can control??
The longest/hardest thing for the install for me was the downpipe. I just bought some stainless mandrel bent tubing, but the time to get it correct to the rest of the exhaust was the hardest for me. The oil lines are easy to attach, just for the drain remove the once cv shaft, makes things easier to get at.
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:( I did some work on the weekend and found on my vnt 15, the closer the control is to the ground the higher the boost. So I have my control backwards and will have to add a pivot and a linkage to reverse the way I currently have it. I've read over fspGTD in FAQ and libbybapa's install, but his control seems backwards to mine. If you want full boost at full throttle, the control on mine needs to be down as far as possible when installed.
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:( I did some work on the weekend and found on my vnt 15, the closer the control is to the ground the higher the boost. So I have my control backwards and will have to add a pivot and a linkage to reverse the way I currently have it. I've read over fspGTD in FAQ and libbybapa's install, but his control seems backwards to mine. If you want full boost at full throttle, the control on mine needs to be down as far as possible when installed.
on a VNT15, lever down blows head gaskets, and lever up makes you go fast.. lol.
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ROR yours must be stuck mid way or something. I've got a relatively new motor, less than 15k miles and with the VNT engine revs at 3000 lever set for low boost, I don't get much of anything showing till 3400 revs and over. I wanted a VNT for boost below 3000 revs and just a test it starts at about 1500 an builds from there is the lever is set for high boost / all way down.
I have a cable linked to the throttle and in line with this is a boost can. I haven't got it 100% tuned yet, but my preference would be to see 5-10 psi cruise and 20-25 psi under full throttle. I think this will be easily acheiveable as this is so much better than the T3 that was in the car before.
I don't doubt that the lever set to high boost and no boost control would easily blow a head gasket on a 1.6TD.
What I still don't know is if I have my boost controller set correctly and installed correctly. How you have it installed would help. Until I know that I can control the boost with the right foot.
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no, my vanes are as open as they will go, i took the turbo apart and manually opened every one of them.. had to do it manually, there all coked up and wont hardly turn..
like, my vanes all point directly at the turbine wheel, all perpendicular to it. there open..
when there closed, the turbo makes about 40 psi barely off an idle :o
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ROR - what do get for boost running at 3000 or so revs and putting the go pedal to the floor? Now I'm a bit worried I will have too much - 40 psi is waaaay too much.
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Hey rod what did you pay for your motor mount? I sent you a pm but I didn't hear back
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wdkinery - my appologies for not getting back to you. I think I bought it in the vendor section from shortsclimbin for $160 plus shipping. It fit the block well, but for my MK3 I had to re-drill the hole that bolts to the motor mount itself - it was off about 1" from where it needed to be for my car.
I just finished adjusting my setup - I will try and post some pictures tomorrow. I was able to adjust the cable so I roughly get what I wanted 2-4 psi at a cruise speed and at 3/4 to full throttle it climbs really fast to about 24 psi before the boost can cuts in and moves the vane control back to open and stays at 24 psi until I let off. The setup I have uses a simple link to the injector pump with a slot so you can adjust the radius that cable is pulled from. Another longer link connects to the pull end of the cable. This runs to the other end of the cable that has a holder that I attached to the EGR mount. (of course no egr is used so it's just a block off plate) The cable itself runs through this holder and attaches to a boost can and it's attached to another link. There's a pivot mounted on the turbo. The link pivots in the center as the throttle is pulled it moves the vane control towards the bottom of the car, thus increasing boost. This VNT is awesome! It roughly starts boosting at 1500 rpm and will hit max 24 psi in a matter of seconds. Otherwise boost can be controlled simply by the movement of the go pedal. The car is alot more driveable.
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I did have one problem as my old t3 never hit 24 psi at full boost, it pushed out my dipstick and some oil all over the place. I put a clamp on it for the time being to hold it in place. When I did the motor, I couldn't get a diesel dipstick and tube. I have a gasser one. If I simply get an o-ring for the dipstick, will this be sufficient enough to hold it in place?
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Sounds like there is enough block pressure to blow some seals out.
I think the I-shaft seal usually gets pushed out first so look for an oil hemorage there.
Vent the block, at the block off plate by the oil filter mount.
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I thought I'd try and get some pictures in.
http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/?action=view¤t=3897115137_330.jpg (ftp://http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/?action=view¤t=3897115137_330.jpg)
More to come.
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try againhttp://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/?action=view¤t=3897115137_330.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/?action=view¤t=3897115137_330.jpg)
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More pictures....(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/3897113473_330.jpg)
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(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/3897114369_330.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/3897112321_330.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/3897110657_330.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/3897115137_330.jpg)
I need to get pictures from the bottom to see the actual connection to the turbo. I'll post that soon.
My oil out of the dipstick shouldn't have been an issue as I have the pcv can on the valve cover running back to the intake side of the turbo which is low pressure. I need to investigate some more on this...
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ROR - what do get for boost running at 3000 or so revs and putting the go pedal to the floor? Now I'm a bit worried I will have too much - 40 psi is waaaay too much.
if im running 3k revs, and i floor it, i get full boost.. fairly instantly.
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since you have the setup iniatially not working well may i ask some questions?
i have a 1.9d with a gt2052,using only a T2 wastegate that limits the boost to around 1/1.1bar
when driving at partial throtle and keeping the go pedal on the same position i noticed that the car will go faster after WG opens(with the correspondent exhaust note ;D).
do you have the same problem?
my car is very quiet at idle and up before WG opens,is yours the same?
or is WG open at idle(no accelerator to pull the vanes close) and the car loud?
if you could describe your driving experience i will be apreciatted,really need to sort my vnt control and with vacacions that would be a good time to do it.
i have a passat 35i,and the WG can almost touches firewall so is hard for me to do a full makeover to what is already done(not by me)
(http://i.imagehost.org/0802/DSC02583.jpg)
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Initially with the VNT, I had the vane control (it's not a wastegate on the VNT) opposite to what it was supposed to be. When accelerating instead of closing the vanes I was opening them as I stepped on the go pedal further. What you described is what was happening. It seemed like at a certain point the boost can would close the vanes slightly and I would get better acceleration. I just had to add a pivot point to reverse the action of the lever. With your limited space I don't know how you can do that.
I would first try and disconnect the wastegate (air line to the wastegate) and see what it does. If it's better there may be some problem with the wastegate. I don't have much experience with wastegates - others may be able to help more...
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for what i understand(were set by the mechanc that installed the turbo) the vanes are set to boost at idle because the car is very silent.
when boost hits 1 bar the can pushes down the vanes lever.loud exhaust(63mm stainless)and boost stops climbing.
and only at that time i feel the power,is like almost the kick that the k24 used to give me when it spooled and hit high boost)
what i would want was a silent car at idle and around town but when cruising i didnt have to floor it to feel the power(and noise lol)
i am in part happy because the car is silent and in race mode is quick,but there is no middle term...
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ROR yours must be stuck mid way or something. I've got a relatively new motor, less than 15k miles and with the VNT engine revs at 3000 lever set for low boost, I don't get much of anything showing till 3400 revs and over. I wanted a VNT for boost below 3000 revs and just a test it starts at about 1500 an builds from there is the lever is set for high boost / all way down.
rodpaslow that sounds just like what my VNT was doing, very little boost unless I set the vanes about halfway then I could do about 13psi while blowing large black clouds out the tailpipe and 1300+ egt. I never got it figured out :(.
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Yes that's about how my vnt reacts too if the vanes are about 1/2 way to all way open. My control uses a spring and weight of the can and assembly to use the control to open the vanes all the way at idle.(spring pulls the vnt link to open - towards the hood of the car) Off idle my cable control closes the vanes to full closed by full throttle. If the vanes are half open to open it pukes black smoke like you wouldn't beleive if I disconnect the cable control. As soon as you step on it with the control connected it clears up any smoke and I've turned fuelling up about 1/2 turn and still no black smoke. I could go more but it pulls hard now right up to about 22 psi. And it reacts very quickly. By 1500 rpm it's a 16 psi if I'm at full throttle.
My vnt is very noticeable at idle. It has a significantly louder wine than the t3 had. The t3 you couldn't hear till about 2500 rpm when it started spooling. The vanes are open at idle on my car so I would think they are closed on your if its quiet.
To test it, I would disconnect the boost can that I can see in the picture. just hold it one way with a spring or something like that and take it for a test drive. It's fairly easy to control boost by your go pedal. I live where there's no hills or mountains and I can drive it without boost if I like. Just be carefull because if the vanes are closed it will jump up quite quick.
One way or the other (move the spring to hold it in one direction then the other) should produce boost. I'd suggest having a boost gauge to make sure of this. Hope this helps...
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i know mines are on boost position on idle because the car is very silent.
on your setup wouldnt you have the same problem at transition between max pressure and not?
when cruising at higher speeds,if you dont hit max boost but still need half throtle to mantain speed,wont the vanes be closed trying to build boost?
that in higher speeds is bad right?
saying that because my passat heats more cruising at 120km/h(vnt silent and trying to build boost) than on faster travel speeds(driving at 180km/h its more stable,has more power,but is louder-vanes not restricting flow)
what i would want is that power but without the noise in smaller speeds around town,dont want to catch cops attention...
so how you have your vanes setup open?by adjusting the vanes lever in relation to boost can?
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the current way I have mine set is at 75 mph (120 kph) I have about 5 lbs of boost. If i want to accelerate and get more boost all I need to do is step on it. Boost can only cuts in when it hits about 20 psi and then extends the cable (essentially) and opens the vanes more.
If I hold it to full throttle turbo will build max boost to about 20 psi and vanes will be open due to boost can being on full, restricting boost.
If crusing, at speed and it's not at max boost, but still need half throttle, vanes are approximately half open still providing some boost, something like 5 lbs or so. Until I move pedal further to full throttle. as I move it further I get more boost. AT 180 kph I'd bet I'd be at max boost 20 psi at all times. If I drove at that speed I would need to adjust the cable & boost can so I got less boost (open vanes more); and so vanes would open later. Thats the nice thing about having adjustable - the boost can itself has alot of threads and the cable has a bit of ajustability at the pump connection (adjusts cable length).
Vanes open at idle, closed by cable movement made by throttle until floored. As soon as roughly 20 psi is hit, boost can opens them (the vanes) to maintain a steady 20 psi or until I back off the throttle. I can also control boost by throttle position; by doing so I'm also controlling vane position. My boost can only controls max boost and only vane position at max boost. The cable connected to the throttle does the rest.
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i know mines are on boost position on idle because the car is very silent.
on your setup wouldnt you have the same problem at transition between max pressure and not?
when cruising at higher speeds,if you dont hit max boost but still need half throtle to mantain speed,wont the vanes be closed trying to build boost?
that in higher speeds is bad right?
saying that because my passat heats more cruising at 120km/h(vnt silent and trying to build boost) than on faster travel speeds(driving at 180km/h its more stable,has more power,but is louder-vanes not restricting flow)
what i would want is that power but without the noise in smaller speeds around town,dont want to catch cops attention...
so how you have your vanes setup open?by adjusting the vanes lever in relation to boost can?
a VNT does not have a wastegate. they dont sound any different when the vanes open. they do SCREAM compared to a conventional turbo tho..
you dont have a VNT if you have a wastegate..
idk why all you guys have such problems with your turbos, mines got the vanes all the way open, and it spools great, and makes my car a rocket.
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Mine was quiet with the vanes shut at idle, barely any exhaust noise. With the vanes full open at idle it was only a little louder and sounded really nice driving, it wasn't nearly too loud to drive. Any position gave a real nice whistle at idle.
I pulled the turbo off last summer and was planning to get it rebuilt and reinstall it but now I'm thinkin' it was something else making it not act like libbybapa's and ROR's and a lot of other peoples.
Has your fuel economy changed since the install?
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i know mines are on boost position on idle because the car is very silent.
on your setup wouldnt you have the same problem at transition between max pressure and not?
when cruising at higher speeds,if you dont hit max boost but still need half throtle to mantain speed,wont the vanes be closed trying to build boost?
that in higher speeds is bad right?
saying that because my passat heats more cruising at 120km/h(vnt silent and trying to build boost) than on faster travel speeds(driving at 180km/h its more stable,has more power,but is louder-vanes not restricting flow)
what i would want is that power but without the noise in smaller speeds around town,dont want to catch cops attention...
so how you have your vanes setup open?by adjusting the vanes lever in relation to boost can?
a VNT does not have a wastegate. they dont sound any different when the vanes open. they do SCREAM compared to a conventional turbo tho..
you dont have a VNT if you have a wastegate..
idk why all you guys have such problems with your turbos, mines got the vanes all the way open, and it spools great, and makes my car a rocket.
sorry,i said wastegate because the can that control the vnt was a wastegate from a T2.
and sorry but it sounds diferent,veryyy diferent.
alot louder.
i have full 63mm stainless steel exhaust from turbo and at idle with vanes closed the car is quieter that a stock one.as soon as max boost is achieved it sounds way louder,like a K24 sounds.
http://www.youtube.com/user/carrizog60#p/u/1/FiQvU6AQRXE (http://www.youtube.com/user/carrizog60#p/u/1/FiQvU6AQRXE)
i dont have a lightweight car,is a passat wagon,with widened steelies,tdi longer gearbox ratios and that hurts performance.
also a vnt15 spools alot quiker than a gt2052v,with the vanes fully open will be almost a wastegated turbo loke k24...
rodpaslow,how much travel is needed to operate the vanes from stop to stop?wont the spring in the accelerator extend when working or is the vanes easy and light to move?
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Mine was quiet with the vanes shut at idle, barely any exhaust noise. With the vanes full open at idle it was only a little louder and sounded really nice driving, it wasn't nearly too loud to drive. Any position gave a real nice whistle at idle.
I pulled the turbo off last summer and was planning to get it rebuilt and reinstall it but now I'm thinkin' it was something else making it not act like libbybapa's and ROR's and a lot of other peoples.
Has your fuel economy changed since the install?
yea, my economy went down, from using the boost soo much ;D
that aside tho, im sure i could easily get 500 miles a tank if i stayed out of the boost.. my car does really good on fuel actually. it gets almost 2x the mileage of my gasser.
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yea, my economy went down, from using the boost soo much ;D
Your economy went down from pushing the pedal more than needed, boost helps efficiency.
that aside tho, im sure i could easily get 500 miles a tank if i stayed out of the boost.. my car does really good on fuel actually. it gets almost 2x the mileage of my gasser.
500mi on 40L should be easily doable even cruising at 12-13psi.. As I achieved the same mileage on a tdi with the tiny k03 running at max boost pressure for the entire trip. Are you telling me you got only 20ish mpg out of your gasser? I've seen 28-29mpg from a 3spd auto at 4000+ rpms.
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yea, my economy went down, from using the boost soo much ;D
Your economy went down from pushing the pedal more than needed, boost helps efficiency.
that aside tho, im sure i could easily get 500 miles a tank if i stayed out of the boost.. my car does really good on fuel actually. it gets almost 2x the mileage of my gasser.
500mi on 40L should be easily doable even cruising at 12-13psi.. As I achieved the same mileage on a tdi with the tiny k03 running at max boost pressure for the entire trip. Are you telling me you got only 20ish mpg out of your gasser? I've seen 28-29mpg from a 3spd auto at 4000+ rpms.
ok, well my economy went down from over-use of boost, if you want to get super technical. stock diesels are weak. there is no reason to drive them agressively. my TD is not weak, and i love to hear the turbo, chirp the tires, and feel the acceleration..
THAT is why it only gets about 40 mpg.
and yea dude.. i only get 27 mpg in my gasser around here (stock 1.8, ACN trans w/ REALLY long gears. again, i drive with my foot closer to the floor than most. and there is not one straight piece of road around where i live. it is impossible to get optimal mileage in any vehicle around here.. environment plays a big role.. on the freeway, my gasser gets almost 35 mpg.
and i said it ALMOST gets 2x the mileage of the gasser.. i bet my diesel would get 50+ mpg if i could actually check mileage for a tank.. ive never even been able to accurately check the economy, the odometer is F'd
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Carrizog, at present the vanes in my VNT are easy to move. Okay now I understand. Yes my wastegate/boost can is from a T3 where yours is from a T2. When boosting on the gas hard(I have a open style muffler) the exhaust does get louder, but by no means loud. I have 2.5 inch exhaust from the turbo back.
I have a couple linkages that operate the VNT control and you could make it more or less movement depending on what you want. With my linkage I wanted it to be about the same movement that the control needs so maybe 5/8" or 3/4" (13 to 20mm) or about how much the linkage on the turbo moves. I tried to keep it 1:1. I have lots of movement on the boost can and the cable also has adjustment for length. Attached to the pump I have a plate bolted onto the throttle part that has a slot in it, so I can move the arc that pulls the cable either longer or shorter.
I'd say economy suffers in my case too as once you have a vnt its hard to stay off the boost. it's awesome...pull.
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Carrizog, at present the vanes in my VNT are easy to move. Okay now I understand. Yes my wastegate/boost can is from a T3 where yours is from a T2. When boosting on the gas hard(I have a open style muffler) the exhaust does get louder, but by no means loud. I have 2.5 inch exhaust from the turbo back.
I have a couple linkages that operate the VNT control and you could make it more or less movement depending on what you want. With my linkage I wanted it to be about the same movement that the control needs so maybe 5/8" or 3/4" (13 to 20mm) or about how much the linkage on the turbo moves. I tried to keep it 1:1. I have lots of movement on the boost can and the cable also has adjustment for length. Attached to the pump I have a plate bolted onto the throttle part that has a slot in it, so I can move the arc that pulls the cable either longer or shorter.
I'd say economy suffers in my case too as once you have a vnt its hard to stay off the boost. it's awesome...pull.
the mileage decrease is from the user, not the turbo 8)
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I was just trying to change my vacuum can to a boost can that came with the VNT.(my t2 can doesn't move enough, have enough travel) I have a control linked to the throttle and am having much trouble sealing my vacuum can to add to this linkage.
I got thinking - why do I need a boost can in line with the throttle linkage. I know I've seen this setup on here. If you have a direct linkage without a boost can, simply set the linkage to what you want for boost at full throttle. The boost can will only back off the boost once you hit a certain point and will be very linear at doing that. It won't back off boost pressure just at max boost, it will back off boost pressure very linear to what you adding with your foot/accelerator pedal. With a direct linkage, which is almost what I have now, boost will be linear to throttle position. (t2 can only moves like .02")
I live on the prairies, flat area; I see no need for a boost can. I'm going to try a direct linkage and see how it works. Just thought I'd add this...
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I was just trying to change my vacuum can to a boost can that came with the VNT.(my t2 can doesn't move enough, have enough travel) I have a control linked to the throttle and am having much trouble sealing my vacuum can to add to this linkage.
I got thinking - why do I need a boost can in line with the throttle linkage. I know I've seen this setup on here. If you have a direct linkage without a boost can, simply set the linkage to what you want for boost at full throttle. The boost can will only back off the boost once you hit a certain point and will be very linear at doing that. It won't back off boost pressure just at max boost, it will back off boost pressure very linear to what you adding with your foot/accelerator pedal. With a direct linkage, which is almost what I have now, boost will be linear to throttle position. (t2 can only moves like .02")
I live on the prairies, flat area; I see no need for a boost can. I'm going to try a direct linkage and see how it works. Just thought I'd add this...
because sometimes we have friends/families who need to borrow our vehicles, and they do not understand : keep an eye on the boost/egt gauges. lol
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very true!!
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I put a knob on my dash so I could open/close the vanes,.. the the boost still backing them off as it moves upward.
With 2.5" exhaust and a muffler; it is alot louder with the vanes open at idle.
One of the main reasons I tied the vanes closed, on the last controller.
Instead of having the accelerator open the vanes at idle.
A friend with a 2 1/4" TT exhaust with borla has no problem with the noise off boost.
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here is a free fully programmable open source VNT, or VNT+LDA controller. the source code is free, and the microcontroller is ~$35.
source code:
http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/
open source microcontroller:
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardUno
;)
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here is a free fully programmable open source VNT, or VNT+LDA controller. the source code is free, and the microcontroller is ~$35.
source code:
http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/
open source microcontroller:
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardUno
;)
That is seriously cool. If I ever do a new engine for Jezzie, I'm probably going to go the mTDI route, but I'd totally go for an electronic VNT/LDA controller!! Frankenengine indeed...
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I got thinking - why do I need a boost can in line with the throttle linkage. I know I've seen this setup on here. If you have a direct linkage without a boost can, simply set the linkage to what you want for boost at full throttle. The boost can will only back off the boost once you hit a certain point and will be very linear at doing that.
Yeah, the pressure can actuator is a failsafe to prevent overboost, automatically backs the vanes off at a preset boost level... If you are conscious of boost & EGT you can simply use the pedal to regulate it, or alternately, install a blow-off valve to vent excessive, unsafe boost levels.
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I've simply removed the can and installed a threaded rod to replace it so I have lots of adjustability. So Far I've got it set to a max of 20 psi on boost and under hard acceleration that's just where it stays. no problems overshooting at all.