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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on July 20, 2011, 09:59:41 pm
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Ok so I just want to throw this out there. I have at my disposal some goodies, I want to combine these goodies to make a fun little motor!
What I have here is:
- Complete AHU TDi turbo setup ie. exhaust mani/low mounted k03 turbo (makes gasser intakes possible), intake, rubber turbo intake, IC piping and intercooler
- Hydro 1.6 N/A
- 1.6 TD Injection Pump, resealed recently. Currently on my n/a and running great.
- I have the tdi pump as well, so I have a 10mm head if desired
- I also have a 1.9 AAZ head at my disposal but it is a bit rough and will need to be checked out first.. it has some head erosion due to a leaky injector is all..
So I figure to make it all work i'd need at the least:
- intake and exhaust gasket
- exhaust studs and hardware
- turbo feed and oil lines
- Exhaust..? I'd only be running a down-pipe.. so 14" pointed directly at the ground
- head-gasket and new bolts.. won't go studs as i am not going over 17psi
- TD injectors.. can TD nozzles be put on N/A injectors and work?
If anything i'd cancel out the 1.9 head and just run it all on the 1.6 motor.. and run a calm cool and collected 15psi of inter-cooled boost with moderate fueling to match.
What im aiming for ultimately with this setup, minus the 1.9 head realistically because i think its trashed.. would be lower end power.. my torque at 18-1900 instead of 25-2600 eh?
Do you think it will be possible? I was talking to a friend about it, and we think that because the tdi flows less energy out the tailpipe this turbo might feel extra small on the 1.6 idi.. what do you think?
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i believe vdubspeed is running that same turbo and he really likes it, i think its a good match. .3L less displacement more than equals out a tdi being more thermally effecient, i don't think this turbo will seem at all smaller on a 1.6 vs tdi. and for the aaz head on it, i think the lower compression will help to make slightly more peak power over all due to less energy being used to compress air. i also think it would make power a lot sooner in the rpm range, how ever the size of those turbos will be the real limiting factor in power
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The rpm band on TDI I think shuts down sooner than our IDI's. I don't know but I am guessing we turn at least 1,000 more rpm. I do not know what it would do, but I say you have it try it. You may boost instantly and never twist that high, then it should be perfect for you.
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How ever the size of those turbos will be the real limiting factor in power
Stock tdi versus Malone stage 3. Stock turbo seems to be alright up to 134hp/235tq.. the next tune they require you upgrade to a VNT-17.
(http://malonetuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/90hp_tdi_stage3_dyno1.png)
ALSO, I have seen k03's handle 18psi reliably, i think 20+ they get inefficient.. so 15 intercooled should be perfect. When I had the tdi on the road this motor came from it would spin 5g's no problem ;) so the turbo can move the air for sure. I'm thinking running no exhaust, and shorter IC piping i might be able to pick up some efficiency on that little guy..
Will I need to get TD injectors? I already have the n/a injectors with a t/d pump.. it runs fine?
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I don't think you will have to have the TD injectors, many run without. You just might not need as much initial timing. Probably could time it to .95 or 1.00 instead of 1 to 1.05 since the injectors will advance it for you. Many claim that the higher opening of the injectors was to help it not slame the injectors shut and reopen, but I don't think anyone running n/a injectors in a TD has confirmed it.
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Stock tdi versus Malone stage 3. Stock turbo seems to be alright up to 134hp/235tq..
You forgot take into consideration the way lower efficiency of the IDI engine, somewhat 25-30% lower BSFC. Although it can handle a slightly lower AFR with the same smoke levels you're still down on total efficiency. 100hp at the crank would be the max of a puny little K03.
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100hp at the crank would be the max of a puny little K03.
Double the power increase!? More than I was asking for :D This isn't a power build. More so, I have these parts laying around and want something a little more fun than my n/a. If I can get above the 90hp of the tdi, and somewhere in its 150ft.lb range.. I'd be way more than contempt.
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15psi.. LOL... my toaster runs 15psi just cruzin at 75mph+.. at say speed limit and hill... it hits 15psi with little trying.. i have it set to about 21psi via internal boost controller.. egt is 850ish.. thats the little tdi ko3 turbo... 2.5" down pipe thru straight pipe..
to build a internal boost controller use/build up a air regulator for say air tools..
honestly... new factory strech bolts should yeald you over 20+psi substained boost too..
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15psi in a tdi is not the same as 15psi in a 1.6 tho either.
i didn't mean that the ko3 will be a bottle neck for u to make power, i was just saying that before you would need to put an aaz head on to make more power you would need a larger turbo. i think those are really an awesome turbo for a 1.6
is the difference is bsfc was so dramatic
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That is kind of what I was thinking ^. AAZ head won't be needed but if you have one why not. Same with the turbo. I think you may see boost just off idle. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. I wouldn't run it over 20psi as I thought that was around the limit for those guys even intercooled.
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That is exactly what I want, boost off idle.. Immediate spooling essentially ;)
As I said I do like %90 of my driving in town with the occasional highway drive (hwy being above 115km/h) maybe once a month if that.. So really I want power down low like the tdi's do, and they do this with the tiny ko3 or the vnt that can be small when it wants. So I am really set that 15psi intercooled with this ko3 will be all the power under 3000rpms I could ever need :)
Also, the tdi could sustain running at higher rpm's when I was really romping it.. Less air from this motor at similar rpms should be better off for it I'd think eh?
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honestly.. my 1.6ts in my wagon with stock turbo pulls 14psi before the sneeze valve in the intake opens.. i really think with tdi turbo stuff 18-21psi would be non issue with a 1.6.... yes instant boost and all.. but i really think you need to set up a boost controller inside.. as limiting to 15psi you will get a really odd surge at highway speeds.. from the wastegate opening/closing at that low a setting.. thats what i am saying..
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I'm not gonna lie I don't know how I'm gonna about setting the boost.. Definitely not the stock way though..
I'm not saying like 15 is as high as I'll run it, like the WG is gonna open and just stop boosting.. I mean like I see no need for higher than 15 psi.. 18-21psi from a T3 even, wouldn't be efficient and would just be wasting the energy on compressing air instead of combustion. Spikes of 21 would be acceptable, I know the turbo CAN handle it.. I just see no need..
ALSO lest we not forget this turbo has 418k kms on it ;)
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I'm not gonna lie I don't know how I'm gonna about setting the boost.. Definitely not the stock way though..
I'm not saying like 15 is as high as I'll run it, like the WG is gonna open and just stop boosting.. I mean like I see no need for higher than 15 psi.. 18-21psi from a T3 even, wouldn't be efficient and would just be wasting the energy on compressing air instead of combustion. Spikes of 21 would be acceptable, I know the turbo CAN handle it.. I just see no need..
ALSO lest we not forget this turbo has 418k kms on it ;)
since when is 18psi on a t3 inefficient??
I ran 20psi on a k14 for 10k miles and it always ran great with low egts, I added no wear to the turbo either. I had a k24 on it for a while at 25psi it would break the tires free in 3rd at 50mph ;D Unless you've run big boost on a big turbo, don't say it's not worth it. I dont thing chris is saying that you should run more than 15psi for powers sake, I think he is saying that if you set it at 15, the wastegate will be chasing it's self around and surging at highway cruising speed. k03s on tdis are almost always at 10-15psi at highway speed.
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Sorry let me rephrase. Any turbo running any higher boost then (the k03 is pretty useless above 18psi) it was originally designed to run at is inefficient. Not saying you still won't make good power, but your doing so less efficiently.
20 on a k14 and 25 on a k24 would suggest ~15 is pretty good for a k03 no?
Yes on a good day the ahu tdi's can achieve max boost at 14-15psi. Also another thought to take in to account is why don't the tunes for the k03 equipped tdi's have the boost any higher than 18 or so psi?
However I would set it up, I'd say 20 being max psi, and hopefully the same 15 cruising psi that a tdi can achieve.
Another thing is that I hope to offset energy losses by running a straight exhaust,( possibly ported) 1.7 gasser intake manifold, and short smallish IC piping to reduce any turbo lag as well ;) (like that's an issue with the k03 lol!)
Either way Nathan, csrmp5, Trev, Lucas thanks for all the insight and discussion, it makes everything picturable in my head lol. Plus, I just love to talk! Lmao.
:D
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tdi people say 18psi is what is ok to run with the k03, with out looking at the compressor map its hard to say, but u should be ok in that range, and especially ok if u plan on sticking to around 15. i think it really shows on the dyno above that in the higher rpms the k03 is a bit of choke and probably just blowing hot air with lots of back pressure trying to maintain full boost at in the higher flow rates
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OOh heres something else I have to bring up!
The car was a 1998 Jetta TDI, which SHOULD be a AHU with a k03.. however i recall the owners manual saying it was a 1z engine.. and then the po saying it was swapped? aghh.
SO NOW it could be either a k03 or a GT15.. the latter being worse off, 12psi stock and 15psi spikes. k03 being 13-14 stock and 18-19psi spikes.
This is from a thread from 2002 on these vs, the vnt15 and the gt15.
The K03 maxes out at around 0.17 kg/s (KKK's own numbers at the table you provided and from the map above). Multiply that by 60 seconds per minute = 10.2 kg per minute @ PR = 2, < 55% effciency, ~180k RPM.
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try a 2nd time.. 1st one somehow got deleted when some goofy search box opened up... >:(
nat is correct.. 15psi will give you a odd running issue.. i played with my boost controller on the way to mk1 madness.. lots of hills... big load in toaster so on..
at 15 you get a really odd flutter/surge.. enough to ask yourself whats wrong..
18-21 no surge..
1st night out with toaster i was pulling 28psi.. would rip tires free in 3rd so on.. really silly.. maxed out.. ot going to go anyfaster.. egts hit 1250 pretty quick..
on way to madness.. set at 18-21 pulling long hills.. it would hit 1250 by the top.. when ever i hit 1250 mid hill.. byy the top egt was still 1250ish.. but water temps would spike up to 100c and oil temps up to 110c.. i have a 80c thermostat in it.. usually runs 80c water and 90-95 on oil..
building a boost controller is SIMPLE...
how mine is set up...
fitting from manifold to fuel pump, this has a T in to go inside to my boost gauge.. 30 psi one.. i added a t before the boost gauge to goto a air regulator, kinda like ones they sell with paint guns for painting cars.. other side goes to wastegate..
start with full boost and under said full boost start to turn the boost down.. once you get to the max you want.. eliminate all boost and gofo full boost again (aka unbury foot then bury foot again).. if set right the wastegate will open at your magic number.. if too low.. go back up enough to acheve a number higher then the one you seek then work you way down again..
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You know, supposedly 1z motors have 1,mm smaller pump heads, (like you said) somewhat uncommon turbos, and several other things, but the few that I have worked on have all been 97 passat motors, and they were all pretty much exactly like an ahu, same pump head, same turbo ect, on cars I was fairly sure had not been monkeyed on before.
Anyways, vw had a hard on for the k03, they put it on late aaz, ahu, 1z, then they discovered vnts... but anyways, if you don't have a k03 i would consider your motor odd.
May not be true, just what I have found.
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Boost controller for sure, and when i get to it i will use that method :D
How can I identify whether or not it is an AHU or 1Z? And whether or not I have a k03 or a gt15...?
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once upon a time under rust and grime, there is an engine model stamped into the front of the engine block (oil filter side). it's above the oil filter housing area if memory serves, but it is no easy feat to make it out. rust rust rust. haha
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Ok so I just want to throw this out there. I have at my disposal some goodies, I want to combine these goodies to make a fun little motor!
What I have here is:
- Complete AHU TDi turbo setup ie. exhaust mani/low mounted k03 turbo (makes gasser intakes possible), intake, rubber turbo intake, IC piping and intercooler
- Hydro 1.6 N/A
- 1.6 TD Injection Pump, resealed recently. Currently on my n/a and running great.
- I have the tdi pump as well, so I have a 10mm head if desired
- I also have a 1.9 AAZ head at my disposal but it is a bit rough and will need to be checked out first.. it has some head erosion due to a leaky injector is all..
So I figure to make it all work i'd need at the least:
- intake and exhaust gasket
- exhaust studs and hardware
- turbo feed and oil lines
- Exhaust..? I'd only be running a down-pipe.. so 14" pointed directly at the ground
- head-gasket and new bolts.. won't go studs as i am not going over 17psi
- TD injectors.. can TD nozzles be put on N/A injectors and work?
If anything i'd cancel out the 1.9 head and just run it all on the 1.6 motor.. and run a calm cool and collected 15psi of inter-cooled boost with moderate fueling to match.
What im aiming for ultimately with this setup, minus the 1.9 head realistically because i think its trashed.. would be lower end power.. my torque at 18-1900 instead of 25-2600 eh?
Do you think it will be possible? I was talking to a friend about it, and we think that because the tdi flows less energy out the tailpipe this turbo might feel extra small on the 1.6 idi.. what do you think?
i dont think you will get all your torque down low like you wanted.. we have one inherent problem..
most all of us are running IDI diesels.. and by nature, they make less torque than their direct injected cousins..
the IDI power band is kinda like a cross between a TDI power band, and a gasser power band, thats the best way i can describe it..
the IDI is a cleaner burning design tho..
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Power band is going to be mostly determined by turbo, I don't think that injection method (idi/tdi) will have a DRAMATIC effect on power band, IE difference from gasser to diesel..
If you go big turbo, power will be 3krpms +
small turbo, like k03, torque will come on as early as possible.
My frankenmotor with a k14 made gobs of power below 2500, with a k24, it makes no power til 2500, but was 1.5x as strong in the higher rpms.
With a k03, I suspect you will have lots of low end torque. Think about it, if you put a big turbo on a tdi, power band becomes high, small turbo= power down low. so in that hypothetical experiment, power band is set by turbo, not injection method.
Not saying tdi/idi has no effect on power band, but I don't think it's much.
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Yeah K3vo, I don't think I agree with you on this one. The injection method and .3 less liters of displacement is all that is significantly different between the two setups. We already know that DI is 10-15% more efficient than the IDI, thus being able to produce more power with the same amount of given fuel. The energy from the combustion is not being wasted as heat, and is being used up.
There isn't much else different between an IDI Vw, and an early DI Vw engine.. 8V, Wastegated turbo's, VE rotary pumps
So basically if the Tdi spooled this turbo practically off idle and was making max boost and power at 1900rpms, I don't see why the free intake, no exhaust, and shorter intercooler piping won't make up for the .3 less liters.. Also you have to remember there is 10-15% more wasted energy (heat) going through the turbo now due to the less efficient combustion, which means the turbo should spool even better :).
I think I will be able to get max torque output around 1900-2000rpms no problemo.
1. quicker revving engine to get the turbo spooled
2. i'll be running more boost than the 13psi of the stock tdi
3. WAY more fuel than the tdi pumped in. Governor mod will allow me to have the maximum fueling ability of this injection pump as soon as the boost is on. (Yes it is a 9mm pump compared to a 10mm pump.. I think I have read a done up 9mm is still above a stock 10mm)
4. more energy from that fuel will be lost to heat and thus spooling the turbo
5. short free CAI
6. no exhaust. Just the downpipe.
7. short IC piping, literally if things go to plan it will be about 2 ft total. ;)
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What about the prospects of a VNT-15?
Can be a small and big turbo.. I havent really read up on the throttle controlled actuator though.. is it hard to fab up?
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To dig this back up, seriously considering turboing my n/a. I haven't already jumped on it because this is my one and only daily driver. So planning must be taken in to account eh? lol.
I realistically see 4000rpms in 5th is all that is needed for capabilities. Because that's 160km/h.. and would obviously only be used on those few occasions where I'm on a registered closed course ;).
So through my supplier.. I can get a full head gasket set (every gasket on the head, including heat shields and VC) and head-bolts for $95.. cheaper than i can get the head gasket alone locally.. wtf.
I will snag an oil filter mount, and an oilpan off one of the engines on its way to the wreckers. Tap the mount for the oil line.. actually would the ahu oil line be the same thread as the oil pressure switch that's already in the mount?