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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: regcheeseman on July 13, 2011, 05:31:17 pm
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GTD block, AAZ pump and injectors, TDI 10mm head all timed at 1.1mm
Hung a small motorbike expansion tank from the roof filled with diesel, and a line down to the pump inlet, open the inline tap and the pump swallows the tank contents (600ml)
Another top up and time to crank,
crank
crank
crank
crank
flat battery. >:(
roll up the other car and attach the BIG jump leads.
crank
crank
crank
crank
nothing, fuel doesn't appear to be dropping in the tank, :(
then I spot a dribble of diesel on no2 injector union and tighten it
crank, crank
number 3 joins in and number 1 and they get tightened.
crank, crank and now there is a spurt of what I presume is diesel coming up from low down on the pump, A quick look reveals that it's engine oil squirting from a pipe on the filter top that has not been tightened properly
crank crank and number four starts to spurt :)
ign off, ign on ....full glow
crank...wump, wump, clack, wump, wump, wump, clack, clack,wump, wump, wump, wump, wump, wump, wump, wump, wump, wump,
I repeat the process a few times and every time the number of clacks increases
then it fires, runs and dies - no fuel left in the header tank.
I top the tank and try again..... a few cranks and it fires and idles, hunts around a bit then settles - I try to rev it but it won't
I'm now conscious of two things.... I still have a rad pipe to fit and fill engine with coolant so I can't run it for long, and that I can no longer see the back of the garage ;D
I make my escape and go get a camera
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/P1030893.jpg)
Ok it'll need some tweaking, but for now I'm happy it runs.
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Great news! :) Is the vnt up controller up and running as well?
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Is the vnt up controller up and running as well?
nope, not quite.
(And less of the 'c' word)
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great news. Good luck and make me that controller please sir lol
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Congrats!
Why did you do a Franken motor?
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because the 1.6 engine was free, the 1.9 head was free, the pumps were nearly free - so why not!
I built it because I was running a 1.9 in my daily and having run GTDs previously, I loved the way the 1.6 spun up and it's driving fun. So I wanted the 1.6 bottom end, apparently the 1.9 head has better porting and could make more power.
But mainly I built it for the challenge.
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Good to see your 'invention' gradually changing from theory to practice.
Meanwhile will you manage another first and become the first dieselhead to die from carbon monoxide poisoning? ;D
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I was playing with the timing last night, had to evacuate several times!
I've got it to idle but it will only just rev a bit, a few hundred rpm with full throttle
I've got the timing advanced on the pulley slots as far as possible (1.2 mm preload)
I tried winding the fuel screw, it went all the way in to the stop without much change in revs.
Fuel supply is good, but lifter vanes may be stuck as it does seem to lift fuel as rapidly as other pumps I've seen sup a quart of diesel in a few seconds (these pumps may have had a lot of air in though)
What do you reckon?
I was thinking of jumping the pulley a tooth on the belt to allow more adjustment on the slots, and more advance. Any hint of retarding the timing and its black smoke/hunting/cutting out.
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Sometimes to much advance it just as bad as to little. Have you tried to start it at full retard in its current configuration? Just an idea since you cant' get it to rev up much. If you have been there, done that then like you I would be looking to flush the IP with something to be sure those vanes are not stuck. Since it runs you could do that.
Other great ideas? Did you mess around with the counter clockwise nut and the governor bolt at all? Maybe it is just limiting out on you. Then there is the position of the throttle arms on the shaft itself. Did you rebuild the pump I guess is the question. If so there may be places as mentioned to look for stuff out of adjustment. It doesn't take much on these pumps you know that.
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Thanks for the ideas, I've tried progressively more retard and it just gets worse - more smoke and less idle and complete reluctance to rev at all, to far on the retard and it wont idle even, filling the garage with thick black soot in minutes.
Flush the IP? Are we talking about ATF?
Counter clockwise nut and govenror bolt??? not sure what nut you mean but by gov bolt, do you mean the bolt the gov weight assembly spins on? If so, yes it was removed, marked first, turns out counted and refitted in what I'm sure is the same position.
The throttle arm is fine on the splines the throttle arm is pulling the throttle plate as expected.
Think I'll dial in some more advance, if I mark it first I can always set it back.
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By all means, try the ATF, maybe try feeding the pump with pressure too. (electric fuel pump), If the vanes are stuck, they may loosen up over time if you can get it to run for a while.
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Which turbo did you use on this Stein motor?
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It's a KKK BV39A-0072
Had a play earlier, wound some more advance in, and got to the stage where it was clacking hard for no gains so I set it back to the first bench setting.
At which point it's starting to struggle with the idle and running very quietly so I added a little bit of advance (2 - 3 degrees) to remove the hunting from a the idle.
Then grabbed the camera and got a video clip.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/th_Clip-enginerun-Segment100_00_04-00_00_53.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/?action=view¤t=Clip-enginerun-Segment100_00_04-00_00_53.mp4)
As you can see it's sat idling fine with very little smoke, adding max throttle and the engine speed lifts slightly and you can just make out the cloud of white smoke that quickly grows.
What do I do now??? What's the ATF trick and does it work?
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It does seem like it is a governor related issue.
ATF does work, use the cheapest atf you can find, not the newer synthetic stuff. IIRC it is Mercon II or typeF that doesn't have the friction modifier in it. The detergent qualities of the atf will usually free up stuck vanes in pumps, lifters in engines, and clean most everything. Run a bottle of it into the IP and leave it sit for a while.
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A while? 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days?
Do I just run it through pump once done or suck it back out?
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sure 5 days. The longer it sits the better it will break stuff down, but I would think a couple days. Run it right through the pump, it will not hurt anything.
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I have no clue what's going on, but I want this thread to show up in my new replies link.
I hope you figure it out, that is all...
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What's the history on the pump? Any chance it's 180° out? Have you tried different accelerator lever to shaft orientations? Diesel Purge is better than ATF.
It was a working AAZ pump body with and unknown TDI head (which looked fine)
There is the possiblity that it's 180 out, but highly unlikely. I will check though.
I took the top off the pump last night, everything looked right. I sucked out the diesel and checked the spill valve was moving (all fine), then I pump ATF through the inlet until it brimmed - it'll sit like that for a bit.
A pressure feed will be the first thing I try when it goes back together.
If that fails I've two spare GTD pumps on the bench.
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You kept the AAZ camplate i hope?
A friend of mine put a TDI head 180deg off in a mtdi pump, there was absolutely no chance to get that thing started at all. Not even a hint of combustion.
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Yep AAZ camplate which was seemingly identical to the TDI one.
A friend of mine put a TDI head 180deg off in a mtdi pump, there was absolutely no chance to get that thing started at all. Not even a hint of combustion.
It starts well.
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AAZ camplate has longer duration on the lobes than TDI, I've compared them visually myself.
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Yep AAZ camplate which was seemingly identical to the TDI one.
A friend of mine put a TDI head 180deg off in a mtdi pump, there was absolutely no chance to get that thing started at all. Not even a hint of combustion.
It starts well.
So engine is good, and problem is in pump. How much diesel do you get circulated for a minute of idle? Rig up a simple pressure gauge to read the internal pump pressure. I guess you can do this after your ATF experiment.
Having said all that , engines good, and that cloud behind you tells me that there is no shortage of fuel. So I now think it is somehow a gross error in timning. Try hand cranking with g/p's disconected [merely to save battery] and unnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnbolt #1 fuel line at the injector, and look for coincidence of diesel pulse with
1) TDC and including
2) #1 compression stroke which means cam cover off...
Mark
Failing that help your local arable farmer with some crop spraying ;D
EDIT I need to shoot my over keen 'n' button... ::)
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How much diesel do you get circulated for a minute of idle?
How much should I get circulated?
Back to the timing issue, it can't really be a slight timing issue, because I've wandered the timing about all around the '1.2mm sweet spot' and it only gets worse.
I think 180 prob is looking likely....
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I think if you had about a pint that would be sufficient, but don't quote me.
Have you made up an adaptor for internal pump pressure? For a 107A pump I believe it was about 45psi at idle, but my pump was working at 18psi.
After some naval gazing I think that may have been better for my pump due to lower pressures needed for correct dynamic advance.
Here's my modified out bolt to allow both the out banjo, and the gauge banjo:
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8439/modifiedoutputboltsetup.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/modifiedoutputboltsetup.jpg/)
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Tap a fitting in the top of the banjo would do it yes? VW quote 4 - 7 bar in their training manual.
As for the 180 issue. My running issues don't seem to match the symptoms of those that have done it by mistake in the past.
i.e. starts easy, idles smooth with no smoke and normal clatter, EGT doesn't even register on the guage (yes it does work)
i'll check it though.
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LOL 99 times out of 100, you'd be correct Andrew. Alas in this case [ie this bolt ] you are a big 1 in 100 wrong ;D
Here's the naked bolt:
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6161/gauzeexposuretogaugeflo.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/gauzeexposuretogaugeflo.jpg/)
(http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/3236/trimmedgaugebanjo.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/815/trimmedgaugebanjo.jpg/)
The important things to note, are the thin bolt head. Coupled with the mere 8mm gauge banjo, this gave me 3 whole turns of thread to hold the outbolt. Note the rough grinding of the outbolt by the return flow hole. This allowed the pump's banjo to travel up the bolt and still have the return flow entering the banjo.
The normal banjo seals against the bolt head with the seal I made. A second seal goes between the two banjos.
This second seal grips the bolt on the start of the unthreaded part, and actually tucks into a slight chamfer on the gauge banjo, and gets tighter as bolt nipped up.
The other side of the gauge banjo actually seals on the fine/machined face of the pump without a copper washer. [trying to pinch every inch, or should I say thou, to enable my standard, but spare outbolt to be used].
The clever bit IMO is that the internal pump pressure travels up the threads and enters the gauge banjo. Not a great volume, but we are talking static pressure, and minor leaks are overcome by the pumps massive reserves.The thread travel may supply potentially more than the true outlet.
It works, but whilst 3 turns are enough for testing purposes I would not trust it for a permanant fixture, which I don't think is needed in any event.
My proudest point in this design, is not the hand ground banjo, nor the hand filed bolt head, but actually the two seals which are made by using discs of those plastic milk bottles that we recycle weekly! The polythene melds round the bolts perfectly. If you click on the bolt pic you will see behind it's head the second [first sealing to the bolt like a skin... 8)
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Tap a fitting in the top of the banjo would do it yes? VW quote 4 - 7 bar in their training manual.
As for the 180 issue. My running issues don't seem to match the symptoms of those that have done it by mistake in the past.
i.e. starts easy, idles smooth with no smoke and normal clatter, EGT doesn't even register on the guage (yes it does work)
i'll check it though.
I think you basically have a good engine, and it will burn anything it can, thus it will start from the vapour still hanging around when compression stroke comes back around.
As the fuel is not igniting properly because it is seeing lower pressures on the down stroke, it is basically lining the chamber walls with diesel.
Increasing the volume means more is going out the exhaust as fuel steam.
Engine is kept running by the dregs that are evaporating off the walls at the compression stroke.
I suppose if you 'exhaust gas recycled', it would shoot off down the road.
Didn't Hagar claim he'd started a diesel in reverse :o
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Mark, unless it is permanently installed, then your setup is not accurate. It is blocking the normal flow up the threads and measuring the pressure when flow is only through the orifice. Once you replace your setup with the actual pump out bolt, the flow will be both around the threads and out the orifice and consequently lower than your setup would display. While you might consider it clever it isn't functionally accurate.
How much flow do you think will run up a bolt that is fully inserted? IE what is the thickness of the wall of the pump?
I asume that in normal circumstances, the bolt does not penetrate much beyond the wall, therefore the bolt with only one banjo on, is inserted fully and penetrates to the depth of abot 11 or 12mm, which is about 8 threads.
If the metered release hole and the thread gap are of similar size [thread data is available in books ], then the thread capilary tube stretched out would be about 25 times 8mm, compared with perhaps 2mm metered hole depth.
I make that about 100 to 1 difference in pipe length, and so maybe 1% flow rate up the threads, I think that's right. If flow rate is proportionate to resistance. Either way it's such a small flow loss that the vane pump won't even know of the pressure gain...
Better than 1% error is my submission ;D
If the elusive pedestal is not available then incorrect threading would also block the flow. Or does the original one block the flow too :o
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The thread travel may supply potentially more than the true outlet.
Unless you mis-posted, you initially state that the flow through the threads may be greater than that through the orifice in the bolt.
If the metered release hole and the thread gap are of similar size [thread data is available in books ], then the thread capilary tube stretched out would be about 25 times 8mm, compared with perhaps 2mm metered hole depth.
I make that about 100 to 1 difference in pipe length, and so maybe 1% flow rate up the threads, I think that's right. If flow rate is proportionate to resistance. Either way it's such a small flow loss that the vane pump won't even know of the pressure gain...
Better than 1% error is my submission ;D
Are you saying that the flow rate through a pipe of consistent diameter is directly proportional to the pipe's length? A 1 meter long pipe will flow 100 times that of a 100 meter pipe of the same diameter?
Regardless, I'm glad you think it works well enough for you. I wouldn't recommend that system to anyone else. I'm done with this conversation.
The flow rate through the thread is far less; High Reynolds No. stuff. I was working it out as I wrote, and I said even if it was greater, it wouldn't matter.
I'm not saying it is 100 to 1 attenuation, but that it might be, especially where we are talking small bores and high viscosity.
Either way my way works, and what you stated I was effectively doing is incorrect:
Andrew said
"That looks like you are trying to read internal pressure from around the perimeter of the "out" bolt. If that is what you are doing, then it will not work. Once the fuel passes from the center of the bolt into the banjo it is no longer pressurized. You are reading the pressure of the fuel returning to the tank rather than the internal pressure of the pump ."
If you can't answer my polite question of what you think the error on the pressure will be to a vane pump that can pressurise over 200psi and maintain an excess flow rate beyond combustion of perhaps a couple of litres per minute, then don't bother. ::) My method is an alternative for testing, it works and outbolts are as common as nuts on a tree, unlike pedestals and I'd recommend it to anyone and everyone.
Do you end all conversations that you butted into with "I'm done with this conversation" That's a bit 'durrish' really as you may have further useful and constructive things to say... Or not ???
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Didn't Hagar claim he'd started a diesel in reverse
To lighten the mood, an anecdote.......
Back in the day when I was 16, we all had mopeds and would hang around youth stylee looking cool. One of the lads could bump start his DT 50 in reverse.
He would do it, blip the throttle a bit and ask a unwitting bystander if they'd like a go on his bike - most would jump at the chance.
They'd eagerly rev the bike move their weight forward to couteract the awesome 49cc thrust and dump the clutch.
Normally the bike would lurch backwards and the pilot would catch a petrol tank in the family jewels before taking a header over the bars.
Everyone would just fall about laughing.
meanwhile back in the here and now....
I've got a spare, joke LDA AAZ pump sat on the bench, completely standard. Shouldn't take long to slap that one in....
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That's interesting, just looked up the DT 50 on Youtube, it certainly looked a reasonable ride.
When did it date from? I grew up with unregulated Gileras, and Garellis IIRC, I thought they were the last of the unrestricted bunch.
Before I was 16 I used to go on the back of my mate's, and we used to speed along the old canal towpath, fall off fall in climb out and laugh.
Those were the days.
Alas he was killed by an elver fisherman!
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You must have missed the DT50MX by a couple of years as everything got restricted just before I started to ride :(
The FS1E was the only pre-restriction bike commonly seen, all the italian exotica had seized or fallen apart long before then.
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You must have missed the DT50MX by a couple of years as everything got restricted just before I started to ride :(
The FS1E was the only pre-restriction bike commonly seen, all the italian exotica had seized or fallen apart long before then.
OK now I get the picture. If the FS1E was unrestricted, then you would have loved the 1977 Gilera. IIRC you could get 50 to 60mph out of it. After that we moved onto Minis and Hilman Imps...
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I've fitted the NA pump up last night, noting the engines cam was a degree or so out - not enough to cause problems?
It was gone 2AM when I finished, as much as I wanted too, I didn't try to start the motor - not sure the neighbours would share my enthusiasm (they are school teachers and on holiday now - I'm the one that HAS to get up for work)
I'm tempted to strip my pump down to the vanes and make sure it's right, just to check, the pulley keyway should line up with the pin in the distributor drive?
Should the spill orrifice align with port 1 on the head too?
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I've fitted the NA pump up last night, noting the engines cam was a degree or so out - not enough to cause problems?
Nope. Small swings merely shift power band slightly
It was gone 2AM when I finished, as much as I wanted too, I didn't try to start the motor - not sure the neighbours would share my enthusiasm (they are school teachers and on holiday now - I'm the one that HAS to get up for work) :(
I'm tempted to strip my pump down to the vanes and make sure it's right, just to check, the pulley keyway should line up with the pin in the distributor drive?
Should the spill orrifice align with port 1 on the head too?
Can't coment re pump internals, I 'll defer to 'CADman' however what you mention sounds right. As you have the old pump on the bench, before dismantling, reinstate the pulley, and note the firing order and turn with a spanner, noting the fuel pulse timing relative to the pulley notch. If na pump doesnt help, then pull injectors and attach them to the benched pump and rig up a handle under the pulley bolt and create a 4 at a time spray checker, thus checking your pump with your injectors...
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OK, run number two.....
Unknown pump with bits missing, guessed at timing.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/th_golfrun2.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/?action=view¤t=golfrun2.mp4)
;D
Interestingly it sucked my aux tank dry in twenty seconds, the other pump didn't - not even close.
Money is on the vane pump.
Now - do I swap the bits onto this pump or do I repair the original....
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OK, run number two.....
Unknown pump with bits missing, guessed at timing.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/th_golfrun2.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/?action=view¤t=golfrun2.mp4)
;D
Interestingly it sucked my aux tank dry in twenty seconds, the other pump didn't - not even close.
Money is on the vane pump.
Now - do I swap the bits onto this pump or do I repair the original....
Told you it was a good engine. However if it was the vane pump, how do you not burn fuel that you are not pumping? :o
No/little internal pump pressure means no/little dynamic advance. Thus up to 20 degrees crank advance missing I think. Thus way retarded. Vane pumps are so simple, I wonder what is wrong? Stuck or badly scoured? Is that a part you didn't touch in your rebuild?
Strip it down and find problem, then decide...
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Pump stripped last night, advance mech was a bit cruddy, maybe not moving as freely as it could but I don't think that was the problem.
I couldn't find my tri-lobular socket, so will have to grind another - therefore I'm stuck until I get the levers out.
I'm really unsure on the whole keyway/pins/spill orifice setup ???? it seems as though you get two right and the third is wrong?
I think it's just confusion over terminology on my part but I guess the pin could be anywhere providing that the piston's port is aligned with the correct injector?
I think I'll pull an old pump apart just to confirm exactly what should be lined up where.
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Do you have a copy of that pump rebulid in pictures, that comes to the surface from time to time?
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I do, I posted a link to it yesterday, someone wanting pump rebuild info.
If you want me to email the original with the big photos I can - but it's a big file 20+ Meg originally.
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I do, I posted a link to it yesterday, someone wanting pump rebuild info.
If you want me to email the original with the big photos I can - but it's a big file 20+ Meg originally.
Not for me you West Country Bumpkin, I thought you might need it LOL.
It struck me that if there was a problem with that vane pump pressure regulator, it would explain all the symptoms. You know the one by the pump pulley that a part chewed 10mm socket fits. Tapping in might cure it. However my pump was operating well at 18psi at tickover.
Just in case someone takes offence to my rudeness, I'm also West country, however being in Gloucester, Scottish think I'm English, Londoners think we are in Wales, Cornish think we are in the Midlands, Midlanders think we are Bristolians. Welsh think we are on the borders waiting to invade....
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you're not 'west country' - you're all 'no marks' cos nobody wants you, even Bristolians will have nothing to do with you and they're mostly scumbags.
;)
(In case anyone else cares to take offence) My entire family live in/originate from Gloucester/Forest of Dean/South Wales/Bristol area, fortunately my parents moved to North Devon to live with turnips.
Ahem...
The pump vanes were nicely jammed solid. They are sorted now and the pump is back together.
It wasn't 180 out. :P
I can't run it up until tomorrow night - fingers crossed.
As for the guide.... yep I thought I might need it and printed it out at work to bring home. I grabbed it off the printer as I left without noticing there were 4 pages instead of 11.
When I came to use it earlier I realised my mistake ::)
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I second Mark's comment about checking that pressure regulator. You need his or some other take off to measure the IP pump pressure to get to the 43-45 lbs at idle. He mentions his @ 18 psi but his is a special case. Just like him.
I have an IP gauge installed to watch the pressure under transport and I am surprised at the differences a gear makes. 5th gives me 60 lbs and 4th is 62-3 but the higher RPMs make it much more responsive. I am hoping to tweak the pump with either fuel additives or the regulator to give me a few more lbs in fifth. Timing is everything.
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Come on, this thumb twiddling is killing me ;D
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Someone check that smokey garage over there for bodies will ya?
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Someone check that smokey garage over there for bodies will ya?
I bet he's gone and started it up with the g/b in reverse, and collapsed his garage, or worse still...
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_693479.html
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COUGH
COUGH
HACK
COUGH
(spits black tar)
COUGH
COUGH.....
Well it runs. you've heard the phrase blowing coal?
A young petrol head golf owner had come round to buy some seats, but he was interested to see it run up, he was in for a shock.
This is how it went....
went for run three last night.... it bled up fairly quick, then showed 0 sign of life because the bleed bolt was loose on the head.
Bolt tightened I try again, it fired, spluttered a bit then took off, RUNAWAY!
I pulled the plug and escaped before the thick black cloud came down again. It was a good ten minutes before you could see the back of the garage again.
Backed the fuel screw down 2 turns and tried again
It didn't want to go, then I noticed the aux tank had been slurped dry, I topped it up and went again....
It fired up after a few seconds cranking and settled into a highish idle. I stopped the motor, disconnected the aux tank and switched to the main tank feed. The pump was sucking the aux tank dry in a matter of seconds.
Fired up again and there was a bit of splutter as the main diesel came on. then smooth idle about 1300 rpm :)
I tried to get the the idle down and ran out of adjustment.
Revving the motor produces huge clouds of thick black death, so maybe the fuel is a little high still! But boy does it want to rev. :)
There's no turbo at the moment, I can't fit the inlet manifold until the clutch master turns up and I can get that fitted.
I'll get the turbo/interrcooler pipework fitted up soon and back down the pump (timing and fuel delivery)
Then get a video....
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Brum brum.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/th_golfrun3.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/regcheeseman/?action=view¤t=golfrun3.mp4)
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sounds awesome. ;D good job
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The new TERROR of North Devon. Does have a hearty pull to it. Keep adjusting once you get the rest on and running. I fear for the small children and dogs in the neighborhood.
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Great stuff, but I look forward to hearing it withthe manifolds and exhaust on. Probably sound like a kitten ;D
When my exhaust sheared off at the turbo, going through Worcester in a traffic jam was interesting. At idle it was just a loud old car but as soon as I loaded it, the turbo would pick up and it sounded like a jet warming up. Very embarassing, except when I was behind a young racer with his GTI revving up. Then he could only look in the mirror and wonder 8)
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Probably sound like a kitten
Do you have a kitten that likes to hammer violently?
I've played with the timing last night, finally settling on 1.15 mm advance.
(Just to recap - GTD/1Y hybrid with AAZ pump and 10mm TDI pumphead.)
Any less and the engine would start to smoke a bit white and splutter a bit, more and the clatter is worse.
As it stands now, it starts easy, runs clean and the only reluctance is a slight misfire if you give it too much throttle when the motor is cold.
Once it's up to temperature it's fine. Hopefully this will be the same once under load.
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What injectors? Break pressures?
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possibly 1Y or AAZ injectors set at 155 BAR