VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: vdubspeed on June 26, 2011, 09:45:38 am
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Just cause you might wanna see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZgxX1staok (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZgxX1staok)
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some more boost would lower your egts and increase your fun. and i remember you asking about my gti tach in my diesel, check out the faq theres a really good write up in there, i know from seeing some of your other projects that u can easily handle the conversion.
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cool cool. I might crank it up a bit. thanks for that info.
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Wait, you said that you hadn't started it all morning but a quick glance at the temp gauge says other wise. Whats the wraping/taping noise?
Good video about the EGTs though.
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Looking at it again, your coolant temps rise very quick.Was it already warm or what?
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Something is definitely wrong with the coolant temp gauge or sender.. or it was started warm.
You're at operating temps before your out of the driveway... Hows that happen?
Thanks for the vid.
Bear in mind that with your n/a pump, the highest actual EGTs occur when you floor it off-boost. As boost rises actual EGTs drop until you reach the opening pressure of the wastegate. If the EGT shown on the gauge is still rising at the moment you off the pedal, then the actual EGTs are considerably higher than the gauge is showing at that moment.
Why is that Andrew?
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NA pumps that have been modded or not modded give less fuel when you get boost. It leans out due to no on-boost fueling.
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temp gauge is all over the place, it didn't sound cold to me but the gauge is faulty or there's a serious prob with the mill.
Isn't much faster than an NA is it?
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ah...you guys are silly. This car has no temp guage, nor does it have an oil pressure gauge.
Those wires are just flopping all around in the engine bay:) I just swapped in a new car harness a few weeks ago and my previous harness...those wires had all been cut. I left them in the bay in hopes of installing some senders.
Anyway...the motor is bone cold when I started it. I have no reason nor inclination to e-lie.
It's not fast at all but it's faster than an NA. No diesel VW is fast. That's what my 20vT and 16vT rabbits are for:)
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No diesel VW is fast. That's what my 20vT and 16vT rabbits are for:)
This diesel VW is fast!!!
http://youtu.be/RvWH3Ek7h-k
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oh...you got me. I forgot about those RWD Polo's with TDI swapped motors. Saw one just the other day. :-X
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oh...you got me. I forgot about those RWD Polo's with TDI swapped motors. Saw one just the other day. :-X
yeah my grandma has one
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Lot of TDI's would argue with that no fast vw diesel bit. :)
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great.
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Holy Crap 10.3s...
NA pumps that have been modded or not modded give less fuel when you get boost. It leans out due to no on-boost fueling.
An n/a pump can push as much fuel as a td pump, being that the actual fuel pumping part is identical inside. I've not heard of n/a pumps leaning out when used in turbo applications.
ALSO, how can you say its not much faster than an n/a? Have you driven the two in comparable cars? I have two bone stock 1984 Jetta's, one n/a and one td.. the td is clearly faster than my n/a and its stock, the N/a even has the gov mod.. and the td still pulls away, except for when i have the n/a up around 4500 on the highway! lmao
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I'm just going by the vid and watching the speed-o movement. I've had a few of both. Turbo's nice if you have hills or altitude to deal with, otherwise, meh. NA AAZ is my fav combo so far still.
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My friend down the road has a 1.6 NA with TWO mods. Giles pump and an exhaust.
How about a video of me racing him in my turbo 1.6NA.
That would put to rest REAL quick if it's faster than an NA...especially one with a Giles pump. ;D
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My friend down the road has a 1.6 NA with TWO mods. Giles pump and an exhaust.
How about a video of me racing him in my turbo 1.6NA.
That would put to rest REAL quick if it's faster than an NA...especially one with a Giles pump. ;D
oh, its faster alright.. if your rabbit runs anything like mine, then its quick as hell. if i had a different trans, my car would be fast too. my old rabbit used to do ~120, maybe a tad more, with an AUG close ratio trans and a turbo 1.5D..
do you have the governator mod done yet? fuel screw cranked up any?
idk why your car doesnt feel fast, my car will torch both front tires off in 3rd gear..
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It doesn't feel fast because when you drive a 20vT rabbit that makes 263whp/248ft/lbs...you are kinda jaded.
The more cars I ride in that are "fast"...aren't really that badass. Now I did ride in an 11 sec GTO the other day and that was fast.
Don't get me wrong...I <3 my turbo diesel but she ain't no speed demon. Yes it has the gov mod(AWESOME). Fuel screw is 1.5 turns. Anymore than that and it will hang. Need more boost and an intercooler.
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A member on here has a ALH TDI that puts out somewhere near 250ft.lbs.. I prefer my 1.6 n/a ;)
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Yeah.... I love these things, I've driven them for fifteen years now, I learned to drive in them, etc, etc. But in the land of 300hp 4 door family sedans, they ain't fast. You've about got to be talking way low 14's to be in the neighborhood these days as far as I'm concerned. It's all about context though, I'm around "fast" cars all day at work. I'd still rather drive my Caddy.
Speaking of which, and at the risk of pouring fuel on a fire, nobody EVER takes there hopped up VW D's to the drag strip and fesses up some numbers.
I have a suspicion why, but I'd like to see some figures if anyone has em. :)
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Speaking of which, and at the risk of pouring fuel on a fire, nobody EVER takes there hopped up VW D's to the drag strip and fesses up some numbers.
I have a suspicion why, but I'd like to see some figures if anyone has em. :)
Well, with my old 0-60 time of 21s... I'm afraid to see what a 1/4 will be! lmao
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I learned to drive in an '82 Benz 240D with two bumper stickers:
"0-60 in five MILES"
and
"I may be slow, but I'm in FRONT of YOU!"
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I want a sticker for near my tail pipe with an arrow pointing to it and CANCER in big letters. Being un-PC is a hobby. :)
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My old 1.6 gasser went 21 in the 1/4 ;D
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Displacement being equal I don't think the early gassers were much stronger than the ole 1.6D
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Watching the OP's video has got me thinking. There are tons of conversations on here about safe EGT ranges. One of the concensus is that the high EGT's should never be sustained for a few seconds.
Now it seems to me that by that video that a sustained high temp like the ones we are fearful of is nere imossible as soon as he is off the gas or at cruising speed, the temps instantly plummet. Metal no matter what the melting point needs to be at that temp for a sustained amount of time. It doesn't seem to me like that is something that can be done unless you intentionally hold it at WOT. Granted I live somewhere where there is zero hill driving, but it just seems to me that with normal driving, you should never have to worry about melting anything.
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Balz, I agree with you. And not only that but let's looks at the ones who have put turbo's on the CR and ME motors with no piston squirters, sodium filled exhaust valves or the extra oil capacity and cooling. They have then been driven like hell and beat down, yet still continue to start in the cold and run just fine.
For aluminum to melt, it needs some high temps ( can't recall the temp right now). It also needs to be directly heated continuously for a sustained time.. Every intake stroke brings cool air in to the cylinder, and every individual stroke bathes the cylinder/piston in (cooler than combustion) cool oil. So when you see 1200F the metal isn't 1200F.. Its more than likely a few hundred degress less.. Unless you sustain 1200F for several minutes I don't thin you have anything to worry about.
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Watching the OP's video has got me thinking. There are tons of conversations on here about safe EGT ranges. One of the concensus is that the high EGT's should never be sustained for a few seconds.
Now it seems to me that by that video that a sustained high temp like the ones we are fearful of is nere imossible as soon as he is off the gas or at cruising speed, the temps instantly plummet. Metal no matter what the melting point needs to be at that temp for a sustained amount of time. It doesn't seem to me like that is something that can be done unless you intentionally hold it at WOT. Granted I live somewhere where there is zero hill driving, but it just seems to me that with normal driving, you should never have to worry about melting anything.
thats exactly it, you dont have to worry about it unless you are going up a hill, floor boarded, then it might get hot enough to damage some things..
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the thing is yeah it melts at 1200 or w/e but at what point does it warp or expand too much
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the thing is yeah it melts at 1200 or w/e but at what point does it warp or expand too much
the pistons expand and seize before they melt..
pure aluminum melts at, or around 1344* F
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just to throw MORE gas in the fire...this car DOES NOT have extra oil capacity, an oil cooler, oil squirters, sodlium filled valves, etc.
The ONLY thing I did was increase the oil pressure with a TD pump. (again...thanks Libby)
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just to throw MORE gas in the fire...this car DOES NOT have extra oil capacity, an oil cooler, oil squirters, sodlium filled valves, etc.
The ONLY thing I did was increase the oil pressure with a TD pump. (again...thanks Libby)
i am running a USED TD oil pump and pan in my build. the rest is a stock CS code vanagon engine.. stock pump, head, pistons, everything..
with a VNT15, millennia intercooler, and a cranked up n/a pump..
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Well holy crap...5psi. Yup...5 psi is all she has.
Finally got around to tossing in a gauge today and the best it did was 5 but MAYBE 6. Either way...nothing.
I'll be ordering a Hallman MBC like all my other turbo cars to crank this biotch up ;D
So I've already pushing the limit on EGTs...what's the "vwdiesel.net"-sacred-you-will-die-if-you-go-over limit. I'll make sure to go 5 psi over that ;)
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Well holy crap...5psi. Yup...5 psi is all she has.
Finally got around to tossing in a gauge today and the best it did was 5 but MAYBE 6. Either way...nothing.
I'll be ordering a Hallman MBC like all my other turbo cars to crank this biotch up ;D
So I've already pushing the limit on EGTs...what's the "vwdiesel.net"-sacred-you-will-die-if-you-go-over limit. I'll make sure to go 5 psi over that ;)
ive already supplied ~40 psi to a stock 1.5D.. it blew up shortly after the gauge rocketed past 35 psi.. 7 cracked/broken head bolt bosses.
and i basically burnt one down too.. 1.6D pushing 25 psi for about 4 minutes straight, up a hill, floored.. top of the hill i lost power and the engine locked.. dunno how hot it was, i would guess it was over 1500* tho..
the 1.6 still runs to this day, and the 1.5 ran when i took it out, it just took 5 gallons of coolant to go 2.5 miles..
the stock head gasket/bolts are good for ~20 psi all day long.. your EGTs are going to plummet when you crank up the boost..
you got a K03 right? might want to limit your boost to about 15 psi, so it doesnt kill your turbo.. those little turbos get really inefficient really fast once they get past 15 psi..
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cool...I'll start off at 15psi.
The turbo is stock from a 98 Jetta TDI.
Looks like this:
(http://www.turbosandparts.com/images/T15Turbo2.JPG)
So when you say the 1.6 locked up but still runs...did it soft seize, break free, and you're still using it?
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it seized up.. if i wouldnt have thrown the clutch in, it would have been skidding the tires..
idk how soft that is..
yes, i just drove the car yesterday. runs beautifully.
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well by soft seize I mean that it seized but freed up.
Or did you have to overbore for new pistons?
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no, all ive done since the incident, is intercool it, and change the oil..
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Wow, I didn't realize that engine you seized still lives! That makes me less worried about running high egt's. I figured running too high would turn that engine into scrap, but I suppose my chances would be high to keep running it until I can get a TDI long block replacement dropped in! :P
And Libby, I have the same Auber gauge and it reacts impressively fast. You can't really tell by how quickly the temp rises as you don't know how fast your EGT's are truly rising, but the real thing is how quickly the temp drops. You can see in his video going from 1300-800 in about a second. Even if the true temp was say 500deg (it would definitely be higher at that point), the probe still dropped a significant temp in a fairly short time, while still surrounded by hot air.
I wish I had taken a video of it, but I tested how quick it reacted with a propane torch. It would reach 2000deg in about 2-3s and pulling the torch away, it would be under 200 in another 3 seconds or so.
Yes, at the point you let off the pedal, the temperature is higher that the gauge shows, but I personally would use the word slightly instead of considerable.
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Wow, I didn't realize that engine you seized still lives! That makes me less worried about running high egt's. I figured running too high would turn that engine into scrap, but I suppose my chances would be high to keep running it until I can get a TDI long block replacement dropped in! :P
And Libby, I have the same Auber gauge and it reacts impressively fast. You can't really tell by how quickly the temp rises as you don't know how fast your EGT's are truly rising, but the real thing is how quickly the temp drops. You can see in his video going from 1300-800 in about a second. Even if the true temp was say 500deg (it would definitely be higher at that point), the probe still dropped a significant temp in a fairly short time, while still surrounded by hot air.
I wish I had taken a video of it, but I tested how quick it reacted with a propane torch. It would reach 2000deg in about 2-3s and pulling the torch away, it would be under 200 in another 3 seconds or so.
Yes, at the point you let off the pedal, the temperature is higher that the gauge shows, but I personally would use the word slightly instead of considerable.
people dont give these engines enough credit, you have to beat the holy S#-- out of them to kill them. or run them dry of coolant or oil..
ive never seen an engine take soo much abuse and still run as stellar as my engine still does..
(i beat on it pretty hard right after it seized, i was kinda more or less trying to blow it up, but all it did, was get better.)
ive never seen an engine basically have a total recovery from the seize..
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HOT DAMN!
We have great success!!! Built a $9 boost controller from Ace hardware and got the boost turned up to the 15psi range. It spikes some but mainly stays in that region. Runs AWESOME and the EGTs have plummeted. Where as I used to feather the throttle from hitting 1500...I have to FLOOR it to see 1200 and then it's time to shift.
I swear I have no more than $300 or $400 in this turbo install and it rips. I will probably be making a trip to the 1/4 mile track to get some numbers. I will do some in car and out of car video for sure.
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HOT DAMN!
We have great success!!! Built a $9 boost controller from Ace hardware and got the boost turned up to the 15psi range. It spikes some but mainly stays in that region. Runs AWESOME and the EGTs have plummeted. Where as I used to feather the throttle from hitting 1500...I have to FLOOR it to see 1200 and then it's time to shift.
I swear I have no more than $300 or $400 in this turbo install and it rips. I will probably be making a trip to the 1/4 mile track to get some numbers. I will do some in car and out of car video for sure.
finally, another believer!
i have WAY UNDER $1k in my TD rabbit..
wish i had a pyrometer..
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yup...everything you have said has been true. I couldn't be more happy.
I don't understand how it could run any better even with a turbo pump.
It starts INSTANTLY, idles perfectly, NEVER smokes, hauls ass, and is a blast to drive.
I'm sold on NA IDI to turbo conversions.
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I've had my N/A to turbo engine up to 1450 F sustained for about 400 miles :o :o with the only stopping to repair popped boost hoses.
I do have an oil cooler though, and coated pistons, and a metal head gasket, but otherwise it's a stock 1.6 NA engine and NA pump.
I actually hate low laggy the boost is and how much it smokes off of boost. Running about 12 psi which is as much as I can get without turning up the fuel more and making intersections vanish at stoplights. VNT is in my future.
But yeah, tough as hell little engines.
Brendan
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I've had my N/A to turbo engine up to 1450 F sustained for about 400 miles :o :o with the only stopping to repair popped boost hoses.
I do have an oil cooler though, and coated pistons, and a metal head gasket, but otherwise it's a stock 1.6 NA engine and NA pump.
I actually hate low laggy the boost is and how much it smokes off of boost. Running about 12 psi which is as much as I can get without turning up the fuel more and making intersections vanish at stoplights. VNT is in my future.
But yeah, tough as hell little engines.
Brendan
my pump is cranked to the max (idle almost hangs, and smokes off boost) and with the VNT i only get smoke for a second, then the turbo lites and off we go.. VNTs are the way of the future..
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I WANT more fuel but can't add anymore in or it will rev-hang. HOWEVER...I NEVER see smoke. Not off or on boost.
Nothing like when I was NA. I'm only 1.5 rotations in on my screw but if I go to 2 then it hangs. How are you guys getting so much damn fuel and not hanging?
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21600.0
I went the Giles route and have a TD pump but ^ way works for you too. Also, the Governor mod will help as well.
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I have done the gov mod. My problem is different than what libby is explaining.
That is for people who turned up their fuel so much they can't bring their idle down. I had that problem in the beginning and followed his advice and have moved the 1 spline.
My problem is I want EVEN MORE fuel. If I try to add any more it's not that I can't get a good idle...it's that when I rev it....it won't ever come back to idle. It pretty much becomes a run away engine.
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i think this is where a td pump would probably help, once u let off the pedal ur losing the drive pressure and thus losing the boost pressure, but still getting too much fuel causing it to hang. on a td pump when u let off the pedal u lose the drive pressure and the boost, and also get fueling cut due to the lack of boost.
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I have run at 1500F for several seconds with no apparent ill effects. Has anyone actually melted anything? I have seen pics of built diesel trucks with glowing downpipes and no engine damage. Surely stock gassers must run higher egt's and they don't melt stuff.
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What kind of mods was he running?
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So whats an extreme fuel to air ratio and whats a standard AFR? For diesel that is.
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I melted a piston in my old tired 1.9 TD running 25lbs of boost and a superpump from giles
it takes alot to melt things, i was going pretty quick with no egt or intercooler and it popped BAD
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A friend's:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/a417.jpg)
holy crap.. how did he melt it on the back side? usually the front of the piston is the hot side..
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So whats an extreme fuel to air ratio and whats a standard AFR? For diesel that is.
who knows? haha. ive seen lots of pistons that were starting to melt on the injection side of the piston
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FYI, Audi 2.7 TT gasser engines start to enrich the mixture (making cooler) when egt's get to 950C. (1742 F !!!!!!)
I think what makes diesels more sensitive to high EGT is that our combustion event lasts much longer in comparison. That's the only logical hypothesis that I can come up with anyway.
Brendan