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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 15, 2011, 12:05:55 pm
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I was told the gap between the strut cap and the up and down movement between the cap and strut tower while the wheel is hanging is not normal so I removed both front struts to investigate. All 4 bottom strut mounting bolts snapped! They all snapped at the same spot, right at the nut. They were not overly corroded and I wire brushed them before putting a liberal amount of good quality penetrating fluid before applying torque to loosen them. It didn't help.
Anyway I saw that the top bolt (at the knuckle) has a smaller shank diameter than the bottom bolt and per the Bently that is to allow adjustment of camber. I measured the holes in the knuckle and the top hole is 9.5 mm while the bottom hole is 12.3 mm
I matched up all 4 snapped bolts to see where they broke and noted the smaller shank upper bolts has the same thread diameter as the lower bolts, which is M12 x 1.5. I tried inserting the broken upper stud with nut still stuck to it (with 1/2 " of tread protruding) into the upper hole and it would not go in! How can that be? How is that possible? How was that assembled in the first place? That upper bolt clearly went through the strut then the knuckle, with a nut securing it, before it snapped off. WTH is going on?
I need to buy new bolts and non of the dealers around here has them in stock. I am not sure that if I order the bolts whether the upper bolt will fit. If it is M12 x 1.5 it definitely will not go in. This has been a very strange ordeal. Can someone shed some light on this?
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holy crap, you broke the alignment bolts?
how hard of a pot hole did you hit?
i wrecked a mk2, and the front suspension was still golden..
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got any pics of the offending area?
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Here are the broken bolts. On the left are the 2 top camber adjusting bolts with smaller shank.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/Photo_061511_001.jpg)
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The broken bolt insertedd into the knuckle top hole (less the strut) and this is the position it was in before it snapped.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/Photo_061511_002.jpg)
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When I tried to insert the broken half with the M12 x 1.5 thread into the top knuckle bolt hole, it would not go in! The hole was measured at 9.5 mm but the threaded portion of the broken bolt is 12 mm.
I can't understand how that bolt was put in. It is physically impossible.
I am totally stumped! Someone please help me.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/Photo_061511_003.jpg)
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Oh man, I am so glad I dont live on the East Coast!
Ok, the top bolts are not the correct bolts for the car. They are aftermarket junk. The problem is that rust has filled the area in the top hole making it difficult to install the proper diameter bolt. You may need to drill the rust out of it. The reason they likely broke was because the centers were seized into the spindle.
Either way, get some new OEM bolts and nuts and call it a day.
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so, how much air did you catch? ive jumped my mk2s before and never done that..
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I think whoever worked on them last overtightened them badly. Probably with an impact wrench.
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Actually, whoever worked on it last used inferior grade bolts that are 2/3 the diameter of the factory bolts. I think that is the biggest factor here.
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so, how much air did you catch? ive jumped my mk2s before and never done that..
I think he broke them during removal not while driving. I don't think you could break all those bolts in a wreck and live.
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I have no idea if good or bad quality bolts were used. They were not rusted into hole of the knuckle nor were the thread crusting with rust, just a thin layer. I think being overtorqued is a good explanation of why they all snapped. One strut had a dust boot and the other didn't. The slotted nuts were both a bit chewed up so the person who worked on it last wasn't the most careful IMO.
Does anyone know the part numbers of the strut mounting bolts and nuts? The top bolt (the camber adjusting bolt) is different than the bottom bolt and should have a different part number.
This is what the Bently says about the top bolt: "ROutine camber adjustment is not normally necessary. If needed, adjustment is possible by replacing the upper strut mounting bolt with a special VW replacement bolt. This bolt, VW part no. N 903 334.01 has a slightly smaller diameter shank. Using the lower strut mounting as a pivot and the new upper bolt with its larger clearance, camber adjustment of approx +/- 1/2 a degree is possible. If greater adjustment is necessary, the smaller shank replacement bolt may also be used in the lower mounting hole, for a total adjustment range of approx +/- 1 degree "
N 903 334.01 is not a good number per dealer so the Bently has a typo in that number?
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cant help on the PN right now, but ONLY use the proper bolt. I use an airgun to install and remove those bolts and have been doing it for 16 years. I have NEVER seen what you have happen with an OEM bolt in that particular location on that particular model. The upper bolts you had were junk. the smaller shank bolt isnt really all that much smaller, but it does help. If the car is bent or other major problem, the OEM camber bolt will not compensate enough.
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I was told the gap between the strut cap and the up and down movement between the cap and strut tower while the wheel is hanging is not normal
On a MK2 it's normal.
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I was told the gap between the strut cap and the up and down movement between the cap and strut tower while the wheel is hanging is not normal
On a MK2 it's normal.
careful what you say. There is a limit and I have seen spring perches destroyed from ignored failing strut bearing/bushings...
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Interesting...
So the bolts weren't the problem that you thought was there with the strut hanging low, as the bolts were broke by you in serching for the problem.
I always thought the problem you describe is down to the top strut mounting/bearing wearing out in any event; at least that is the case on a Quantum.
All bolts broke in roughly the same place, even thoughr there are 2 styles of bolt. No nuts moved along the bolt, yet even in boat anchors, nuts usually shift off the protected thread part at least partly.
Possible Causes
I think you may have forgotten which way the nut undoes and actually tightened them off. You wouldn't be the first ;D
Did someone put 'nut lock' on the threads?
Did you use air tool to remove them? If so that could make it easier to get the direction wrong...
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cant help on the PN right now, but ONLY use the proper bolt. I use an airgun to install and remove those bolts and have been doing it for 16 years. I have NEVER seen what you have happen with an OEM bolt in that particular location on that particular model. The upper bolts you had were junk. the smaller shank bolt isnt really all that much smaller, but it does help. If the car is bent or other major problem, the OEM camber bolt will not compensate enough.
Are VW dealer bolts the only proper bolts? How about these from GermanAutoParts?
http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Suspension/308/2
You say the upper bolts were junk. Note that the bottom bolts with a full shank also snappedd in exactly the same manner. Same junk?
If you can get me the VW parts numbers for the top and bottom bolts (and nuts since I'd need them) that'd be great.
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Mark,
The nuts were turned in the correct direction to loosen- 100% certain!
It is possible there is thread lock but do you think thread lock is stronger than steel of a M12 bolt?
No air wrench. I was using a 1/2 drive ratchet with a 16" pipe for extra leverage.
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Mark,
The nuts were turned in the correct direction to loosen- 100% certain!
It is possible there is thread lock but do you think thread lock is stronger than steel of a M12 bolt?
No air wrench. I was using a 1/2 drive ratchet with a 16" pipe for extra leverage.
rattle gun would have probably broken them loose.. its the big ratchet, with the long lever on it that made them break..
impact torque breaks the rust loose, just straight, twisting torque wont loosen much rust..
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lower bolt- N 019 551 2
upper bolt-N 101 740 02
I dont think you necessarily need to buy them from the dealer.. jsut as long as they are OEM
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lower bolt- N 019 551 2
upper bolt-N 101 740 02
I dont think you necessarily need to buy them from the dealer.. jsut as long as they are OEM
Thanks for the p/n's!
Is the upper bolt a camber adjusting bolt?
1stvwparts.com has them although the lower bolt is called a screw and the upper is called a bolt. Why is that? Can you double check the p/n's?
Can you get me the p/n for the nuts also? I will need 4 of those .
SCREW [Part# N0195512]
List Price:$2.90
Your Price:$1.77
BOLT [Part# N10174002]
List Price:$3.90
Your Price:$2.38
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Well, funny thing about ze germans. Lots of times they call bolts screws. I did double check the part #s before I posted them. I can post the nuts in the morning. Keep in mind that the camber adjustment bolt is VERY similar to the other bolt. It does not have any eccentric adjustment it just has a smaller shank to allow for more movement of the spindle with respect to the strut housing. I have seen situations where two 'camber' bolts were needed on one spindle.
Its also possible that the description of the part has not been entered in congruency with what it actually is. I know the guy that runs 1stvwparts. He is a buddy of mine and he will take care of you for sure :thumbup:
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OK, I'd need the p/n for the smaller top nut also.
I figured out why the top hole in the knuckle was smaller than the bottom hole. Well, it was and wasn't!
After cleaning off the the broken top bolt with the smaller shank and looking at it with a magnifier, I noted that it had an eccentric shank (basically a cam) and tried to figure out how it works and saw that it could not work the way it was. Then I looked in the upper hole of the knuckle with a light and a magnifier and saw that there was an eccentric bushing inside! That was the missing part that made the eccentric shank work.
If the top bolt didn't break in half, the bushing would have been pulled out when the bolt was removed. Because the bolt broke in half, the bushing was left in the knuckle when the smaller shank pulled out, causing my confusion of the top hole being smaller than the bottom.
I ground down one of the broken 12 x 1.5 mm bolts to the shank and used that as a punch to drive the bushing out. I thought it was metal but closer inpection reveals it is plastic, probably nylon. It has a split in it and that makes sense, that's the easy way to put an eccentric bushing onto a captured eccentric shaft (captured by the bolt head and thread). Anyway I am glad I figured this out because it was driving me crazy.
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all 4 nuts are m12. perhaps I am not making it clear enough?
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Can you take one of the pieces of bolt with the nut on and putting in a vice, will the nuts come off? The exposed thread looks from here in pretty good condition, so it is a bit of a mystery.
The torque required on these bolts, or at least similar ones on a' Quantum' are between 48 and 52 lb ft. ONLY.
I have an ex brotherinlaw who would quite happily apply this kind of torque to an M6 valve cover bolt, and 100lbft + via a half inch drive socket set to an M10 lock nut.
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all 4 nuts are m12. perhaps I am not making it clear enough?
It's clear now! So the VW top camber adjusting bolt must be a much simpler bolt than the eccentric sleeved bolt that I broke, which looks like a much more expensive bolt. At $2 from VW, I doubt it's the same type. How does it work then? Does it have a separate washer on the nut end.
Are these bolts stretch bolts, one time use only?
The broken top bolts are marked LE 12.9
The broken bottom bolts are marked ABC 10.9
From what I found searching the web, 12.9 is the strongest metric grade made and is alloy steel, hardened and tempered. Interesting the bottom bolts are one grade lower. They should also be 12.9
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The increased strength of the top bolts is due to the fact that they are smaller in diameter. Neither bolt is a torque to yield. They can be reused multiple times.
Nut-N 903 237 04
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Can you take one of the pieces of bolt with the nut on and putting in a vice, will the nuts come off? The exposed thread looks from here in pretty good condition, so it is a bit of a mystery.
The torque required on these bolts, or at least similar ones on a' Quantum' are between 48 and 52 lb ft. ONLY.
I have an ex brotherinlaw who would quite happily apply this kind of torque to an M6 valve cover bolt, and 100lbft + via a half inch drive socket set to an M10 lock nut.
I will play with getting the nuts off the broken stud after I get my Jetta back together.
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The increased strength of the top bolts is due to the fact that they are smaller in diameter. Neither bolt is a torque to yield. They can be reused multiple times.
Nut-N 903 237 04
Thanks for the p/n. I picked up a set of the camber bolts and nuts from RapidParts, not a VW delaer but a VW Audi shop in NY. I thought only VW dealers stocked VW parts? They were 10.9 grade though. I have 2 bottom bolts a friend gave me from an 85 VW and they are marked 12.9. Seems to be a lot of variations in what grade bolts were/ are used
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Why not just get regular M12 bolts and nuts? That's what my friend did, and it still works :P
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Thanks for the p/n. I picked up a set of the camber bolts and nuts from RapidParts, not a VW delaer but a VW Audi shop in NY. I thought only VW dealers stocked VW parts? They were 10.9 grade though. I have 2 bottom bolts a friend gave me from an 85 VW and they are marked 12.9. Seems to be a lot of variations in what grade bolts were/ are used
nope, lots of independent shops also carry OEM stuff. Do you have a link to these camber bolts from RapidParts?
FWIW, the bottom bolts are used for the top also. MKIIs came from the factory with all 4 bolts being the same. The upper bolts are only to be used when a camber correction of significant change is required. This is usually to compensate for a bent suspension component..
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nope, lots of independent shops also carry OEM stuff. Do you have a link to these camber bolts from RapidParts?
FWIW, the bottom bolts are used for the top also. MKIIs came from the factory with all 4 bolts being the same. The upper bolts are only to be used when a camber correction of significant change is required. This is usually to compensate for a bent suspension component..
I do not have a link to these bolts. I gave a ride to a friend to pick up a car they did some work on and on a wim asked if they had these bolts. They had ETKA and looked up the p/n's and had them in stock. I think they are the same p/n you gave but will double check. They are bagged with the p/n's on the bag label, marked made in Netherlands. I'll take a pic and post later.
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I'd like to add that I've been wrenching on my own cars for many years and not a noob. I used to break bolts when I first started (and bruised my knuckles). I haven't broken a bolt or got bruised in a looong time.
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I'd like to add that I've been wrenching on my own cars for many years and not a noob. I used to break bolts when I first started (and bruised my knuckles). I haven't broken a bolt or got bruised in a looong time.
It would have helped solve the mystery if you DID have a long history of bolt breaking ;D
Are the nuts stuck on the threads?
According to 'KATE' the offset bolts are optional, so I suppose four offset bolts could be used in some circumstances.
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Neat, 3 page thread on 2 busted bolts. When that happens, I buy more and drive on. Glad you got it sorted out though!!
Jason
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Actually, the mystery I was referring to when I started the thread was why the broken stud won't go back into the hole that it was in. Drove me nuts. I knew that was impossible. That mystery was solved.
I didn't consider the broken bolts a mystery.
All 4 nuts are still frozen on the studs. There was /is no sign of movement between them. I think the only way to get the nuts off easily is to heat them up red hot with an oxy acetylene torch.
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Neat, 3 page thread on 2 busted bolts. When that happens, I buy more and drive on. Glad you got it sorted out though!!
Jason
lol, yea, 3 pages is a bit excessive for some broken bolts..
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I read the entire thing and loved every moment of it. The drama! The excitement! The fact I may need new bolts as well!! WEEEEEE! ;D
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I was told the gap between the strut cap and the up and down movement between the cap and strut tower while the wheel is hanging is not normal
On a MK2 it's normal.
careful what you say. There is a limit and I have seen spring perches destroyed from ignored failing strut bearing/bushings...
Sooo are you saying it's not normal for the struts to move up and down on a MK2 when you lift it up so the wheel is off the ground?
is the amount it moves what you use to determine if the bearings/bushings are bad?
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some up and down play is normal with the wheels off the ground. the limit of up/down play for me to feel comfortable with is about 20mm. More than that and I replace them. The problem that happens when there is too much play is that the bushing will start to make contact with the upper spring perch. Then when the steering wheel is being turned, the bearing is no longer turning and the spring perch starts to wear into the bushing which will ruin the spring perch. HTH
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Left one is new, right is old.
Why is the old one so much shorter? The rubber looks and feels solid. Has it been compressed with age?
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/Photo_062111_001.jpg)
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Has it been compressed with age?
Yes. that is exactly what has happened.
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Has it been compressed with age?
Yes. that is exactly what has happened.
Yet the height of the outer part is higher on the old setup, or is that an optical delusion?
I think the Quantum setup is slightly different. Does that bit have the bearing? I'll pop out and photo one I have to hand [midnight here]!
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A B2 Passat is totally different. What you are seeing is sort of an optical illusion. What is making it look taller is that the top of the buching/bearing (they are set upside down in the pic) gets pushed up as the rubber settles over time. so it (the old one) is sitting on that raised area in the pic. Hope that makes sense..
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Got the other bad strut bearing off. New one in the center, the other 2 are the collapsed old ones.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/Photo_062211_003.jpg)
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Here is the Quantum setup. Different to the Dasher that had small bolts to undo IIRC. Merely undo nut take off the metal dish and strut comes out.
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1944/imgp0960a.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/imgp0960a.jpg/)
This shows what rests under the bodywork. THe rubber atached to the bearing underneath which is clamped by the castellated nut
(http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/4474/imgp0958.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/860/imgp0958.jpg/)
This is the top cap, actually damaged I think when the castellated nut undid with the top nut...
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1894/imgp0959d.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/imgp0959d.jpg/)
Not sure if this bearing is normally viewable , but on this particular strut, the rubber mounting comes off revealing the bearing. It seems to be a press fit. This one although loose has not collapsed, in fact I see no way for this to collapse as the rubber has a metal insert. Only the bearing itself vulnerable to drying out and becoming sloppy. I greased this one as it was dry and had a little play in it. Doing so has restored it to a non binding smooth rolling item. Not using this strut at present though as itneeds the dreaded wheel bearing replacement.
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/1029/imgp0957x.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/imgp0957x.jpg/)
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Mark, I don't think that ball bearing should have come off the strut mount like that.
Back to the bolts. The ones that broke all had the threads facing the front of the car, getting hit head on with salt and the elements. They could also face the back, which will be more sheltered from the elements. I assume they faced the front so that an impact gun could be used?
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The factory faced them toward the front. I always put them back in facing rear. If you can get away with it and you understand the engineering that went into the assembly and its not going to interfere with anything, try to put all bolts back in so they point to the rear of the car. That way, should one of the nuts fall off, the inertia of the car accelerating will keep the bolt in place instead of the other way around where the bolt falls out.
Sorry for the terrible run-on sentence and horrendous grammatical mistakes.
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Here is the Quantum setup. Different to the Dasher that had small bolts to undo IIRC. Merely undo nut take off the metal dish and strut comes out.
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1944/imgp0960a.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/imgp0960a.jpg/)
This shows what rests under the bodywork. THe rubber atached to the bearing underneath which is clamped by the castellated nut
(http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/4474/imgp0958.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/860/imgp0958.jpg/)
This is the top cap, actually damaged I think when the castellated nut undid with the top nut...
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1894/imgp0959d.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/imgp0959d.jpg/)
Not sure if this bearing is normally viewable , but on this particular strut, the rubber mounting comes off revealing the bearing. It seems to be a press fit. This one although loose has not collapsed, in fact I see no way for this to collapse as the rubber has a metal insert. Only the bearing itself vulnerable to drying out and becoming sloppy. I greased this one as it was dry and had a little play in it. Doing so has restored it to a non binding smooth rolling item. Not using this strut at present though as itneeds the dreaded wheel bearing replacement.
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/1029/imgp0957x.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/imgp0957x.jpg/)
"Mark, I don't think that ball bearing should have come off the strut mount like that."
I'd tend to agree; except I went out, and pulled the other 'good' one off.
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/4282/imgp0964.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/imgp0964.jpg/)
It came of by rocking, and revealed that it could never have fitted much tighter than push fit, because of the tapered recess; the 6 or so crimp to fit points; and their corresponding marks on the bearing case, that appears to be mild steel, reinforces my line of thought.
I think the damage to the inverted 'top hat' that goes under the 19mm nut was caused by the nut not being fully tightened.
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9246/imgp0965.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/imgp0965.jpg/)
Of the two bearings I have now exposed, one has more slackness between the two halves of the bearing case, Squeezing grease between the casing with a finger has made them both smooth operating.
My only issue with these 2 struts was:
1) a dead car, and
2) a duff wheel bearing
My thinking is that there is very little room for colllapse, so I wonder if this setup could replace the Golf/Jetta stuff :-\
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well, he already did buy new parts... using plus suspension stuff is the best upgrade for a MKII. using B2 parts might not work as well as the body has a slightly different shape to it where the bushing goes. the downside to using plus suspension stuff on the MKII is that you also need to get upper spring perches to match.