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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ORCoaster on April 23, 2011, 06:56:10 pm
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On a recent 4 hour drive I had the misfortune to have not one but two bearings mass fail on me. Torn up all the races, little bits of roller bearings in between the two bearings on the spindle. All lubed heavily, not overly tight, Maybe too loose?
This is the first time I have had this sort of trouble when driving a car in the last forty years. Are there better bearings than others? The NAPA ones I put in first were Beck Arnley. I saved the outside bearing that wasn't damaged when the first inner bearing destroyed itself. I had that in the tool box when the brand new bearing went south on me 175 miles later.
Now I know I didn't do a real good check of the spindle when the problem arose and I probably could not have purchased one at 6 PM at night anyway. I will now need to be ordering one as the threads are gone on the end now from the damage of the outside bearing blowing up.
Any ideas other than lube, and torque on why a new set or any set of bearings would fail like that?
Ever drive a Rabbit with the cotter pin as the only means of securing the bearing in place? Very slow drive for the last 75 miles. But did arrive at 1:30 PM to a very worried wife.
Later DAS
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The last rear wheel bearings I bought were from autohaus--pex. The outers on both went out very shortly. I purchased the national brand from advanced and replaced them. So far no troubles. I had the exact same result as you. Not too tight, good lube, so silky smooth operating...then growled and the fun was over.
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I use FAG or SKF and fuggeddaboudit.
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I use FAG or SKF and fuggeddaboudit.
THIS!!!
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only ever used FAG, never had a premature failure in my, or a customers car.
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I use FAG or SKF and fuggeddaboudit.
Particularly for the fronts, which are a devil to replace.
Country of origin means a lot in metallurgy. The Chinese will readily admit they have a lot to learn.
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Thanks guys, Kind of what I thought. Any place other than the local parts pull place to get the spindles. Looked a bit just now not having much luck. Will pay attention to bearing maker upon purchase. Local shop generally has what I need but not sure of brand off the top of my head. Thought a couple of bearing kits would be the way to go but folks selling don't list the manufacturer of the bearings. Could always call or write
Local parts place has one, yes just one VW Caddy on the lot. Was thinking to check it out for rear parts. Maybe it has the disc brakes on it. Just grab the whole thing and hope for the best? Or deal with bearing failure on it the next weekend?
Again thanks for the names of the good ones, how about them spindles?
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timken bearings are what i use 99% of the time..
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The Pex on autohaus says SKF/Pex now...they sucked for me.
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How did you tighten them?
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timken bearings is what came on the car when I bought it. The PO didn't care for the car like he could have. Let it set after driving in water going fishing. What is with that?
Also the end cap had been hit against a rock or something hard and was dented and had a hole in it. When I took it apart that outer bearing was rusted real bad. Funny it didn't blow up on me on the 90 mile drive home. Brakes were also frozen in place on both sides. Ended up getting an entire bearing kit and two new brake cylinders. Not sure who made the bearings in the kit. But I looked in the box that was on the workbench on Saturday and noticed the inner bearing was in great shape and said Timken on it.
No word on Spindles, got to have two to make the fix. Might be at the play and pull in the rain this weekend. Oh fun, and the caddy is buried in the mud too.
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Fatmobile my man<
How did you tighten them? you asked.
All wrong I can tell you that.
I put the inner bearing in, covered it with the dust cap, flipped the drum over, inserted the outer bearing and slid it on the spindle. I slipped on the keyed washer, the nut and grabbed my socket on the end of the 18 inch breaker bar. Lights and sirens should be going off about now. Way to much torque initially from what I can gather after reading my Bentley this morning. They can be ruined by as little as 9.5 ft lbs of pressure.
I spun the wheel, and cranked down on the handle several times until the wheel was difficult to move. Then backed it off, then tightened again, backed it off and put the nut keeper and the cotter pin in place.
Da Bentley says not so tight buddy. They want the washer to be movable with a screwdriver so the nut is more or less finger tight at the end. That may explain why I was successful in driving the last 75 miles home at 45 MPH without much trouble. I had enough room to get a the nut on the stripped spindle and just pinned it in place. What else could I do? I didn't have any other washers to try and make it any tighter.
If this doesn't answer your question, blast another note and we can continue to type talk.
I don't see anyone giving me an answer as to why this would have happened. Maybe I already answered my own question. Not quality parts.
later
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I don't think the nut should be finger tight when you are done,.. but sounds like you are on the right track with tightening.
I always set mine a little tight.
I make it so twisting the screwdriver can move the washer,.. seems to work.
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it happened because you tightened them WAY too tight.. 18" breaker bar is WAY TOO MUCH.
crap, my bearings were a little too tight, (~20 ft lbs) and i noticed it after i tightened the bearings up, then shortly there after, my right rear bearing disintegrated..
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From age, cheap hub, or catastrophic failure as described above, if the hub becomes wollered out where the race should be pressed in, it will disintegrate again even if tightened 'correctly'.
So, knock the races out, and inspect carefully, or if you can move them without a tool, the hub is borked.
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Coming to the home address soon. 2 new inner and outer Timken bearing sets for about 25 bucks includes shipping. And two new Axle Stubs for 36. I threw in a new fuel line from the pump to the filter that has the banjos on it as my line is getting real short and I hope to use the extra banjo on the outlet side to monitor the pump pressure as I drive. Still chasing the elusive 65 mpgs
Thanks everyone.
I will leave the breaker bar in the tool box next time and use the hand rachet instead. Don't need to be stranded on the side of the road no more no more. The wife frets about me.
:'(
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What fat said is what I do and IIRC is what the old Bentley says. They should be just tight enough that you can move the washer under the nut with a screwdriver. I just use a pair of pliers to get the nut that tight- no need for any sort of socket or wrench.
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They should be just tight enough that you can move the washer under the nut with a screwdriver.
Yup...the Bentley is very specific on the importance of setting the rear bearing clearance this (somewhat weird) way... too tight (by this definition) and bad things will happen. ;)
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They should be just tight enough that you can move the washer under the nut with a screwdriver.
Yup...the Bentley is very specific on the importance of setting the rear bearing clearance this (somewhat weird) way... too tight (by this definition) and bad things will happen. ;)
definitely the weirdest tightening procedure ive heard of..
ive got about 10k on my new rear bearings tho, tightened the way bentley says, and they have been good to go.
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Not that I need to say this BUT:
In my defense I was 225 miles from the Bentley when the breakdown occurred. After 40 plus years of twisting a wrench or Breaker bar I simply did what I always did and got a fart experience for it.
I correctly looked up the procedure upon being stranded on the side of the road. Mostly as an effort to keep it from happening to me or anyone else again. Just looking out for #1 right?
So this is a bit of an off method of tightening a bearing and I have learned well from it. Trust that the new parts will not get the breaker bar treatment. With everything else bolted down on this car to the point of breaking the stud or nut it seems like way weird that they would go this route for the bearings.
Oh well there are other odd things with these cars that we don't complain about right?
Live and learn. DAS
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After 40 plus years of twisting a wrench or Breaker bar I simply did what I always did and got a fart experience for it.
I fart when using the breaker bar too sometimes. :-[ ;D
I do use it to overtighten them at first, seat the bearings, then back them off.
Too loose will ruin them too,.. to the point that tightening them doesn't help, they need to be replaced.
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Yeah I don't think the wheel should be allowed to move at all or the bearing is too loose. Unless ,since the axle stub is made of chocolate ;D, you can grab the top and bottom of the wheel and feel slop but skaking the front and rear feels tight. That's what mine do.......
I don't even use a ratchet, instead I go for channel locks. I don't like getting grease inside my sockets.
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I looked and my parts will come while I am off on assignment. At least the bearings will. I may get the axle stubs this weekend and dip them in chocolate :Pjust to get them ready for the bearings coming the week after. If I find any major wear on the drivers side I will assume that the same happened to the passenger side and that is what started this whole mess in the first place. Do you guys use Moly grease on the bearings? I still have a tub of standard wheel bearing grease in the shed but with all the long distance driving I do I am wondering if I could do better at reducing friction with something else.
Suggestions? no rabbitman I am not dipping them in chocolate.
Be real now.
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I use moly grease.
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I usually only do a heavy finger tight, maybe a scoche with the channel locks at most i would 10ftlbs. I have only had one fail 18yrs ago! Also i usually use molygraph( Molybdenum disulphide enriched) grease. Some folks say it thins out too much hot but couldn't prove it by me. I'm sure you already do but make sure you "pack" the bearings i have seen a few folks just slather them up real well and think that is greased!
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A cheap 10 buck plastic bearing packer does a very slick job of getting grease all the way into the rollers.... 3:20ish on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpM-iit5n-k&feature=related
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I liked the sign that you could see on the wall while he was packing the bearing...... 'Road Rage 500 Feet'
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Is that guy a carpenter doing mechanic work or a mechanic with carpenters tools? Can't say I approve of the way he set that cap in place. Where is the oversized socket or the block of wood to spread the force of the hammer? Everytime I try something like that I end up mashing up the seal and have to buy another.
What's with the gloves? Isn't the whole point of hand packing the bearings so you end up all gooey and slippery? No fun doing it his way.
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To do the rear bearings I always use some clamp grips and hold them end on like tweezers.
Tighten firmly, rotate the wheel, and then back off to the first hole for the castellated nut cover and split pin.
If there is still play beyond the minimum when holdng the wheel top and bottom, then further tightening, will likely sped up death of the bearing, as it is the stub axle that has wore.
The solution for a while at least, is to use a spring punch and LIGHTLY punch the area around where the bearing seats on the stub. This will increase the diameter of the stub.
Do not over do it or the gentle interference fit wil beome a press on fit and it will become hell to remove the brake hub next time you need to service...
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I might not have needed to buy two axle stubs if I had known the dimple trick a worn stub. Oh well. best replace them both at the same time and call it good. I needed one for sure as the threads are totally gone on the passenger side. Going to be gone most of the next two weeks on travel status. Dang and the weather is finally getting to be some sort of springlike here. Almost 60 today but sunshine bigtime. Didn't work on the car as I had landscape work to do. Free brush pick up means trim, trim, and trim some more. Everything grows like a weed here and you have to cut it back or it just goes wild.
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Got it all fixed and flying this weekend. The two new axles went on real easy. Used that danged breaker bar to get them off. Found that the drivers side bearings were wet and that they had some rollers that were pitted. So those were about ready to go as well I guess. I had a devil of a time getting a replacement jamb nut locally. I figured that the local hardware store would have had one. They stock so much metric it is crazy. But no 16 MM nut with that super fine thread. Ended up going to the local VW fix it shop and he sold me one off his shelf, complete with rounded edges and a bunch of grease on it, no extra charge.
I filled up the tank and it may be due to the slow speed I used to limp it home but I got an honest 47.5 miles per gallon. On the return to Portland trip I used just a little less than a half a tank. Now that it is rolling well I may be back to 50 MPG. I hope so.
I also replaced the thermostat and the clutch throwout bearing. So I rolls smooth, quiet and cool now. Time to look for headliner, carpet and gauges. Going to steal the local GTI console if it is still there next weekend. When it stops raining.
Thanks for all the help on this one. Oh, I did the Bentley move the washer with the screw driver adjustment this time. The hubs were cold to the touch both times I checked at the rest stops.
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Do you only travel the 26 route? or do you take hwy 30 sometimes too? what color is your caddy? surprised ive never seen you around, since you are somewhat "local" to me when in CB..
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I cruise the Portland to Coos Bay route, south of you. I-5 to either 126 or 38 to the coast then down to CB. Run a silver 1981 Rabbit with sunroof and no sound deadening. Have to make that a priority, I keep loosing the ear plugs in the washer.
I keep looking at the new VW's on the route I drive and I so want to put a bumper sticker on mine that says something like mine is the first, best and still getting better mileage than you.
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I want one of those bumper stickers too ;) Or Hybrid's eat this, near my tail pipe lol
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Oh don't get me started on the hi-birds. No brainer there. And they think they are saving the world or something. Got behind a pee us yesterday and he must have been playing with the pedal to try and see if he could hyper mile it. 67.5 then down to 64 all the way down I-5. I finally couldn't stand it any more, dropped it to 4th and powered around and up-shifted past him.
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Oh don't get me started on the hi-birds. No brainer there. And they think they are saving the world or something. Got behind a pee us yesterday and he must have been playing with the pedal to try and see if he could hyper mile it. 67.5 then down to 64 all the way down I-5. I finally couldn't stand it any more, dropped it to 4th and powered around and up-shifted past him.
no one is aware of how much pollution thats produced thru manufacturing those big ass batteries for hybrids. hell, we can drive our diesels for a long time before we put off more pollution than that battery took to make..
sure, the battery doesnt directly consume fossil fuels like our cars, but i know it took a LOAD of fossil fuels to manufacture that battery. it takes electricity (usually coal powered) and raw materials (transported from the mines by diesel) along with specialty machines for making the batteries..
sorry guys, im going to stick to my diesel burner..
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I will say the combination that holds my interest is the diesel, small say 900 cc, with an electric motor for its basic power. Keep the battery footprint down and you may just get me to look twice. Once for the basics then the real cost of doing business. How can anyone bicker with those of us driving, no recycling, our 30 year old cars and pick ups that get as good or better miles per than they think they are? Then do I ever laugh when folks question me about buying that "expensive diesel" like 30 cents a gallon on fuel that is already 4 bucks is that much more. When I ask them how many gallons they are buying for their economy car they tell me about 20, well boys that is two tanks in my zipper car and that would take me just a bit over 800 miles with a good margin of safety to the next station. General reaction= NO WAY. That is why I keep the mileage and gallons all in a book in the glove compartment. Proof. End of Discussion.