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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: lucasone on April 11, 2011, 02:00:31 pm
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Hi Guys,
Anyone with a modified TDI knows its hard to get keep the front tires from spining. Any additional traction is a good thing.
Concept1 is selling "Peloquin 80% Diff Kit TT498.080" for $165.00. It's recomended for 020 transmissions 100mm axle flange. Is that what a MKIII TDI has?
Here is some more info:
Peloquin 80% Diff Kit TT498.080
For clutch cable type 5 speed manual gearboxes. Supplied with installation tool.
This kit increases the factory 20% anti torque steer effect to 80%. The 80% Pelolok kit helps
eliminate torque steer and inside wheel spin. The 020 80% Pelolok kit can be installed
without removing the transaxle. It will also work with the Peloquin differential,
as well as the stock factory differential. This kit is for the 1984 and up 020 transmission.
Please note: This kit is recommended for 020 transaxles with 100mm CV flanges.
"The first reaction is that people really notice the difference in the steering response under power.
The car steers tighter - on the throttle the car goes toward the apex. The people who live in the snow
and the ice really love the added winter traction". This kit is great for those with a
limited budget or race classes that do not allow a full limited slip differential.
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AHU TDI's have hydraulic clutches. 02a transaxles
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02A's from what I understand are much more robust than a built 020 to begin with.. Vw smartened up when they put this bad boy trans behind a TDI. They got smarter on the 02J.. however 02A's are still better than an 020.
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But do they have any limited slip at all? I'm going to have to do this in mine eventually
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http://www.intengineering.com/Peloquin-02A-Torsen-Limited-p6302522-1-2.html
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Don't quote me but the O20, o2A, O2J and O2M all have factory limited slip diffs. The CV flange that you pull off, it has springs on the end that press against the diff gears and thats what creates the possi affect. Yeah its not much but its something. I think the stock percentage is 40%.
The 80% kit that TT offers is what I have on my Rabbit. Its great, easy to install and is noticable. The kit just adds more pressure to the springs, so more pressure to the diff gears creating more friction/LSD to total of 80%. .
The best way to get more traction is to do the Peliquin or Quafe or a spool.
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020 "limited slip" is around 20%. It's not a true lsd. Just adds preload to both sides of the diff to keep rattling down but acts like a weak lsd. None of the vw factory transaxles have an lsd as far as I am aware.
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Yes, true.
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if it acts like a lsd, it IS a lsd... lol
when the diff wants to slip one way, the spring attempts to limit the bias.
albeit a weak one, it is a lsd none the less.
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The early 020 had 2% preload, the max they came from the factory was the 20 mentioned above. I have the 80% kit and changed the cv to 100mm inner. I still fried the driver side cv as it backed the bolt out since it was too long. I got it replaced and ground almost down to the snap ring on the inner cv on that side and have no problems now. With the 100mm inners the cup is deeper and you are not supposed to have that problem. Only the 90mm inner is supposed to do that and usually on lowered vehicles. Mine is stock height. Just a warning to you if you go that route.
I had mine all winter and really didn't notice any traction impovements. It would just spin both.
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Lucas, what can you expect from summer tires in the snow? Lol I have an 81 FF in my car right now (2% lsd) and it spins the right tire on dirt.. Lol
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020 "limited slip" is around 20%. It's not a true lsd. Just adds preload to both sides of the diff to keep rattling down but acts like a weak lsd. None of the vw factory transaxles have an lsd as far as I am aware.
its not a true LSD.. the springs have the same pre-load at all times..
an LSD will sense a tire spinning, and will engage, and lock the clutches in the differential.. (thats what makes a LSD)
the VW unit is not LSD.. its a way to keep the stub axles from rattling.. it was in no way intended to be a LSD.
if you jack up one side of the car with it in neutral, you can easily spin one tire by hand.. if you have strong hands, you can twist the drive flanges opposite ways with the trans on the ground.
the differential in a VW has never limited my slip. once you got a tire spinning, it does nothing to correct it, besides keep it spinning.
(its like 10% LSD if anything.. theres no way its more than that. because it doesnt ever limit the slip)
ive driven lots of cars with LSDs (NX2000 and SRT-4 are first that come to mind) and the LSDs in those cars feel completely different, because they are ACTUAL LSDs..
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Broke VW has tested these springs that reduce rattle in all the 020's.. And they effectively provide around %20. The reason the other cars actually felt like a 'real' LSD is because their % was probably higher.. To where you wouldn't slip it under normal conditions like a stock early 020.
I think an 02A provides similar.. But its weak spot is still the same as 020's.. Just a wee bit stronger.
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I think the 02A is quite a bit stronger than the anemic 020. The O2J and the O2A have only minor differences.
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I think the 02A is quite a bit stronger than the anemic 020. The O2J and the O2A have only minor differences.
I agree, much less trouble with reverse and 5 th. I've changed a few 2nd gear syncros, and other misc. issues, but generally they are much tougher than the 020
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Broke VW has tested these springs that reduce rattle in all the 020's.. And they effectively provide around %20. The reason the other cars actually felt like a 'real' LSD is because their % was probably higher.. To where you wouldn't slip it under normal conditions like a stock early 020.
I think an 02A provides similar.. But its weak spot is still the same as 020's.. Just a wee bit stronger.
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
maybe a brand new rebuilt trans might have 20% LSD, but not anything ive ever driven..
every VW trans ive ever driven, behaved exactly the same, and they almost NEVER posi up and spin both tires, except going down the road.. lol.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
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I think the 02A is quite a bit stronger than the anemic 020. The O2J and the O2A have only minor differences.
Not wanting to thread jack, but whilst we are at it,
why is the 020 anemic and if so what is its weakest point?
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2 main points are that they added the 5th speed by adding an extra chamber onto the existing transaxle housing. If the oil level gets low, that's where it empties out of first and so when you're on the highway, without any oil, it'll cook pretty quickly.
The other thing [ this doesn't affect just VW transmissions but...], because reverse doesn't have a syncro, it often engages roughly. When bits break off one of the reverse gears, they fall to the bottom of the differential part of the case, where they can get squeezed in between the ring and pinion gears, and ruin them.
I'm sure others can join in with other comments.
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The 020 also has smaller diameter shafts than the other VW trans. Not that I have ever heard of someone snapping a gear shaft. The gears themselves are also smaller than later trans'. Most people say that the ring gear rivets are a major weak point although some of the very early 020's had very heavy rivets that are quite strong. For me, I really dislike the ass backwards flywheel/pressure plate set-up.
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Broke VW has tested these springs that reduce rattle in all the 020's.. And they effectively provide around %20. The reason the other cars actually felt like a 'real' LSD is because their % was probably higher.. To where you wouldn't slip it under normal conditions like a stock early 020.
I think an 02A provides similar.. But its weak spot is still the same as 020's.. Just a wee bit stronger.
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
maybe a brand new rebuilt trans might have 20% LSD, but not anything ive ever driven..
every VW trans ive ever driven, behaved exactly the same, and they almost NEVER posi up and spin both tires, except going down the road.. lol.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
The diff to which you refer is a locker, not a limited slip. Semantically, the words "limited sip" means just what it says....it will slip a limited amount. Most LSDs, including Gleason Torsens (i.e. quaiffe and peloquin for VWs) also will NOT lock up when you fly an inside wheel or have it on very low traction surface. They need some pre load :P(traction from the light wheel) to bias torque to the other side, but they never achieve lockup to drive the diff gears. The angle of the helix on this type determines the bias ratio, but they never achieve lockup.
Some ramp type LSD's can deal with full unload and will nearly lock (Wavetrac), but there are no full lockers (Detroit type) for VWs I have eve seen. Drag guys can use a spool, but not dreveable on pavement with turns.
While we are on it: I would love to know what 10%, 20%, 80% is suppopsed to be. 10% of WHAT????? A 200 lb/ft TDI delivers about 2,400 lb/ft to the drive axle in low gear, and don't even try to tell me a little spring on side can produce 2,000 lb/ft of torque when I can easily overcome it by hand (and I am not all that strong). About the only thing they are actually able to do is provide maybe enough preload for a torsen to maintain drive with a really lightly loaded inside wheel.
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Broke VW has tested these springs that reduce rattle in all the 020's.. And they effectively provide around %20. The reason the other cars actually felt like a 'real' LSD is because their % was probably higher.. To where you wouldn't slip it under normal conditions like a stock early 020.
I think an 02A provides similar.. But its weak spot is still the same as 020's.. Just a wee bit stronger.
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
maybe a brand new rebuilt trans might have 20% LSD, but not anything ive ever driven..
every VW trans ive ever driven, behaved exactly the same, and they almost NEVER posi up and spin both tires, except going down the road.. lol.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
The diff to which you refer is a locker, not a limited slip. Semantically, the words "limited sip" means just what it says....it will slip a limited amount. Most LSDs, including Gleason Torsens (i.e. quaiffe and peloquin for VWs) also will NOT lock up when you fly an inside wheel or have it on very low traction surface. They need some pre load :P(traction from the light wheel) to bias torque to the other side, but they never achieve lockup to drive the diff gears. The angle of the helix on this type determines the bias ratio, but they never achieve lockup.
Some ramp type LSD's can deal with full unload and will nearly lock (Wavetrac), but there are no full lockers (Detroit type) for VWs I have eve seen. Drag guys can use a spool, but not dreveable on pavement with turns.
While we are on it: I would love to know what 10%, 20%, 80% is suppopsed to be. 10% of WHAT????? A 200 lb/ft TDI delivers about 2,400 lb/ft to the drive axle in low gear, and don't even try to tell me a little spring on side can produce 2,000 lb/ft of torque when I can easily overcome it by hand (and I am not all that strong). About the only thing they are actually able to do is provide maybe enough preload for a torsen to maintain drive with a really lightly loaded inside wheel.
no, lockers go "CLUNK" when they lock up, used to have one of those in my toyota too. they click when you go around corners..
im talking about the gear type limited slip setups. i know what im talking about..
a VW has no LSD. it may have springs that act as an LSD, but there not. theres still a full set of spider gears in the differential, and thats it, nothing more, no clutches or anything like that.
a VW differential doesnt lock up harder when it senses spin.
the engineers at VW never intended for the springs and conical washers to be a LSD setup, im sure..
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In your own words:
drive a car with a REAL LSD.. it feels completely different. when they sense wheel spin, they lock.
when an 020 senses wheel spin, it does nothing.. just spins that tire faster.. theres nothing limited about the diff in a VW 020..
What I was pointing out (and you seem to be missing) is that they do NOT "lock". They need a load on one wheel to bias torque to the other, but they never lock up.
if you high side a VW, it will roast the tire with the least weight on it. trust me, my car does.. a car with a REAL LSD, will just bite harder when you high side it.
Again, NO an LSD will NOT do that....., which is why I said: "The diff to which you refer is a locker, not a limited slip."
no, lockers go "CLUNK" when they lock up, used to have one of those in my toyota too. they click when you go around corners..
There are many, many kinds of locking diffs, many of which make no noise - or don't work unless you engage them.
im talking about the gear type limited slip setups. i know what im talking about.
Then please bother to get it right - they don't lock up.
a VW has no LSD. it may have springs that act as an LSD, but there not. theres still a full set of spider gears in the differential, and thats it, nothing more, no clutches or anything like that.
I'm glad you set that straight for me. I suppose that locking diff that VW shipped in all of those T3 Syncros was really not there after all. Good to know.
a VW differential doesnt lock up harder when it senses spin.
the engineers at VW never intended for the springs and conical washers to be a LSD setup, im sure..
I think what you meant to say is that a transverse gearbox with anti-rattle springs is not an LSD.....that you have right. This is why I have such an aversion to Peloquin making such ridiculous claims for their similar 20%/80% setup.
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ok, well maybe i didnt word it just right.. no, a LSD never locks, but it definitely makes it so that the tire with the most traction, gets power instead of the tire with no traction..
and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..
my buddies car, the SRT, when you go around a corner on the power, it will kinda scratch the inside tire a little bit, then bite. same deal with the NX2000 i used to drive.. you could dump the clutch outright, and it would never spin one tire for more than about 10"...
i could be wrong, maybe ive been driving lockers this whole time, under the impression they were LSDs..
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"and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..'
As Pat Dolan explained, lockers are a lockable differential for 4x4's ,or like my Transporter, which had a syncro transaxle with LSD and locker ,switch on from the dash by vacuum
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ok, well maybe i didnt word it just right.. no, a LSD never locks, but it definitely makes it so that the tire with the most traction, gets power instead of the tire with no traction..
and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..
my buddies car, the SRT, when you go around a corner on the power, it will kinda scratch the inside tire a little bit, then bite. same deal with the NX2000 i used to drive.. you could dump the clutch outright, and it would never spin one tire for more than about 10"...
i could be wrong, maybe ive been driving lockers this whole time, under the impression they were LSDs..
There are very few locking diffs EVER installed OEM (excepting of course for a few hard core offroad machines and Type 2 syncros). What you haven't caught onto is that an LSD will only send torque to one side if there is traction on the other side. It needs the feedback of that torque to drive either the clutches or the worm gears that send torque to the loaded axle. If you lift one wheel completely off of the ground, or on most if one is in snow or on ice, there is not enough feedback from the light side to cause the diff to bias at all, and the unloaded wheel will just spin freely - delivering NO torque to the wheel with traction.
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ok, well maybe i didnt word it just right.. no, a LSD never locks, but it definitely makes it so that the tire with the most traction, gets power instead of the tire with no traction..
and are you telling me that SRT4s and NX 2000s have lockers factory, instead of a LSD? cause everywhere ive read anything, says that they are LSD..
my buddies car, the SRT, when you go around a corner on the power, it will kinda scratch the inside tire a little bit, then bite. same deal with the NX2000 i used to drive.. you could dump the clutch outright, and it would never spin one tire for more than about 10"...
i could be wrong, maybe ive been driving lockers this whole time, under the impression they were LSDs..
There are very few locking diffs EVER installed OEM (excepting of course for a few hard core offroad machines and Type 2 syncros). What you haven't caught onto is that an LSD will only send torque to one side if there is traction on the other side. It needs the feedback of that torque to drive either the clutches or the worm gears that send torque to the loaded axle. If you lift one wheel completely off of the ground, or on most if one is in snow or on ice, there is not enough feedback from the light side to cause the diff to bias at all, and the unloaded wheel will just spin freely - delivering NO torque to the wheel with traction.
im aware of this.. i know it takes load on both tires. thats why i say, it scratches a little bit, like not burning out, you can just tell its not completely hooked. probably still 80% traction.. thats why the LSDs can still lock up.
i know that both tires need load for a LSD to work..
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"i know that both tires need load for a locker to work.."
Wrong again. A "locker" is a differential which is usually activated by the driver in order the "lock" the 2 sides of said diff so that even when one wheel is off the ground or without traction, it will allow the other side to apply power to the wheel with traction. You are getting a LSD and locker mixed up.
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i was thinking LSD, but typed locker..
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i was thinking LSD, but typed locker..
LoL, yeahhhh. ;)
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Lucas, what can you expect from summer tires in the snow? Lol I have an 81 FF in my car right now (2% lsd) and it spins the right tire on dirt.. Lol
They were all seasons lol
I have a dedicated snow tire now It is all good...for next year.
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The Mk3 CTN transmission uses the early 02J peloquin/quiafe style diff and NOT the 02A. The output flanges are bolt in and not press in.
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i was thinking LSD, but typed locker..
LoL, yeahhhh. ;)
it was around 8am when i posted that, my brain was not fully awake yet, i really did mean limited slip, not locker.
ive taken apart both LSD's, and lockers..
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"G60ING:
The Mk3 CTN transmission uses the early 02J peloquin/quiafe style diff and NOT the 02A. The output flanges are bolt in and not press in."
So the mk3 CTN has a slight upgrade over other O2A's? What's diff about the diffs? LoL
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"G60ING:
The Mk3 CTN transmission uses the early 02J peloquin/quiafe style diff and NOT the 02A. The output flanges are bolt in and not press in."
So the mk3 CTN has a slight upgrade over other O2A's? What's diff about the diffs? LoL
The output flanges bolt into the diff which requires a 02J style diff. O2A diffs utilize press in output flanges.
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Ok but why use the o2j over the o2a? Is it an upgrade? And why? :D
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Like he said, the 02A flanges are a retaining clip, press in, The 02J bolt in.
I've seen way to many times, on the 02A tranys. That the axle flanges can pop out or become wobbly in the diff. I haven't seen that issue on any 02J's yet.
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Sweet, so a more robust less likely to fail axle flange on the 02J equipped 02A. I liiike it :)
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Others claim that the 02J's have weaker synchros than the 02A's, and fine-tooth sliders on the 1-2 collar, which can break easily preventing you from shifting in to 1st. Some people have had 350hp turbo cars running 02J's and never had a problem. So it's a crap shoot really.
Brendan
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"i know that both tires need load for a locker to work.."
Wrong again. A "locker" is a differential which is usually activated by the driver in order the "lock" the 2 sides of said diff so that even when one wheel is off the ground or without traction, it will allow the other side to apply power to the wheel with traction. You are getting a LSD and locker mixed up.
Hate to keep wandering OT, but being the techno-nazi, I kind of need to put this straight: Yes, there are quite a few "lockers" that you select manually (VW Syncro, ARB air lockers, Detroit E-locker), but there ARE also those that do so all on their own. I have Detroit Silent Locker on my work truck (like the old "click, click ones, but you can't hear it ratchet...but you sure as hell FEEL it!) and there was one in GMs years ago that used a centrifugal latch and these do their thing mechanically and automatically, if not delicately. Then there is the one that is stuck in the middle: Wavetrac (really an LSD with high and ADJUSTABLE bias, but with a zero torque preload to deal with lofting an inside wheel when road racing).
The ONLY thing that the 20%/80% BS from Peloquin will actually do is give some preload to MAYBE get a Gleason Torsen (i.e. Peloquin or Quaife) to deliver some torque to the fully weighted wheel when flying an inside.