VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => General => Topic started by: jasonsansfleece on April 04, 2011, 06:11:06 pm
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Is it possible to put TDI pistons in an AAZ block and use a TDI head for a M-TDI build?
I think I've read threads to that effect but cant find them.
It not to easy to buy a complete TDI engine and transmission in the USA. When you find one for sale its a thousand miles away and several thousand dollars.
Then to install it in a mk2 you have motor mounts, shifter cables and clutch control to deal with.
I'm not going to include fuel delivery or VNT control under "problems" :)
An AAZ with a 020 transmission will fit right in and heads, pistons and other parts are easier to find and ship.
So how flawed is my thinking? The 020 might be a weak link. Is the AAZ bottom end/rods comparable with an AHU/AHL bottom strength wise ?
Any insights or thoughts? Links in this site?
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Yes you are right. An AAZ block and AHU/1Z block are basically the same. The ALH is quite a bit different though. You just need the AHU (or the stronger ALH) pistons. You should probably upgrade to a tdi crank gear too if you haven't already. Then a complete AHU head, injection pump and ecu with instrument cluster and you are good to go.
Search jimfoo for a thread on making a tdi out of an AAZ. He made his into an m-tdi and avoided the electronics/immobilizer issues.
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Well, M-TDI is the route I would want to take.
An AHU head and AHL pistons.
I will check out Jimfoos post. Funny how people make hundreds of posts then just disappear. I wonder if internet forums will have twenty five year reunions?
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11359.0
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I have an AAZ based mtdi, its great. Its really pretty plug & play with the 1st gen tdi parts into the AAZ block. Search out Frank06 on tdiclub for a rebuilt AHU/1Z head & injectors. You can ask for a set with a broken electrical lead on the 3rd injector since you are talking mTDI; makes things easier & a bit cheaper.
MikeW here for Nural tdi pistons & you're almost done.
About the only strange thing I came across is the need for a 3 hole MLS gasket with the type of pistons I used & the AAZ rods.
I'd say the AAZ crank & rods are more than up to snuff for a medium tune & 20 psi of boost. Whats your power goal?
What are you planning for a pump?
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Blackdogvan, did you use AHU pistons. Any difference between them and ALH?
Would 200hp be unreasonable? With some upgraded manifolds and a VNT.
As to the pump, I have no plans at this point. I'm open to sugestions.
I do have a Giles pump on my 1.6td and no doubt he could build a fine M-TDI pump.
What about the 020 transmission? Are they up for 200hp?
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The AAZ block is not the same as the AHU/1Z block and WILL NOT work if you are planning on building an electronic TDI. You may be able to have the block machined, but I have never heard of this being done.
I understand that the OP wants mTDI, and the AAZ block will work fine for that. I am just stating this for search purposes.
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Burn, besides the crank position sensor boss on the AHU/1Z block I'm not aware of any other differences though, correct? For search purposes that post could lead people off track without some details on the differences.
@ jason I wouldn't build 200hp into any stock VE pump TDI engine without a cryo treated crank, crank girdle, h-beam rods, ARP2000 head studs, main studs, Rod studs, ceramic coated pistons not to mention the massive turbo pushing 40+psi required & a heavily modded 12mm injection pump, huge nozzles, custom clutch, axles umm basically everything. Thats full fire breathing race prepped tdi & likely not very street drivable. It'd be a fun build to watch tho. The AAZ bits will not work for that.
There is a thread on TDI club where a guy got his 1Z to 197hp/300ftlb. Crazy build.
140hp & 240ftlb would be fine though IHMO as long as you didn't try to ram boost down its throat at too low RPM.
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I forgot about the crank sensor boss. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Burn, besides the crank position sensor boss on the AHU/1Z block I'm not aware of any other differences though, correct? For search purposes that post could lead people off track without some details on the differences.
Good point and yes, AFAIK that is the only difference.
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I was hypothetically wondering the other day about what i'd have to do to go E. Could you bodge a crank position sensor onto a block?
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I was hypothetically wondering the other day about what i'd have to do to go E. Could you bodge a crank position sensor onto a block?
its gotta read off the reluctor ring on the end of the crank.. it cant just be bodged in somewhere..
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I was hypothetically wondering the other day about what i'd have to do to go E. Could you bodge a crank position sensor onto a block?
its gotta read off the reluctor ring on the end of the crank.. it cant just be bodged in somewhere..
If I can be so bold as to point out a trend in your posts without setting off a war; you could offer more info in many of them. Saying you can't do something or you don't need to do that isn't really helpful without adding why it doesn't work, how it could work or why you don't need that.
So here for example, how could a crank position sensor be added to a AAZ block? Obviously it can't just go anywhere, or could it as long as it kicks at TDC?
Or could you use the 16v euro crank position sensor/main seal? PN 036 105 189 C
(http://www.plasmabunny.com/albums/nigel/gebermontiertek6.jpg)
I wonder if you could use that to run a tach signal on a Mtdi...
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I think that someone like Mark Malone would be the one to ask. Possibly he could adapt the gasser crank signal to work with a tdi ecu but I really don't know anything about programming ecu's so maybe I'm way off base.
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I was hypothetically wondering the other day about what i'd have to do to go E. Could you bodge a crank position sensor onto a block?
its gotta read off the reluctor ring on the end of the crank.. it cant just be bodged in somewhere..
If I can be so bold as to point out a trend in your posts without setting off a war; you could offer more info in many of them. Saying you can't do something or you don't need to do that isn't really helpful without adding why it doesn't work, how it could work or why you don't need that.
So here for example, how could a crank position sensor be added to a AAZ block? Obviously it can't just go anywhere, or could it as long as it kicks at TDC?
Or could you use the 16v euro crank position sensor/main seal? PN 036 105 189 C
(http://www.plasmabunny.com/albums/nigel/gebermontiertek6.jpg)
I wonder if you could use that to run a tach signal on a Mtdi...
damn, all i said was that it needs to read from an exact place to see the reluctor ring..
im not used to all those EURO BS parts.. there not easily available in the us, and sure as hell never came stock on anything in the US.
sorry, i was taught to ask questions.. and leaving an answer kinda vague, that prompts people to ask questions, and dig deeper than they would if someone just layed it out for them.
whatever tho, if you dont like my posts, you should ignore them..
and rest assured, im calm when typing this, no hard feelings.
its basically pointless to be arguing about a crank sensor tho.. i doubt someone is going to build a FULL TDI out of an AAZ.. only ones ive seen, were turned into mechanical.
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Mechanical was the OP's intent.
Setting power goals:
Short of being a mechanical engineer, or having the experience of several tested builds how do you know where you are going?
I have some idea of what I would like to do but what that amounts to? calculable? put it on a dyno and see?
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I built my mtdi with an aaz block because that's what I had lying around. I first built it with a k14 turbo and power was okay. When I upgraded to a gt1749va turbo and intercooler power pretty much doubled. I used the complete aaz bottom end, installed a tdi crank gear, and installed tdi pistons. I then found an ahu head, valve cover, injectors, injector lines and delivery valves. The injection pump was also from an aaz with 11mm head and tdi camplate along with some other mods.
Power was amazing at a safe 20 psi with minimal smoke. I would definitely build another mtdi out of an aaz block again. As far as power goals I'd say 150-170 hp and 250ftlb of torque is totally reasonable.
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Which version of TDI piston did you use?
And you used stock AAZ rods?
Brendan
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I cheaped out and used prothe alh pistons on the aaz rods. The only issue I ran into was the top ring is a pinch higher on the alh pistons compared to the aaz pistons. I was worried of the top ring braking when it would hit the ring grove in the cylinder so instead of boring to the next size I cheated and sanded the ring groove smooth in the top of the bore and lightly honed the cylinders. Worked out really well and kept costs down in the end. I would recommend used pistons with new rings instead of prothe pistons if your on a budget. That's what I would do if I was to do it again.
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It seems quite feasible to build a m-tdi out of an azz.
How about the pump?
There is Giles of course but how about building your own and getting it to work properly?
A tdi head on a azz pump?
A Cummins 4bt pump?
Are there any pump build threads here or elsewere?
Ive done some searching here. A lot of older links are "404 not found" Is this info thats lost due to some system failure?
Thats a lot of question marks
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It seems quite feasible to build a m-tdi out of an azz.
How about the pump?
There is Giles of course but how about building your own and getting it to work properly?
A tdi head on a azz pump?
A Cummins 4bt pump?
Are there any pump build threads here or elsewere?
Ive done some searching here. A lot of older links are "404 not found" Is this info thats lost due to some system failure?
Thats a lot of question marks
The aaz pump will run the mtdi setup. It will start and idle well with an unmodified aaz pump but power is not great. To get the full potential out of the mtdi the aaz pump can be modified to work very well. There is an excellent write up on building your own mtdi pump in the faq section. The thread is now on page 2 of the fag section. I would add a link here if I knew how. Pay close attention to username Hey's posts as he describes in great detail of what needs to be done to build an awesome pump. Here is how I see it;
-You can install a tdi head and rotor assembly to an aaz pump and run your mtdi reasonably well.
-Add a tdi camplate and things get better.
-Modify the control lever for extra travel and WOW! Huge difference!
-Add the top from a 1.6td pump to simplify the fuel lever spring setup and a full functioning lda and now you have excellent smoke control and gives you a power band similar to a two stroke dirt bike.
-The timing setup on the aaz works well on an mtdi with very little adjustment.
Cummins 4bt pump;
-I'm not sure what is involved as far as lining up the timing belt pulley.
-Install the top from a 1.6td pump with caged governor spring and your done.
Or spend some money and get Giles to build you one.
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Thanks 410
Did not think to look in the FAQ. Will read it tonight.
Did speak to Giles, he said he bores out an AZZ pump for a larger shaft (shaft failure due to loads involved pumping a large head?)
Anyway,
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Thanks 410
Did not think to look in the FAQ. Will read it tonight.
Did speak to Giles, he said he bores out an AZZ pump for a larger shaft (shaft failure due to loads involved pumping a large head?)
Anyway,
plunger shaft or pump input shaft?
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Giles bores out the pump for the larger 20mm input shaft. There are lots of mtdi pumps running the smaller 17mm shaft which is what I did.
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Giles bores out the pump for the larger 20mm input shaft. There are lots of mtdi pumps running the smaller 17mm shaft which is what I did.
thats what i figured..
has anyone actually had a 17mm shaft fail on them?!
that would be a sight to see..
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has anyone actually had a 17mm shaft fail on them?!
that would be a sight to see..
Yes, quite a few times actually... I mean I have seen it
It is a sight :o
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has anyone actually had a 17mm shaft fail on them?!
that would be a sight to see..
Yes, quite a few times actually... I mean I have seen it
It is a sight :o
I was under the impression it was "ok" with a 10mm head but pushing your luck with 11mm. Tintin's pumps are usually 17mm IIRC.
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I think there are a lot more factors involved then just the size of the H&R, mainly how hard is that H&R working. You can crank up a 10mm to put out more fuel then a mild 11mm pump.