VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: wdkingery on April 01, 2011, 05:02:15 pm
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ok guys so i've moved forward a bit on my jetta.. only a bit.
chased down the brakes.. needed all new everything; only thing it didn't get was that funky load sensing proportioning valve (which i'm sure will crap out now that i've done all but the lines) turns out it was a bent brake pad causing the soft pedal??
anyway,
i've failed state safety inspection for a few rotted floor pans and a FUEL LEAK. and you know where it's leakin .. tween the head and the body of the IP. i'm headed out to check the compression here in just a second, and assuming that's good (PLEASE GOD LET THIS BE ONE THING I WIN ON THIS CAR) i'm fixin to buy a reman unit. the thing doesn't run well anyway.
so i've found that thedieselstore.com has an IP for 414 plus around $25 shipped? seems pretty good anyone know about why i shouldn't do that or a better place to find one? i've heard of the giles pumps but ... at least another $300 is scaring me off.
what about fuel injectors? i've found this guy www.hansdieselparts.com but a local guy said don't buy nothin from him cause he's a hack; bought an IP from him and had to send 2 out and neither worked .. ended up just being a goose chase. (he does offer rebuilt pumps for like $280!) but he's got fuel injectors for seemingly cheap.. sayin to put mercedes in as an "upgrade" ...?? $55 for all four. http://www.hansdieselparts.com/DN0SD265MercedesNozle.htm
anyone know where to get the injectors? or should i? if i can get them for $55 i'm in; if they are $55 a piece i'll .. probably just die
any help would be great
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hans diesel, AKA Prothe, sells JUNK..
if you want your injection pump to work, dont buy one from him..
all of his items are less than superb quality..
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reseal the Ip on the car, an hour or two and shes good to go for a few more years.. cost $50.
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There had been some decent feedback about prothes $25 injectors in the past. But a member here just ordered a set ... bad joke.
Real goofy parts
You don't want or need MBenz nozzles in a stock VW engine.
For $55 - all you get are the 4 nozzles.
Not 4 complete injectors.
Can still get new genuine Bosch / VW nozzles for about $15 each.
The o-ring/seal where your inj pump is leaking is $3-5.
You can replace it on the car if you are a good smart wrench.
A whole kit is about $20
Don't think i've ever heard of the dieselstore.com
Might be another one of Prothes websites.
He has about 7-10 dotcoms
500 psi per cylinder is like new
400 is decent to drive
300 is weak and dying
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ok so hans is PROTHE! i have seen all the bad stuff about prothe but i didn't know he was hans. now i too have a throw down on hans. i got to the second cylinder in the compression test tonight and the $20 compression gauge i got from him broke (puke) it won't release the pressure when you push the little button.
i need to change the title of this thread to "the jetta is NOT still alive" :-[
the compression test did not go well. i got 200 psi on three cylinders? 400 on one! yay! almost passing! ::)
so i did a valve clearance check and there could be some hope.. not even the smallest blade on the autozone special would go thru. spec is like .. at least .2mm; i even couldn't get the .038mm to go under but one lobe (the exhaust on the 400 psi cylinder)
ALSO. ugh this made me sick. the injectors were pure hell to get out. they broke loose, turned a half turn cleanly, and then DID NOT WANNA COME OUT. i was quite positive i destroyed the threads on the head. i sprayed them down with PB Blaster, and turned them back and forth but ... to no avail. it did help, but .. not near what i needed. well, i did get the compression gauge fitting to pull 400psi on the one cylinder so.. maybe the threads aren't gone after all.
finally, here's a photo of each hole.. what's wrong with the first one? i guess the injector is dead?
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4155/dscn4935k.jpg)
By wdkingery (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wdkingery) at 2011-04-01
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1876/dscn4934h.jpg)
By wdkingery (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wdkingery) at 2011-04-01
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1564/dscn4933p.jpg)
By wdkingery (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wdkingery) at 2011-04-01
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9905/dscn4932.jpg)
By wdkingery (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wdkingery) at 2011-04-01
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Wow, that hole has issues!......My guess is the injector heatshield leaked and exhaust gasses/unburnt fuel got by and hardened. Not sure what to clean it with but make sure you get it good, also the heatshield seat needs to be flat.
I'd fix the bad valve clearance before worrying too much.
Awhile back a guy brought me a fourwheeler to fix and it would start hard and would NOT idle at all until warm so I messed around forever checking little things, compression was less than 100 psi and should've been 170ish.
Finally I checked valves clearance, one of them (can't 'member which valve) was tight, it took a good half a turn on the rocker screw to loosen it. After that it started perfect, idled perfect and "might" have had more power too.
Just did a check on thedieselstore, the phone # is the same as midwest fuel injection.
I bought a rebuilt injector pump from them in March '07, by October '07 after only 12,000 miles the input shaft bushings were shot and the t-belt was starting to hang off the IP pulley a bit so I sent it back "under warranty".
They thought I'd tightened the belt too much so I had to pay $95 (after I complained and got it lowered) and got it fixed. That time the bushings lasted a little over a year after which I changed them myself. The pump is still going about 30,000 miles later.
Actually, here's the thread from that problem: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=10743.0
My opinion of them is that the have good customer service and are pretty nice to deal with but the quality of their work is not very good. My rabbit ran good with their pump though.......
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aww come'on! i thought we had a winner here with mwfi/thedieselstore! i was willin to swallow the $414 (assumin i make it thru tomorrow's valve adjustments and bring up a good compression test)
so i guess i am now down to:
is www.thedieselstore.com the way to go?
any anyone passin by cares to pass judgment on that #1 cylinder hole would be helpful, as ik hep geen idee what's going on there..
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Do you know of anywhere or anyone nearby who can reseal it? Do some searches about rebuilding 'em, you might decide it's something you can do yourself. Just take lots (LOTS) of pictures of everything.
There's a good chance fixing the valve clearance will fix the running problem. If the threads in that hole look good after you clean it and the injector screws in good then use it.
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Call around to places that service diesel fuel injection systems... There should be one somewhere near you, check the phone book, google, whatever. You might find it's cheaper to have them fix your pump or and rebuild/test your injectors than to buy another one.
They are going to be geared towards big trucks and heavy equipment but that shouldn't matter, it's all Bosch stuff in a lot of things, my pickup truck, for example, has the same pump as my VW... well, almost the same.
My VW runs noticeably better since the last valve adjustment and it was only like .002". off.
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Baja, have a 1st Gen? I wish I never got rid of mine...
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Yeah, I bought it last summer- 1992 4x4, LE extra cab, 5 speed, long bed... I like it and it's served me well so far.
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If you want to liven it up a bit, let me know. There is a website just like this one with some really knowledgeable people.
1stgen.org
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I had a TD motor that had the same issue with the injectors. One heat-shield was completely missing, and 2 of the injectors were so badly coked, that I really had to work them back and forth to get them out. In the end, I had to chase the threads with a bottom-tap to clean up the holes, and one was still a bit less-tahn-ideal, though the injectors still threaded and torqued in there oK.
My guess is that your low compression on some cylinders is likely due to carbon buildup on the rings. If you let those cylinders (and or all of them) soak in a bath of kerosene for about 2-3 weeks (keep topping it off, because it will bleed into the pan). Then, after three weeks, blow it out by cranking the car with the injectors out. Finally, drain the oil and put in fresh oil and filter. I'm willing to bet your compression numbers come up the "drivable" range.
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I had a TD motor that had the same issue with the injectors. One heat-shield was completely missing, and 2 of the injectors were so badly coked, that I really had to work them back and forth to get them out. In the end, I had to chase the threads with a bottom-tap to clean up the holes, and one was still a bit less-tahn-ideal, though the injectors still threaded and torqued in there oK.
My guess is that your low compression on some cylinders is likely due to carbon buildup on the rings. If you let those cylinders (and or all of them) soak in a bath of kerosene for about 2-3 weeks (keep topping it off, because it will bleed into the pan). Then, after three weeks, blow it out by cranking the car with the injectors out. Finally, drain the oil and put in fresh oil and filter. I'm willing to bet your compression numbers come up the "drivable" range.
the first flippin valuable comment all day.
seems like a plan, altho it's a 1 month long plan. :(
moreover, after i did the compression check, and a valve clearance check, and changing the valve clearances as close as possible (shim stock was limited, and god were the clearances bad,) now the damn thing won't start. i guess i ran the pump dry when i disconnected the fuel lines.
any input on that?
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Yeah, connect the fuel lines, lol, gotta bleed the air out of the system.
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well, pouring ATF down the "out" banjo bolt effectively does nothing.. :( i wore the battery down getting nothing done.
i pushed a funnel down in that little hole, and it slowly ate a small amount of ATF.. i cracked a few metal fuel lines, and cranked and cranked. not a drop of ATF ever came out.
i even poured ATF down one fuel injector hole. didn't even attempt a fire.
priming IP FAIL
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I like to use an air driven brake bleeder attached to an extra in bolt attached to the outside of the pump to get fuel pulled through the pump after its been run dry. Then you can hook things back up and leave the hard lines cracked, crank it over until it starts to come out, tighten, then get inside and try and get it to start. I just did this the other day again and once the car would stay running without throttle at the pedal, it then seems to take a few minutes to warm up and purge the last bits of air.
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Fill the IP from the "OUT" bolt. Then, send external power to the fuel stop solenoid (the ONLY wire going to the pump). If you run a wire with alligator clips to the stop solenoid from the positive terminal, you should hear it click. If so, you're on the right track.
Next, make sure all the GPs are working.
Last thing, crack the unions on the injectors and crank it until fuel comes out. Even if the vanes are stuck on your pump, if the pump is full, it will send fuel to the injectors. Once you see the dribble of fuel from the lines, refill the pump (via the OUT bolt) and try to fire it off. If the GPs are good, it will fire, even with low compression on 1 or 2 cylinders. If it runs and then dies, you can bet the vanes on your feed pump (internal to the IP) are stuck from sitting. The pump will need to be torn down, cleaned, freed up, and resealed.
Blasty-blast.
P.S. Don't dog the kerosene soak. It works wonders. If even for a week, and crank the motor over by hand (so as not to blow out all the juices), and refill whenever you do. Your numbers should improve, ESPECIALLY given how nasty those injectors holes look.
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hey i wasn't knockin the kerosene idea! it was the first real response i seemed to have had.
moving on: i got the pig to start, had to hand feed her on a baby bottle for now (as i intend to replace the pump to pass inspection anyway) yay for me! i'm beginnin to think the compression gauge i bought from PROTHE was bad to begin with, as the little piece i bought from him to screw into the head in place of the injector actually pushed thru one of my heat shields, and that was on the only cylinder i got to come up to spec PSI.. AND the pressure release button broke on the second use of the durn thing so .. i'm going to just say the gauge is bad and play like i have real compression (hey it did start!)
where can i get new injector heat shields? these damn things are less than five bucks, but by the time you hit checkout, you're in the thing for over $20 off the internet, and my local autozone or advance (or even VW dealer) isn't coming back with anything.
ideas?
and check out the ugliness i'm calling a floor pan (puke) :'(
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2112/dscn4937d.jpg)
By wdkingery (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wdkingery) at 2011-04-03
it's the ones like around this rail that i'm concerned with how i'll fix:
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1285/dscn4939.jpg)
By wdkingery (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wdkingery) at 2011-04-03
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If you want to liven it up a bit, let me know. There is a website just like this one with some really knowledgeable people.
1stgen.org
Trust me, if it exists on the internet, odds are I know about it. ;) I post on there and cumminsforum.com with the handle greaseyote. I prefer the latter because it seems to get more replies, though maybe not as good... My plans include fixing all the minor things wrong with the truck and dumping the Getrag trans for a NV4500 unit. It's not the fastest vehicle on the road, but it's goes down the road just fine, it gets the job done and doesn't use a whole lot of fuel. I bought it to haul things around, impress people. So I'm pretty satisfied with it as is... a few performance ideas are in the works, mostly to the exhaust system but nothing too far from stock.
Sorry to hijack this thread btw.
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Well, i pop riveted the floors with new sheet metal, ordered and installed a new pump from www.thedieselstore.com ; i paid $430 shipped, and they want my old core.
i did the valve lash as best i could with what limited shims were available.
i played hell gettin it to start, but it did.
it almost runs worse than it did before :-[
lots of white smoke. harder to get started now. it's like she liked her sad almost-no valve clearances from before. likes the timing advance. found one injector loose? got it tightened back up, it came back loose, i put the hero on it, and it appears to be staying.. it's the one that had the dirty hole from the initial compression test. i've got the pump set at almost 1.00 mm; like .97. runs ok at times, likes to misfire. remove the valve cover tube, you get slight smoke.
but how did it get worse?? it's obviously got one cylinder that isn't doing so well. battery has decided 2 pump primes were more than she could deal with.
forgot to shut the hood on the initial take off and almost lost my new windshield. did mangle the hood to hell; was even so lucky it left paint on the windshield but managed not to bust it (thank god for something going wrong-but-not-a-complete-loss-like-every-other-thing)
the one fuel injector that i had to tighten the @#%! out of is also apparently noisy. you can even feel the noise in the fuel injector line.. like it's tryin too hard. wouldn't it be a big white prayer from above if ya'll told me what that problem was and it went to runnin right???
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Remind us again if you had the injectors rebuilt?
Pumps can wear in unison with the injectors. I'd get them rebuilt, or rebuild them myself. You will need to check the pop pressures though.
Did we ever get compression numbers?
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no, no rebuild on the injectors. the injectors were TOUGH AS NAILS to get out, so i think they were 26 years old.
compression... is a sore subject at this point. i got a gauge from prothe/hans .. and it broke on the second use. it wouldn't release cylinder pressure. and it pushed thru one heat shield. so i'm not sure if i ever got it tight. but 200/200/405/200 is about what i pulled with it.
i'm going to hopefully snake some injectors off a diesel in the junkyard tomorrow. and a starter as i can see i'm going to need one.
i read the vincewaldron.com on rebuilding them, but as far as calibrating them or pop testing them .. i'm not really having that ability so .. i'm not sure what to do there
the durn thing didn't smoke white when i started this ..... rebuild .... so after the pump, now it does smoke white. i have to prove to the court that it passes safety inspection (thanks school cop!) on wednesday, so i needed to get an IP because it was leaking fuel to pass .. so i know i kind of have the cart infront of the horse on this rebuild, but i didn't have time to re-ring the pistons before court, with the floors and the fuel leak present.
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i'm going to hopefully snake some injectors off a diesel in the junkyard tomorrow. and a starter as i can see i'm going to need one.
i read the vincewaldron.com on rebuilding them, but as far as calibrating them or pop testing them .. i'm not really having that ability so .. i'm not sure what to do there
the durn thing didn't smoke white when i started this ..... rebuild .... so after the pump, now it does smoke white. i have to prove to the court that it passes safety inspection (thanks school cop!) on wednesday
Sounds like good things to try on the JYard parts.
If you wind up needing to refresh the injectors as per VWaldon write up - just go with it and don't worry for now about bench testing them.
If the white smoke smells like raw diesel fuel - you've got 1 or more cylinders not performing combustion. If you loosen the top nut on the injectors one at a time as it runs - its like pulling a spark plug wire off a gasser. It will show you which one(s) are the problem.
Short time frame on the court deal.
OucH !
Maybe they can grant a continuance / prolongment ?
Good Luck !
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you know i feel like the air should have purged i drove this thing for an hour.
today we junkyard, i'll let you know what i come back with!
thanks guys!
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so the junkyard values are in .. dismal.
found a damn near brand new MKI alternator ... plug was wrong. had to return it
got the four injectors and was able to steal a few valve shims.. yay for shim stock!
drivin home my radiator busted (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD)
will an MKI radiator fit in an MKII? can i make it work; i went back for the radiator, but was runnin out of time so i haven't seen if it will work.
the new injector made some difference on the smoke, but i dind't make it far enough to notice how much difference, and it was still misfiring. :-[
anyone know of a good place to get injector nozzles? or do i have to replace that? can i just do the vince waldron on the injectors and be good? and he doesn't say about adjusting the pop values.. being they are 26+ years old, do i need to add or remove any shims?
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What state - or country - are you in ?
If you're in the usa - eGermanparts.com is the only place left i know of that hasn't double/tripled the price of new Bosch nozzles.
About $15 each.
If you recondition your nozzles - and put everything back identical - they should be close enough to be fine. If you put New Nozzles - most times the pop pressure changes and needs calibration. Its all a roll of the dice. If you want the pop pressure tested - take them to a fuel shop afterwards. You can't test/calibrate/shim them properly yourself without special equipment.
Mk2 radiators are a lot wider across than Mk1.
You might could frankenstein one into place for tempo use.
If you have a diesel with factory A/C - you'll have to source a radiator from a diesel A/C car.
Non A/C i think you can use any kind of gasser radiator.
Prothe sells some new ones from like $35- up.
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hahahaha prothe sells them... mmhmm
ok! the diesel radiator is longer, and bigger, but that's cause it's going to get more heat from the A/C.. which i just removed. so i'm confident that the new, smaller, frankenstein'ed in radiator will be fine.
on to the jetta!
IT RUNS FINE! turns out the dial indicator read in INCHES, and not in MILLIMETERS!
so, not that ya'll care, but the one liner for the next guy with this problem is:
IF YOU HAD A BAD PUMP, PUT IN A NEW ONE, AND IT'S SMOKING WHITE LIKE HELL.. IT'S MAJORLY RETARDED, AND SO ARE YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE READING THE GAUGE WRONG!
new cause for major white smoke/misfire: massively retarded pump timing
major thanks to Quantum TD, and especially Vince Waldron for his writeups at vincewaldron.com
now for the glorifying rattle can paint job i've been waiting to apply
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Lmfao. Awesome Saga!
Glad you got it all sorted out :)
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Lmfao. Awesome Saga!
Glad you got it all sorted out :)
hahahaha OMG dude if you read the entire saga from beginning to end it's a real tragedy! first i bent a brake pad and had low brakes that gave me the run around ... then the pump wouldn't time cause i was too dumb to work a dial indicator.. next thing up is going to be my alternator is giving me a fit .. it'll be some retardedness.. but the good news is i got FOURTY THREE miles per gallon on the way to school today! woot woot! just what i got in this mess over!
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The difference between the radiators is the upper outlet on the diesel one points towards the left about 30 degrees to clear the altenator (so you can have that long multi-curved upper hose). I bought (and was stuck with) a gasser rad-the outlet points straight back directly into the alt.-and 2" away. I ended up cutting a 90* bend out of a hose CRAZY short-went to a piece of copper pipe to another hose. It rubs on the alt. (no choice) I got it padded the best I can. I got 10k on it like this-but i keep a close eye on it. I plan on getting a diesel rad + upper hose when i get around to putting in my TD motor.
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If you need a radiator, I've got a couple that I'd happily unload pretty cheap. 2 For one. Both tested good.
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yes franken the straight back radiator in was a chore at best.. it does rub the alt. infact i just threw it in there, giving it room to wiggle so it could get away from the alt.
If you need a radiator, I've got a couple that I'd happily unload pretty cheap. 2 For one. Both tested good.
yeah i'll take one if you got it! shippin to 23838?
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Like sdwarf and i were saying ...
If your car was factory A/C and factory Diesel - the accessory arrangement puts the alternator right at the radiator.
Even if you deleted the a/c compressor and all other things in relation to the a/c and never intend to use it again - your alternator location will still be the limiting factor.
UNLESS you get ahold of the bracketry from a Non-A/C diesel.
It puts the alternator down low - sort of where the a/c compressor would be. Then you could use a gasser mk2 radiator, or franken in any mk1 radiator no probo. A new/correct or modified top hose would prob be required.
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Baron i just threw the damn thing over in there.. there's nothing holding it still but a few zip ties that thing ain't going no where. now it doesn't touch the alternator at all! but the mk1 was a dastardly thing in relation to the alternator.
i did cut out the condenser for the A/C and would like to can that compressor soon tho