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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: PAVW on March 19, 2011, 05:47:24 pm
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Hey, want to bounce something off you guys. Got a 80 Rabbit 1.5L . Been sitting for a few years and no Im trying to get it running. Drained all the fuel, replaced the fuel filter, replaced the tbelt, and used a vacuum pump to bring the fuel back into the fuel pump. Car wont start. Bleeding the injector lines at the injectors, and I have fuel at cyl 2 and cyl 4. No fuel at #1 and #3. 2 and 4 are the lower lines on the manifold, and 1 and 3 are the higher lines on the pump manifold. My question is if the pump front main shaft seal is leaking ( its leaking pretty good, a steady drip) will it cause the pump to not prime enough to get fuel to those lines on the upper part of the pump manifold? Or could there be a stuck vane or something in the pump itself? What say you?
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It could be possible that the leaking seal is allowing some air to be sucked in the pump and causing you some grief.. Are you trying to run it off the tank, or a separate container of fuel??
Although not a permanent fix, some have filled the pump with auto trans fluid and left it sit for a day and it'll swell the seal and stop the leak for a while.. This will also sometimes help free up stuck vanes in the lift pump portion was well..
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When I put the fuel filter in I filled it half way with ATF. Yes Im running it from the tank, just seems weird that im getting fuelk to the 2 injectors and not the others. I think Im going to try to pull it behind a car tomorrow and see what I can come up with.
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99 to 1 says your vanes are stuck on the feed pump inside the injection pump. ANY amount of setting will make them stick. If they're stuck, you won't be able to pull fuel from the tank, and you won't get dynamic pressure advance out of the pump. Time to tear the pump down and reseal it. It will only cost you about $30 in parts to do the job. Total rebuild time should be about 2-4 hours with the right tools (that you'll need to make yourself).
Have fun!
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Right behind the mainshaft seal,
it a pathway to the front of the pump.
If fuel is leaking out of that seal,
and the pump is pulling fuel from the tank.
The harder it is for the pump to pull fuel;
the more likely air is going to be puled it past the seal.
What's happening at the injectors isn't near as important as what's happening to the fuel leaving the pump, headign back to the tank.
If it's pulling in air, it will probably be spitting air/foam back toward the tank.
Get a clear line on your pump output.
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OK, I think I may try to swap out the seal first and retry. I know I need to get clear lines, it will help. I did pull the return banjo out and crank it and i could see fuel in there about 3/4 of the way down and then when cranking it would rise, slowly with air bubbles, the sink right back down when I stopped.
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Well, I decided to pull the pump out and go through it and make sure everything is ok. I checked the pump shaft for play and there is a bit but I think it might be normal or OK.. Doesnt seem like a lot. Also where do you guys get your seal kits?
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What part of PA are you in?? I've gotten them from my local parts guy, or from one of the somewhat closeby diesel shops.. There also out there on ebay, but you will want to be wary of the quality of stuff you are getting... There's some real cheapo seal kits out there.. I've used a few and have been ok, but others have had problems.. If you can find genuine Bosch seals you'll be best off...
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Chester County, PA. Yea I wouldnt put anything else other than bosch gaskets. I saw a set on Ebay from "sam the diesel man". He say's his kits are Bosch....
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Sams kits are genuine Bosch.
That kit (dgk 126) doesn't come with the front seal supplied.
The front seal he supplies is Zexel branded. Made in Japan.
It does say Bosch Corporation Tokyo 150-8360.
So it might be Bosch ... idunno.
But it seems good quality to me.
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I did get the kit and went through the pump. Everything looked ok, no stuck vanes, no gum, nothing. I probobly could have just put the front seal on it and called it a day! The front seal looked that came with the kit looked fine. It didnt look cheap and it was a Zexel. Im going to install the pump tomorrow and give it another try. Man I hope I get it running tomorrow!
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It's gonna be a good thing that you did all the seals.. Usually when one is leaking the others aren;t too far behind.. And there's nothing more annoying than having to pull the pump 3 times to fix leaks.. ::)
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Well, I did reseal it and reinstalled it. Cant get the pump to disperse fuel from the output ports. Bone dry. If I disconnect the return line and crank it then I get fuel right away, a clear stream. I removed the shut off valve and tested it and it works as it should. I even cranked it over while the valve was out and nothing. I think im going to pull the top cover off of the pump and recheck everything. I feel like I may have messed up the distributor piston. I wonder if its locked in to the cam plate. Worst part about it is, my Rabbit has dealer installed A/C which is a huge pain to remove the pump again!!!!
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Before you take it back off the car, try it one time with the injector lines all hooked up to the pump. But leave the caps loose at the injectors.
Seems like i read once that some pumps won't function right with just open air delivery valves. Worth a try maybe.
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Yep, did that as well. I even towed the car a few miles with the injector nuts loose to bleed it out. No luck. Tonight I pulled the top cover off of the pump and and turned it over to see if anything wasnt turning. Everything is turning, the delivery piston is turning and moving in and out of the distributor manifold. I wonder if the delivery piston is clogged? I know I didnt check to see if it has flow through it. I pulled the pump off and will disassemble it agin and check. Hopefully I can open the pump with out destroying th orings.
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Do you have the max fuel screw turned in?
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The one on the top cover facing the back of the pump? No I havent. How far is it supposed to be in? I did pull the pump back apart and everything seemed where its supposed to go. I will reassemble it again and try to turn it with a airtool or something to see if I can bench test it and get fuel out of the output ports before putting back on the car.
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There is a set screw (threaded rod with locking nut) on both sides of the top cover - that have to be removed for access to get all the bolts out of the top cover. One is idle, one is max throttle limit.
The other short screw with a locking nut - on the backside of the cover - that is the fuel limiting adjustment (smoke screw). You wouldn't have needed to mess with it. Hopefully you did not.
One other possibility is you might have misaligned the splined throttle shaft and splined throttle lever. That is a sensitive alignment. Some are not aware that there are alignment marks until AFTER they have disassembled them.
Let us know if you think you might have messed with the smoke screw or might have missed seeing the throttle alignment marks.
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I did take note of the marks on the linkage. I took a picture of them and then reassembled it as it was. It seems like I have full travel of movement with the linkage after assembly. I did not remove the "smoke" screw. I did not move the other idle and WOT screws either.
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Okay sounds like you're good on all that.
All my pumps so far have to have the idle and limit screws removed first.
I haven't torn down any of the earlier type pumps yet.
Guess they don't need that done first.
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I have a hellofa time putting the top back on if i don't back the max fuel screw out.
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Yea I dont have to touch the screws to get the cover off. If the pump is pumping fuel out the return ok, but not making pressure out the manifold, could it be the piston clearance in the manufold? Also when I have the lines off of the manifold I shold see fuel coming out of the line ports when turning, right? I heard it will look like a machine gun!
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Yep, did that as well. I even towed the car a few miles with the injector nuts loose to bleed it out. No luck. Tonight I pulled the top cover off of the pump and and turned it over to see if anything wasnt turning. Everything is turning, the delivery piston is turning and moving in and out of the distributor manifold. I wonder if the delivery piston is clogged? I know I didnt check to see if it has flow through it. I pulled the pump off and will disassemble it agin and check. Hopefully I can open the pump with out destroying th orings.
if you open the pump, it will need new o-rings unless the ones in it arent that old..
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I replaced all the orings the first time I pulled the pump. I think (hope) they will be fine when I reassemble it.
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Are you holding it floored while cranking?
You can have plenty of fuel flowing back to the tank,.. but if the max fuel screw isn't turned in,.. or the lever is set on wrong;
there won't be any fuel coming out the ports.
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Yes, I would floor it. I took a picture of the lever before I took it off. The way the mark was indexed on the throttle shaft, it would only go one way and still have proper movement. if that makes sense. I just finished putting the pump back together today and will try to bench test it tomorrow. Hopefully I will see some diffrent results. No where should the max fuel screw be. Shouldnt there be some sort of fuel coming out of the pump regardless of the max fuel screw is at?
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I've never been into the style pump you have.
But when you take the fuel solenoid out of the ones i frequent -
there is a spring, a tube, and an o-ring.
If yours is like that,
take out the spring and the tube - then put the solenoid back onto the pump.
I'd want the solenoid to be "full-on" without doubt during the bench testing. To eliminate it being the malfunction.
If you leave the solenoid out / hole wide open - you might be sucking air/blowing wind through that port.
Good luck on good result
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If I were you I would take the car out for a drag with it all put back together. Even if you have to tow it a couple of miles. Leaving the lines loose won't do it. Tow it at a good clip(30) and floor the throttle and eventually it will force the air out and start. Just make sure that you do not have any restrictions or leaks on the suction side of the pump.
It does not take much of an air leak to make it really hard to get enough air out of the fuel system. BTW Leaving the guts out of the fuel solenoid on a pump that you have just had apart sounds like the title of a YouTube video.
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lol
Gutting the solenoid was for his bench test.
That he plans to do first.
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Well an update. I bench tested the pump, I did leave the plunger out of the solenoid when I was testing it. First I used a cordless drill to spin it. Im gettin fuel out of the return but it has alot of fine little bubles, almost foam. I continued to do this for 2 battery on the drill. Still very aerated return line and no fuel out of the manifold. I then wanted to spin it faster, so I started using a 3/8 impact wrench. I figured using a 3/8 impact would net me a good amout of speed and not alot of impact power. I also thougt that once I got the pump turning it would not "impact". I started using this on the nut of the mainshaft and was working fine, still very aerated return and it was just spitting out of the manifold, and not even consistantly. I was turning it for a good 5 minutes and no diffrence. Then towards the end all of a sudden the nut stripped on the shaft. The shaft is now unusable from the damage, and I still think there is a issue in the pump/with the pump that I cant see. Im at my ends wit and now Im looking for another pump. I would look for a rebuildible pump and make 1 good pump out of the two but Im scared to due that I have no idea whats going on with my pump. I may just spring for a rebuilt pump. IT would be worth more than my car , but I really need to get this thing on the road.
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send it to Giles and let this pump go with every car you own after. Sorry for your loss, but kind of figured that is where it would end up when I heard impact. Now all should know not to use an impact on the pump.
Just to show my stupidity, when I sent my pump to Giles I did not take the out bolt out and dump all the fuel. I almost lost it in shipping when it hit customs the box was leaking diesel. I just figured if it wouldn't leak out when I dumped it it was good to go. Not so.
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Giles?
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Performance Diesel Injection in Markham, Ontario, canada...If I didn't spell it correctly look in the vendors section all info is there. You will get 2x the power for a local bosch rebuild price. Good stuff.
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OK. Thanks. I did a search and found some info. Not sure I can spring that right now. I have been looking for pumps but all the ones I have found are junk. Loose mainshafts and such.
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You send a pump to him and you can put it on every VW diesel you own from here on out. Kinda like marriage. Maybe someone could lend you a good pump until you can swing it. I would but I don't have any good pumps.
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Man, that sucks. I saw some pumps that are being sold for parts on thesamba.com @ $35 each. Maybe you could mix and match some parts to make a good one.
I was considering grabbing one. I recently opened a pump that was full of old diesel.... the vanes were frozen, and some of the parts had some pitting.
-Todd
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Yea thats the wierd part. Everything in the pump looks good. No excessive wear, pitting, nothing. Just isnt buildng enough pressure out of the manifold.
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Did you go as far as pulling the fuel valves in the delivery head... the part the hard lines screw to? There's the possibility that they're stuck. There's the main housing, a shim, spring, valve, valve holder and then the seal.
I know you said everything looks good, but when looking at mine i was worried about the fuel ports in the rear of the AL housing (to the cast iron part). I need to get some pipe cleaners or something to make sure everything is unobstructed.
At this point it may be easier and cheaper to buy a used, known good pump, since your mainshaft is trashed. They usually sell for anywhere between 100-200 + shipping.
-Todd