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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: texaseric on January 15, 2006, 05:43:43 pm
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Here's the situation (SEE UPDATE BELOW!):
Rebuilt everything. Injection pump rebuilt by Giles in Ontario. Compression at 420-plus psi per cylinder. Injectors checked out okay by local injection shop (break pressure at 155 bar). Injectors don't leak and good spray pattern, they say. But I'm planning to get these checked because I don't trust the shop 100 percent. Timing checks out at .039 inches (= 1mm). I adjusted this one myself.
New injector seats. I know how to use a torque wrench.
Emptied the tank and replaced the aging (slightly red/organge) fuel with fresh diesel. Ran it through the IP until clean fuel was coming out.
Engine smokes white like crazy and can't hold an idle. It will run, but not at idle speeds. Have to work the accelerator pedal. Very little time on the engine (maybe less than ten minutes).
I'm getting ready to dump this project and part out this 1.6 TD on eBay.
This might be my last call for help. I appreciate any advice I can get.
--texaseric :roll:
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Does the smoke smell like unburnt fuel?How well does the engine start up?
Check the fuel line entering the pump for any air bubbles in it.
Make sure that the banjo fittings marked IN/OUT are in thier correct spots on the pump(IN for supply,OUT for return).Does the engine run any better with the Cold start handle pulled out and/or will it only run with it pulled out?Does the engine sound like its firing on all four or is one cyl not firing?
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double check all the timing. I've seen a rabbit running with the injection pump 180* out, firing the injectors at TDC exhaust. Similar symptoms. Like Andy said, what does the exhaust smell like? Any particular noises the engine's making?
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Did you set the injection pump timing with the cold start lever pulled?
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I think DrD is right. My money is on 180 degrees out. :arrow:
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Just checked the timing. The mark on the injector pump gear is at the top with the engine at TDC (lobes on cam are up for cylinder No. 1--the cylinder closest to the timing belt). So unless the woodruff key is slotted incorrectly on the IP spindle (can that be easily screwed up in a rebuild?), the pump timing is not 180-degrees off. I was actually hoping it was!
Smoke smells like unburnt diesel. White.
Cold start lever was in all the way when I set the timing.
The engine starts, but doesn't hold idle at all. Have to rev it to keep it going. No noises that I can tell, but since I've never heard a TD run before, I'm no expert (had an NA before).
My next step is to have the injectors rebuilt and tested. If that fails, I may take a sledgehammer to this engine and buy a Buick. (My driver is a 2001 Jetta TDI, so that was a joke--but I'm giving up on TDs because this has been a nightmare.) :x
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so when you're holding the pedal to keep it running, is that when you can smell unburned fuel? Is it running smoothly, or thumping like one or two cylinders aren't firing? Use the throttle cable adjustment to set a hands-free fast idle, then crack each fuel line-to-injector union in turn and note what happens. Each time you open a line, that cylinder should stop firing and you'd notice a drop in rpm and a rougher idle. If you crack open a line, and there's little or no difference in idle speed or quality, you know there's something up with that cylinder. Maybe while you have your injectors out for checking, do a compression and leakdown check. It's easy to make a quickie leakdown checker, the most basic of which is a spare injector with it's guts removed, and a hose clamped onto it's line threads. Supply air pressure to each cylinder at TDC compression and listen for where the air is escaping. Hear it through the oil filler hole? rings. (there should be some there even in a perfect engine, due to ring gaps) hear it through the turbo inlet? (take inlet pipe off) intake valve. turbo exhaust outlet? (take exhaust elbow off turbo) exhaust valve.
make sure the engine is perfectly on TDC compression, or the air pressure could unexpectedly turn the engine over.
If you feel like dynamiting the whole works, just shove it in a corner and cool off for a week or two. When you eventually get it figured out, you'll feel a great deal of satisfaction in the learning experience and your nice running TD.
incidentally, off boost TD's sound pretty much the same as n/a's.
don't give up!
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generally a shop would have no reason to lie about injectors testing out good. they would be more inclined to tell you thay are bad.
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No bubbles in the line.
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Dr Diesel. Thanks for the advice. I plan to convert one of the injection nozzles from my NA into a compression and leakdown tester and follow your advice before I take the sledge to this disaster. I've learned more than I care to about TDs--to no avail.
I did a search for an adapter and came up blank. My current compression tester fits the glow plug hole only. (The largest adapter fittings that came with it are too small for the injector threads.) Unfortunately, the IP gets in way of glow plug location for Cylinders 1 and 2. BTW: Cylinders 3 and 4 tested at 420 psi (at the gloplug hole) They held the pressure quite well.
I'll post a how-to on the adapter in case anyone else wants to make one of these.
:?
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Can't do the detach-the-injector-line dealio because engine won't idle at a reasonable or steady rpm. I don't want the engine spinning at 4,000 rpm while I fumble around with the injector nuts in clouds of white smoke. The banjo connections are a no-brainer. IN coming from the fuel filter and out going to the return and the small injector line on Cylinder 4.
Will swapping the pumps really work? I thought NA pump is associated with nozzles with break pressure set for about 120 bar whereas I have 155 bar injectors in the (TD) engine. I'm about to sacrifice one of the NA injectors as well.
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I think they meant make sure it says "OUT" on the output banjo bolt.
...if it didn't, you would see bubbles in the fuel.
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the memory might be failing me, but it seems to me that 465psi was the minimum for cylinder compression..
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OK - I'm new here so take it easy one me....
Everyone seems to rave about Giles but I know nothing about them. I just want to say that it is possible to assemble the pump with the cam/plunger 180 degrees out. Giles sounds like an top notch outfit but everyone makes mistakes.
This is probably not the case but just a thought. Swapping out the pumps, while a PITA, would eliminate this as a cause.
Eric
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i recently put a 1.6 vw diesel into my 87 sami the mtr ran fine before i pulled it out of jetta, but i wanted to fresh it up a bit and put some new parts into it. Had the head rebuilt, new injectors, rebuilt inject pump couple other odds and ends. and i am having the same problem you are. unfortunatly i cant get a shop to look at it cause it is in a sami. The shops all say there is no book that has info on a vw mtr in a sami! but a couple of the guys have offered suggestions say it sounds like the pump is 180 out. As well as a co-worker on mine who was a vw mech in the 70s and 80s he says it sounds like it is 180 out.....im going to try this today....ill let ya know
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Well if the pump is the problem, I'll let submit a report on Customer Service at Superior Fuel Injection. Giles has been great on the phone, by the way. But, then, my engine's still smokin'.
Here's my plan of attack. Will make sure I have a real TDC by checking the flywheel mark and that the piston on cylinder numero uno is at its apex. Have a borescope that might work on this. But will remove the oil pan if necessary (want to avoid that).
Will then check the compression on all cylinders. I'm having an adapter made for that out of an old injector since my current compression tester fits the gloplug hole only (and 1 and 2 glowplug holes are impossible to access due to the IP and length of the adapter). Then leak down test with same setup. The head and bottom end are both rebuilt, so if valves or rings are the problem, I'm kinda hosed.
Then the old NA pump goes on if all that checks out. If it runs with the old rusty NA IP, Giles & Co. have some splaining to do. I may try the pump before pulling the pan since I think the former is easier. Those pan bolts near the bell housing are a PITA.
Thanks for all the advice everyone. Keep it coming. Banjo bolts are correct by the way.
UGH! I like fiddling with this stuff. But the frustration level makes me want to return to woodworking.
--Eric :shock:
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Do you have the original flywheel on there? If you have a gas one you don't want to use the big (more visible timing mark) cause that is 6degrees before TDC. You want to use the small "0" that is to the right of the big timing mark by about an inch.
For the oil pan bolts by the tranny get a 1/4" flex joint on a 1/4" extension with a short 10mm socket.
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Holy flywheel, 935 racer! That may be it. I'm not original owner, so previous owner (or before) must have installed a gasser flywheel at some point. Found the small "0" mark several degrees to left (or right, depending on north/south hemisphere) of what looked like an obvious TDC mark to the mechanically inept (me). Hope that experience didn't gnar my pistons. Spent thirty minutes trying to get everything perfectly lined up before Daily Show time. Still a degree off when I tightened everything up.... Will try again before retiming the pump and putting the lines and injectors back in with another set of injector seats. These can be recycled can't they?
Will let everyone know if this solves the problem--before the weekend. Will send first born to 935 racer if this thing runs smoothly next time I turn the key.
--Eric
:idea:
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I did the same thing once, on my first diesel I ever owned, luckily there was no valve/piston contact. You would likely know if you toasted your valves on start up, my bet is you didn't so you should be good. Also make sure you shim your cam lock tool on both sides with feeler gauges of the same thickness, I find this is a lot more important with 1.9 heads than 1.6 heads.
As for your first born, I could use a employee here its getting to be a pretty hectic 1 man job. That or think you could wack, or at least get my 6 grand back from a lady in houston that stole it from me?
8)
Really hope this solves your problem, these are really great engines to modify. I really doubt your problem is the giles pump, eventhough I build my own pumps I have installed giles pumps on customers cars and they are real nice, just not enough fueling for what I like :twisted:
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that's a very good point 935racer, glad u had the previous experience
to tell everyone, especially eric.
please do not doubt my pump as there is no way the pump internals
are out of time. I am very thorough and my experience is vast with
these pumps and i always double check that i assemble it correctly
on every pump even though i've been doing it for 20 years.
make sure u loosen your cam shaft pulley when u do the re-time.
pls let me know asap.
Giles
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Success!
Couldn't wait for the new injection seats. Put it all back together. It idled on first start (after clearing air out of the lines by turning with loose injector line nuts). Absolutely no smoke. Could have run it with the garage door down without killing the cats.
LESSON: KNOW YOUR FLYWHEELS! Even the VW guy at the machine shop didn't mention potential of having a gassr flywheel--and I asked him specifically about flywheel marks.
I'll keep everyone posted on the progress from here. BTW--this TD is in a 1981 pickup and it's going to be fast.
Thanks 935, Giles, Dr. Diesel, and everyone else.
For the search engine: flywheel, timing marks, white smoke, timing.
--eric :wink:
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Success!
Could have run it with the garage door down without killing the cats.
I'm pretty sure it wouldnt take long before they were "put to sleep" in your garage hehe
but anyways its great to hear about your success with your diesel!!!
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So, I have an remanufactured flywheel in the garage that I bought in preparation for an engine swap. No idea what it is originally from. All I see on it is a notch, no 0. Is there any way to tell if this notch is truely at TDC?
Is there a way to accuratly get the engine at TDC without the bellhousing on?
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There's a special tool that's impossible to find. I made the mistake of putting the bell housing on and assuming the obvious mark was the mark. It was close enough to make me think it was correct. Better to confirm the mark, without the tool (forget the part number, but it's shown in the manual) by putting the transmission on when the head is off and have piston on Cylinder 1 at its apex.
Of course this is coming from the guy who screwed it up.
:roll: