VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: caddysaver on February 28, 2011, 02:27:32 pm
-
1981 caddy 1.6 diesel, got engine in box, had the block hot tanked and cam bearings installed by shop, I installed bearing, rings, gaskets etc. new oil pump, rebuilt head from shop. My oil pressure is over 125 psi, engine runs fine but sounds like a rock crusher, when engine is running and I remove the oil filler cap oil shoots out of the hole from the lifters. Could this be a bad oil filter, when I took of the oil filter off it was only about 1/2 full and this mounts up side down. HELP
-
For a cold engine with fresh bearings that's actually not out of line for oil pressure.. As long as it isn't blowing the oil filter apart.. These things carry crazy high oil pressure..
AS far as your oil slinging out of the cap.. Was there a plastic baffle under the valve cover? These were actually installed in later models, but many earlier ones have had it installed.. Cheap easy upgrade to help cut down on oil getting into the intake... IF you don;t have the baffle (open the oil cap and you can see the camshaft), then the oil slinging out is normal as well...
The "rock crusher" sound could be a couple things.. Timing could be off, or injectors could be bad.. We'd really need more detail ( or a sound vid clip with sound) to give any more explanation...
-
It does not have an oil shield, and the repair manuel as that oil pressure should be around 28 psi @ 2000 rpms. I had timing set at an old time VW shop that been around for 30 plus years, new injectors rebuilt pump, I have spared no expense on this rebuild. I have a friend that has the same truck and mine sounds 5 times louder, like a 1995 dodge cummings only louder, the shop said that the pressure was to high causing noise on the top end lifter area.. What I don't understand is why the oil filter was only 1/2 full when its up side down
-
oil pressure should be around 28 psi @ 2000 rpms.
yup...with the engine at full operating temperature... rad fan has cycled once.
Are you seeing 125psi all the time... or when the engine is warming up??
Another random question: what weight of oil are you running, and what's the weather like where you live?
-
oil pressure should be around 28 psi @ 2000 rpms.
Actually that's the minimum oil pressure.......my rabbit used to have 45-55psi @ 2000......
As for the loudness, try retarding the IP timing a bit and see how it sounds. If it then makes white smoke you'll need to advance it more, also make sure the cam timing is correct.
-
Just as a comparison, my 1.6NA, which has some miles on it (not sure exactly how many, but it's not new) has over 100psi oil pressure running cold, 70psi running hot, and about 30 psi idling hot.
-
Is that the original 1981 engine? If so it has mechanical lifters, oil pressure shouldn't make much difference to them.. I'm still thinking along the lines of a timing issue of some sort for the noise..
The spec in the book is indeed a minimum spec.. As Vince asked, what weight of oil, and your weather?
The half full oil filter is curious.. Does the filter show any signs of "puffing up" like it's gonna blow?
-
It could be the regulator in the oil pump, but really as said above that doesn't seem too high for a fresh tight cold engine! I have a gasser(old mech lifter) with 240k on it still hits 90psi cold.
-
One other random question while we are brainstorming possibilities here: what colour is your oil filter?? Or more to the point, is it orange? :)
-
oil pressure should be around 28 psi @ 2000 rpms.
Actually that's the minimum oil pressure.......my rabbit used to have 45-55psi @ 2000......
As for the loudness, try retarding the IP timing a bit and see how it sounds. If it then makes white smoke you'll need to advance it more, also make sure the cam timing is correct.
mine has 70psi @ 2000
45psi @ idle..
-
One other random question while we are brainstorming possibilities here: what colour is your oil filter?? Or more to the point, is it orange? :)
haha good call.
-
Funny thing about orange filters.. I had problems with 2 engines a few years ago that would blow oil filters apart if revved when cold, even with 5w20 oil.. Discussed it here a couple times and never did get to the bottom of it.. After a few thousand miles it straightened out... :-\ The orange filters were the one brand that that would hold together, but barely...
-
Thanks for all the input. The current filter is orange and is a f%&m but it is not damaged. I think that I have found the problem, when I installed the head gasket I put it up side down blocking the small port in the head. I ordered new head bolts and three notch gasket. I'm in California and the temp here is 50 so its not cold and I'm running 30 wt. Its funny that this gaskets holes all line up even when its wrong. When I get it done I'll keep you guys informed.
-
Were you checking oil pressure at the head, or on the filter housing?? IF you were checking at the filter housing that would make sense.. But, if you were checking at the head, and had that kind of pressure, your HG is on correctly.. When they are flipped you get no oil whatsoever to the head as the oil port would be blocked......
-
I haven't ever used a fram filter, so I can't say anything about them at all. I know some people do not use them because of some pressure deal with them. Not 100% certain what the deal was, but it was something about a check valve or something.
I use Mann. I get them for like 7 or 8 bucks from the local guy. Always had good luck with them, nice big oil filters too. They are comparable in quality to Napa Golf/Silver oil filters so I have use them on occasion.
-
the pressure was at the head, when I look at the gasket the 3 notches are on the left side of the bulge on the side of the head. I'm pulling the head tonight anyway, it gets me out of the house if you know what I mean
-
if you have pressure at the head, the gasket is done right.
-
Understand about getting out of the house.. ;D ;D But if you are referring to left, as in the driver's side of the car, the HG is right...
-
I cut a fram, carquest blue and red (two grades, both made by wix) open for the local carquest to compare and show off.
Fram: 36 pleats w/ cardboard ends, lame anti-drain valve and the pressure bypass valve was at the other end so if it opened the oil would flush everything the pleats caught back into the engine.
Blue: 60 pleats w/ metal ends, well fitting silicone anti-drain valve, pressure bypass valve it the same end as the threads so it the oil would turn right around and exit the filter without touching the filter media.
Red: 54 pleats w/ metal ends, silicone anti-drain valve and a slightly different design of bypass valve at the thread end.
-
Yet it had to be Fram who was first for putting that brilliant grippy stuff on the filters.... I guess there are others doing that now... ::)
-
I use the spin on TDI bosch or mann filters. They are supposed to have a better anti drainback valve and bypass pressure rating.
I would see if there is a pressure spring in the oil pump and if it is a bit over zealous. IIRC we had one in a small block chevy that we shimmed so that it would build more pressure, but then it started blowing apart oil filters. I have no clue if the VW design is similar or not, but if it is that could be a source of your high pressure.
When you built it did you use the 36mm oil pump? If you did and have a mech engine it might not be too far off from what it should be.
-
Of course none of the filter talk helps the original problem, but doesn't "most" of the oil end up bypassing the filter anyway because of how the pressures are set up in the bypass valve in the filter?
-
Of course none of the filter talk helps the original problem, but doesn't "most" of the oil end up bypassing the filter anyway because of how the pressures are set up in the bypass valve in the filter?
No, the filter is very important on pressures. Mine that I run yeilds 5-10psi better than the orange thing. And it builds pressure faster on cold start, I think because of drainback. Plus if the expoxy/cardboard mix in the orange filter comes apart it is then pretty much a 100% bypass. That could effect the oil pressure and may have happened here if his filter was only 1/2 full. I don't think the orange is as good of quality as most and could be causing some pressure issues because of that.
Before I knew any better and my local place didn't have a PH3569 I used an old ford gasser I think PH1 since it was the "same". Randomly my oil light and buzzer would go off until the next oil change, then it dissappeared. The PH1 has differnent internals and roughly 1/2 of the bypass rating as the 3569 and it was causing some pressure issues. So I guess what I am saying is the filter is a relavant point...maybe not his answer, but maybe it is. I would look more into the oil pump as stated in my previous post.
-
I'm with theman53 on the bypass valve in the oil pump being stuck and not pushing against the spring to dump the extra pressure.
-
The 1.6 shouldn't need a bypass filter as there is a bypass valve in the oil filter flange, or a anti-drainback valve since the filter sits almost vertical. My filter is always full when I do a oil change.
I'm with theman53 on the bypass valve in the oil pump being stuck and not pushing against the spring to dump the extra pressure.
most engines had no bypass valve in the flange..
and you still need an anti-drain back valve, the oil pump pickup is lower than the filter. the oil is gonna get syphoned back out without a drain back valve.
-
Thanks for all the ideas, when I talk about the gasket notches they are on the left side looking at the engine. You are right that I have pressure and oil at the head but doing some research on gaskets and I have a gasket bought from a dealership the was made in Spain and when I place it on a spare block that I have the correct way when installed would be with the notches on the right side facing the engine, does anyone think that when different companies making gasket some place the notches on the left and others on the right? I'm going to try a different filter than the orange one before I pull the head. This thing is becoming a love hate relationship
-
Thanks for all the ideas, when I talk about the gasket notches they are on the left side looking at the engine. You are right that I have pressure and oil at the head but doing some research on gaskets and I have a gasket bought from a dealership the was made in Spain and when I place it on a spare block that I have the correct way when installed would be with the notches on the right side facing the engine, does anyone think that when different companies making gasket some place the notches on the left and others on the right? I'm going to try a different filter than the orange one before I pull the head. This thing is becoming a love hate relationship
notches can be on different sides depending on the gasket brand..
ive seen some on the right, and some on the left..
only thing you gotta pay attention to, is that the word "OBEN" (top) is facing up..
-
This thing is becoming a love hate relationship
Welcome to VW diesel ownership! ;D
If the notches are to your left while facing the engine that is typically backwards, but I have seen one or two that were odd.... Usually, though, when the gasket is flipped you have no oil to the head period.. ???
I'd try a filter, that's cheap and easy.. Like most of us here.. :o
-
The 1.6 shouldn't need a bypass filter as there is a bypass valve in the oil filter flange, or a anti-drainback valve since the filter sits almost vertical. My filter is always full when I do a oil change.
I'm with theman53 on the bypass valve in the oil pump being stuck and not pushing against the spring to dump the extra pressure.
most engines had no bypass valve in the flange..
and you still need an anti-drain back valve, the oil pump pickup is lower than the filter. the oil is gonna get syphoned back out without a drain back valve.
I stand corrected man. upon looking at the bentley again, even though they show the oil filter bypass valve above the filter in the oil flow chart it appears to be built into the filter.
-
the filter screws on with the hole facing up so no oil could leak out upon removeal I don't see any relief valve on the filter housing the only one that I could see was that on the new oil pump that I installed
not sure what you mean about the vertical filter?
-
the filter hangs off the engine with the filter facing up.. the top of the filter faces up. vertically installed..
if the filter were installed on its side, it would be horizontally mounted..
-
Of course none of the filter talk helps the original problem, but doesn't "most" of the oil end up bypassing the filter anyway because of how the pressures are set up in the bypass valve in the filter?
No, the filter is very important on pressures. Mine that I run yeilds 5-10psi better than the orange thing. And it builds pressure faster on cold start, I think because of drainback. Plus if the expoxy/cardboard mix in the orange filter comes apart it is then pretty much a 100% bypass. That could effect the oil pressure and may have happened here if his filter was only 1/2 full. I don't think the orange is as good of quality as most and could be causing some pressure issues because of that.
Before I knew any better and my local place didn't have a PH3569 I used an old ford gasser I think PH1 since it was the "same". Randomly my oil light and buzzer would go off until the next oil change, then it dissappeared. The PH1 has differnent internals and roughly 1/2 of the bypass rating as the 3569 and it was causing some pressure issues. So I guess what I am saying is the filter is a relavant point...maybe not his answer, but maybe it is. I would look more into the oil pump as stated in my previous post.
My point was, and as you pointed out, if the filter were a problem it usually results in lack of pressure, not an over pressure situation when pressure is measured at the head!
-
i bet its either fine, or the pressure relief is stuck closed.
-
UPDATE, Installed a different filter than the orange one and the oil pressure at idle with a warm engine is 30 psi and when I give it a rev it jumps to about 60 psi and that is at the head. I think that the filter could have been the issue. Now I have an oil leak at the cover gasket, the fun continues, an other reason to get out of the house. CHEERS
-
UPDATE, Installed a different filter than the orange one and the oil pressure at idle with a warm engine is 30 psi and when I give it a rev it jumps to about 60 psi and that is at the head. I think that the filter could have been the issue. Now I have an oil leak at the cover gasket, the fun continues, an other reason to get out of the house. CHEERS
that sounds completely acceptable...
-
Of course none of the filter talk helps the original problem, but doesn't "most" of the oil end up bypassing the filter anyway because of how the pressures are set up in the bypass valve in the filter?
No, the filter is very important on pressures. Mine that I run yeilds 5-10psi better than the orange thing. And it builds pressure faster on cold start, I think because of drainback. Plus if the expoxy/cardboard mix in the orange filter comes apart it is then pretty much a 100% bypass. That could effect the oil pressure and may have happened here if his filter was only 1/2 full. I don't think the orange is as good of quality as most and could be causing some pressure issues because of that.
Before I knew any better and my local place didn't have a PH3569 I used an old ford gasser I think PH1 since it was the "same". Randomly my oil light and buzzer would go off until the next oil change, then it dissappeared. The PH1 has differnent internals and roughly 1/2 of the bypass rating as the 3569 and it was causing some pressure issues. So I guess what I am saying is the filter is a relavant point...maybe not his answer, but maybe it is. I would look more into the oil pump as stated in my previous post.
My point was, and as you pointed out, if the filter were a problem it usually results in lack of pressure, not an over pressure situation when pressure is measured at the head!
Yep *usually*
-
Well i'll be darned! congrats!
Wow i am amazed, i know problem is solved but can someone help me understand how on earth a filter would contribute to high pressure at the head?
-
BIGWVMAN,
I saw a cut a way of an orange filter, which is held togehter inside by cardboard, a Napa filter hold together with metal. I have not cut open my orange one yet but I think that the insde of the orange one comes apart and the oil does not go through the cardboard filter which would reduce pressure
-
Well i'll be darned! congrats!
Wow i am amazed, i know problem is solved but can someone help me understand how on earth a filter would contribute to high pressure at the head?
Smaller holes? larger holes??? something just right to trick the oil pump into thinking it isn't the correct pressure? Don't know.
BUT I do not trust the orange Your results may vary :D
-
I have used ORANGE brand for 4 years now with almost every oil change, No problem with anything.
-
I have used ORANGE brand for 4 years now with almost every oil change, No problem with anything.
It's a tempermental VW thing (there's something new, right?).. Sometimes they work, sometimes they plug, sometimes they explode..
-
I have used ORANGE brand for 4 years now with almost every oil change, No problem with anything.
It's a tempermental VW thing (there's something new, right?).. Sometimes they work, sometimes they plug, sometimes they explode..
Or it's further evidence of hit-and-miss QC from Big Orange. ;-)
-
That's quite possible Vince, but I have used them in other places and they've been just fine.. Brother in law's t-bird is a #$&* to change the filter on.. It's had Frams with the grippy stuff since it's first oil change back in '94.. It's now sporting 340K miles on the original drive line, and never a filter issue.. I quite expect the engine to see 400K the way it's going... Anything else that I can get to the filter on, doesn't get the pumpkin filters though...
To clarify my earlier statement, if you don't use parts the VW likes, the VW isn't gonna like you.. ;)
-
I agree with and have seen most of the complaints on the big orange, used to split them all the time when they would clog and it was cold back in mi , but nearly all of what everyone is pointing out creates and all seem to acknowledge creates LOW oil pressure, not high as was the original issue-measured at head. I could understand if it was a low pressure issue, i could understand if it was high pressure measured at the filter, i just don't see how it created HIGH oil pressure at the head. I guess the vw parts statement is right gotta use parts the vw likes!