VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: NintendoKD on February 27, 2011, 02:13:22 am
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I am just an adventurer from the IDI side of the forum. A bit curious about the TDI side, and since I am familiar with mechanical injection the next most logical step is to take a look at M-TDI right? How is it different from TDI, and IDI? is there anywhere I can find more reading material. Boring here in Afghanistan, need something to keep my mind sharp.
thanks,
Kevin
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=6427.0
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its basically the offspring of a TDI and IDI engine..
its the best of both worlds (kinda)
the simplicity of the IDI, with the toughness of the TDI..
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Easier to just swap in the wiring and ECU. Generally cheaper too.. and in the end you have more power, more efficiency, and more tuning ability.
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Easier to just swap in the wiring and ECU. Generally cheaper too.. and in the end you have more power, more efficiency, and more tuning ability.
If you say so... ::)
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Well really, let's think of both setups.
Ultimately the ONLY reason you'd go M-TDI was to keep the cable throttle. And completely take away from what is good about the TDI.. The computer that monitors everything and adjusts accordingly in real time. There isn't really anything to gain by going mechanical.. (Unless I'm wrong). Your gonna have to do fab work to get the trans/shifter in anyway, what's a few more brackets and wires??
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Well really, let's think of both setups.
Ultimately the ONLY reason you'd go M-TDI was to keep the cable throttle. And completely take away from what is good about the TDI.. The computer that monitors everything and adjusts accordingly in real time. There isn't really anything to gain by going mechanical.. (Unless I'm wrong). Your gonna have to do fab work to get the trans/shifter in anyway, what's a few more brackets and wires??
Depends on what vehicle it's going into. Similar VW car, absolutely, you keep everything electronic. Older vehicle, ie Vanagon, Suzuki, Toyota truck, etc etc. the electronics turn into a huge pain in the a$$, not to mention being a hinderance to wet off-roading where the engine may be partially or totally submerged briefly. :D
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It only takes 5 or so wires to run all the TDI wiring along side your stock wiring. Simplistic as it gets lol
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Fewer things to fail.. While we're at it, take that pesky turbo off of there! ;D
I'll totally agree withe the advantages of electronic engine management.. But after years of retrofitting EFI into classic cars, and dealing with the crap they keep throwing out there now.. I'm thrilled to perform the black arts of carb tuning...
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Fewer things to fail.. While we're at it, take that pesky turbo off of there! ;D
I'll totally agree withe the advantages of electronic engine management.. But after years of retrofitting EFI into classic cars, and dealing with the crap they keep throwing out there now.. I'm thrilled to perform the black arts of carb tuning...
Simplistic as swapping in a complete FI system as it gets. ;)
Carb knowledge evades me lol
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Simplistic as swapping in a complete FI system as it gets. ;)
Pretty much.. Probably the most involved part of the swap is mounting the go pedal.. Other than that, plug and pray err play...
Although at some point in time when TDI's are plentiful like 1.6's are now (sort of) the M-TDI getup would be great for using one in some variety of industrial use.. Power units, or one heck of a lawnmower..
Carb knowledge evades me lol
I think that's why they appeal to me moreso than EFI now days... Black art and Quadrajet FTW!!!
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There is no data out there that says the mtdi gets different mileage than etdi. I'm averaging 32mpg in my vanagon (pp520 nozzles, 11mm pump, 18psi) & on the van side of things all the tdi reports, e & m are in the same range. Some higher, some lower but mot one type at the top of bottom. (fyi gasser vans are 14-20mpg average)
Tune? Screwdriver or laptop, same tweaks.
M doesn't compensate for temp, if you can tell me what a huge difference this would make then we'd learn something. E protects your turbo at altitude from overspeed too I believe.
BTW Jeremy there are hotrod mtdi's getting better mpg than your posted average. Check out some of Hey & Tintin's posts.
I agree if you are swapping a tdi into a car that had one factory its pretty easy but in van/sami etc conversions the harness mods cost can approach the cost of a mtdi pump (actually Andrew has one for sale for less than a tdi vanagon harness)
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I guess we have agreed on one point though ;) it fully depends on the swap vehicle, and the circumstances at hand. Full donor car available, the swap in to most would be fairly straight forward.
What are the costs to convert a pump to M? During the conversion are there any pump modifications done? Or will it still be a stock pump?
At the end of the day, they cost about the same it seems.. It really only depends on what your putting it in.
My mileage in my sig was achieved with a 1.6 N/A with over 550k miles on it ;) haven't gotten the tdi in yet, but I expect higher numbers for sure.
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Fewer things to fail.. While we're at it, take that pesky turbo off of there! ;D
I'll totally agree withe the advantages of electronic engine management.. But after years of retrofitting EFI into classic cars, and dealing with the crap they keep throwing out there now.. I'm thrilled to perform the black arts of carb tuning...
kinda like a breathe of fresh air when you get to work on a vehicle with points and a carburator!
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kinda like a breathe of fresh air when you get to work on a vehicle with points and a carburator!
Well, I'll pass on breaker points whenever I can... Some of the older import carbs with 10,000 vac lines I can pass on too... ;)
Jeremy you hit the nail on the head there.. Pends on the swap.. No sense in converting your 98 Jetta to MTDI, but when swapping a TDI to your lawnmower (I'm digging that idea BTW) MTDI would be ideal...
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breaker points are not fun, but they dont ever leave you guessing either. points usually work, or dont work.. and if they dont work, you clean them and they work again. lol..
and yes, those vacuum controlled carbs of the late 80s, yea, f#!% that.. ive taken miles of vacuum lines off toyotas, hondas, mitsubishis, and the like..
they always run better with less vacuum lines..
anyone remember the 3 barrel carb that hondas used to use back in the day? and that big black box they had to control the carb? there musta been 60 vacuum lines coming out of that control box..
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anyone remember the 3 barrel carb that hondas used to use back in the day? and that big black box they had to control the carb? there musta been 60 vacuum lines coming out of that control box..
I'm shuddering at the thought.. I had one.. And they needed most of the lines to run half decent.. When working, though, they did work rather well..
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As I build up cars in my head I think the MTDI would be great for a straight show car where people love less engine bay parts and wiring clutter. Having done a couple tdi swaps I don't think the wiring is too bad but it typically requires the swapper to learn to read wiring diagrams which seems to be above 90% of the VW world's abilities ::) :o
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well, the car is a 2001 MR2 Spyder, and I was thinking of how I could avoid all of the CEL mess, so I would need the tdi to send sensory information to the ECU or use an tdi ecu and wiring harness instead. I originally loved the idea of a completely non electronic car save the rad fans and fuel pump. but I'm thinking more and more just going tdi, or MTDI I love the mech bosch pumps, mainly because I want to use a fully mechanical vnt turbo.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=6427.0
thank you to the gods of the forums combing ;)
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what of the prospects of getting one that has the VNT turbo (2000-2003 i think) and has the computer to control it.. possibility eh!
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=6427.0
thank you to the gods of the forums combing ;)
it was on the 1st page of the FAQ...I don't look too hard ;)
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It has been a long time since I checked that thing "the faq". I have been on the forums too long I think, have become too lax and lazy. :-[ well, M-TDI sounds like the ticket to make the most power since I can use a mech pump and send it off to Jedi Master Giles. the only catch is........ now I have to buy a TDI engine "not easy to come by" "NOT CHEAP!" god help me, i'm in too deep. TDI would be better in some ways because computer controlling gives much more finite tuning, and I have a friend in Germany who may be able to get me a suitable engine ;) that may or may not be legally installed ;) and used with or without proper emissions equipment. ;) I'm horribly torn now, to M-TDI? or to IDI? High power to weight ratio and the "nobody has done that" factor are my initial reasons for looking into it. I still think that there is some juice to be squeezed out of the old orange of the IDI but the ease and uncomplication of the TDI sound so darn alluring. It also doesn't help my descicion that I just made some deployment money from being here in Afghan. All in all, this forum is bad for me, like vegas to a chronic gambler. I think I'll just cut my losses and make 2 MR2's with both engines built to the teeth. HA! TAKE THAT!........ ;D :D :) :-\ :( thanks again guys
Nintendo
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I vote you to show me what an IDI is capable of. TDI can be your next one...they will be around longer anyhow, so build the IDI now while you still can. <begging and pleading voice if you can imagine, they need a text for that.
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IDI - capable of 200-250 hp
TDI - capable of 300+hp..
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I think numbers based on what you can get out of stock internals & still be daily drivable would be a better more real world discussion. (not including clutch)
TDI e or m - larger turbo, IC & tune - 200hp & 300ftlb ??
AAZ IDI - larger turbo, IC & tune - 150 & 220ftlb ??
1.6 IDI - ??? similar to AAZ potential ??
Those are numbers off the top of my head, what does the collective think?
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Stock TDI should handle just a tune with no issues. Few guys over on the TDIclub running at least 200ft.lbs on stock internals.
The main limiting factor with the TDI's is the injectors. The only difference between the 90hp 1Z/AHU and the higher hp motors is the injectors. A set of .205 injectors in the same motor will increase power to like 120hp/185tq. A set of .216's will bump that again 135hp/210tq. All with stock tune, stock boost, stock everything. To be able to gain %50 hp and %35 tq with one single modification... incredible. Add a tune to that to make it boost sooner, allow more boost to be made for the extra fuel, and adjust timing! your making some power now.
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my tdi-m ;)
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=4929.300
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=4929.330
a few méchanichal pump fort tdi-m ans idi
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=4929.675
i run with a tdi-m since 2005/2006 it's a plesure