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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Bugsy_malone 666 on February 22, 2011, 04:12:03 pm
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Well I hope I dont get to much of posting this thread as I think it has been covered before and I have lurked around reading the forum a bit before managing to register to clear up what to do.
Basically I have a lowish milage 1.6 N/A with what looks like a recon stock fuel pump for an N/A. Originally I ran this in my baywindow camper before picking up a cheap TD and it was pretty slow at like 54bhp(?) so anyway I have had the engine kicking about for a while and wanted to do somthing useful with it, its currently bolted to a Vanagon/T25 slanted sump that puts the engine at 50degrees, so I do have a chance to have a look inside without to much distrubance but i suspect I wont find much of usefulness in there!
I also have a 1.8 mk3 golf driver which I have had for years and I think its kinda come to the end of its first life, its served me well but I just got a mk6 golf TDi (with a 1600TDi!) and thought maybe a TD conversion on my mk3!
So the 1600 N/A will run on Veg oil which is one requirement, but I need to look at turbo options.
I have a garret T15 turbo which came from a 1.7TD engine (Vauxhal/opel 1997 1.7DTi GM engine?) it needs a bearing set which i have seen on ebay cheap and though ok what else do I need to make it a TD.
Presumably I can get a TD fuel advance barnicle(is that what its called) from any other bosch TD pump and stick that in place of my current top for turbo fuel advance? are there any other things to change here?
so if thats a suitable turbo and the fuel advance top is an easy swap, what about injectors? are the 1.6 NA/TD ones the same?
Piston squirters seem to be something that come up fairly regular to stop the engine eating itself, so I am wondering how needed are they? I dont want to kill a perfectly good engine due to my heavy driving style (I am suprised the mk3 1.8 is still great at 120k considering it sees 6k rpm regular!), what I want is a turbo diesel using stuff I mostly already have without the investment of another engine that I can get maybe 70-90bhp out of (and who knows what torque) so that it at least drives as well as the petrol engine thats in there.
I do also have some intercoolers kicking about, one about 12" long 3" deep by 10" wide with a thermostatic valve for warm up inside of an old Renault 5 Turbo and I also have a volvo intercooler thats about 2ft square but only about 1" deep, I thought this might also be useful as I have heard bringing induction air temps down can stop the engine from eating itself so quickly.
I mean my dad has a 1.4TDi Seat (basically a polo) and that thing really puts you in your seat for 70-80bhp, yet my 90bhp mk6 golf just doesnt!
So I guess I want to be able to feel turbo pull, but my base engine is a 1600 NA.
The only other thing is are solid valve lifts ok? earlier engines seem to have them but most of the TDs seem to be hydraulic? or is there an easy retrofit proceedure(most people will say bung a 1.9TDi head on)
So what can I do, are my plans pretty sound or are there things I have forgotton? Just looking for a generally budget based conversion and not looking for hotrod performance, more matched performance with the ability to run on vegetable oil to make driving cheap and fun in a modified mk3 :)
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I converted my old 4-door from n/a to TD. Used a AAZ head,pump and injectors, T3 and mani, ME intake mani. ran @ 15psi and other then the fact that the motor was in need of rings from the beginning( had a spare 1.6TD block that i was starting to rebuild )... it was reliable and took a beating like a champ
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I think there are only two things that need to be taken in to account when putting a turbo on an N/A engine...
The block from what I recall (once was looking in to the prospects of turboing an n/a, but now im going TDi lol) the blocks are the same with regards to the piston squirters.. I mean they are a nice upgrade, but entirely necessary? No. Will you be running the engine at 1250F all the time? There have been N/a engines with a modded pump withstand the temps just as easily as a TD motor. Obviously without them you won't be able to beat on it quite as hard, They aren't really even really good until stuff starts getting REALLY hot.. Keep the fuel moderate for power and not billowing like a freight train and you'll be ok. The head is also identical aside from sodium filled exhaust valves, and possibly different pre-cup? I think i may have read that somewhere.
Is this engine Mechanical? I think I read you referencing solid lifters? shouldn't matter really, as there were mechanical 1.6TD's from the factory.
The engine will love an inter-cooler, not too big or it will really lag boost building up.
The pump head should also be able to be swapped over.
In summary, Many have successfully put turbo's on n/a's with with ZERO modifications and came out fine. There is a member on here R.O.R.2.0 who turboe'd the crap out of a stock 1.5n/a motor, and it did fine. He's around 23-25 so you know it was beaten on too. ;)
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honestly, if i had an na diesel and i wanted to turbo it, i would just turbo it, i wouldn't get a td pump cause they don't put out any extra fuel, like everyone has says, just watch your egts because of not having sodium filled valves they do no dissipate the heat as quickly so they will become burnt and warped much more easily. as far as the piston squirters, i really do wonder how much difference they truly make.
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I would think the solid lifter heads would be better suited to a turbo set up. The hydraulic heads use a lot of oil pressure, and having solid lifters free's up a lot of pressure for a turbo. (In theory, the turbo should last longer with higher pressures and cooler oil.) EGT's are what to watch for. I heard the turbo motors had forged crankshafts vs the NA's having a cast crankshaft. ....Not entirely sure that's accurate though.
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I mean my dad has a 1.4TDi Seat (basically a polo) and that thing really puts you in your seat for 70-80bhp, yet my 90bhp mk6 golf just doesnt!
What are the kerb weights of these vehicles? Would I be wrong in thinking the mkVI golf might weigh nearly twice the polo/ibiza?
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I would think the solid lifter heads would be better suited to a turbo set up. The hydraulic heads use a lot of oil pressure, and having solid lifters free's up a lot of pressure for a turbo. (In theory, the turbo should last longer with higher pressures and cooler oil.) EGT's are what to watch for. I heard the turbo motors had forged crankshafts vs the NA's having a cast crankshaft. ....Not entirely sure that's accurate though.
ive never seen ANY vw with a cast crank shaft.. not a gasser, let alone a diesel..
im not going to say they never did, but im 99% positive that diesels ALL got forged bottom ends..
and as someone was talking about the n/a pump and injectors, yea, they work fine as long as you tune your pump right..
ive been running a n/a pump and injectors on my engine for lots of miles now.. the n/a pump gives better bottom end power.
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Lots of good info can be found here:
http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/vwtdsae.shtml
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From the SAE paper re: 4 cylinder turbo diesel used in VW
A number of changes were made to the crankshaft. The front end of the crankshaft was reinforced. The highly loaded crank-pin, at cylinder 4, has its radius induction hardened and the oil hole ground while radii at the other pins are roll-hardened. A torsional vibration damper is used.
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From the SAE paper re: 4 cylinder turbo diesel used in VW
A number of changes were made to the crankshaft. The front end of the crankshaft was reinforced. The highly loaded crank-pin, at cylinder 4, has its radius induction hardened and the oil hole ground while radii at the other pins are roll-hardened. A torsional vibration damper is used.
im sure that its talking about the AAZ tho..
no 1.6 diesels came with a harmonic balancer.
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The SAE paper doesn't cover AAZ. Only the 1.6L TD, and the 5 cylinder TD used in Audi.
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ive never seen a 1.6 with a torsional vibration damper.. (someone correct me if im wrong)
only the audi 2.0 5 bangers, and the AAZ.
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Wow! you guys have been really helpful inside of my first day on here!
Its unusual that I get such a decent solid response when posting and idea I had on a forum, so many times I have gotton ripped off a right stripe and told 'why bother, put a 1.9 in it'
This is cool, so what we have basically said is I need to get new bearings for my turbo, bolt it on and add a tiny bit more fueling, then spend my money on an EGT gauge and just dont give it death all the time :)
with regards to the weight thing I did a bit of reasearch:
2008 seat Ibiza =
1075kg kerb weight
144lb/ft torque
79bhp(80ps?)
0-62mph - 12.8 seconds
2009 mk6 Golf =
1268kg unladen ( think that counts as curb weight?)
170lb/ft torque
89bhp (90ps?)
0-62mph - 12.9 seconds
so I am a bit confused as you why I dont feel the pull! in theory with the same 0-62 time you'd expect it ( I mean 0.1 sec is hardly going to make a big difference)
The mk3 I am putting it in on the otherhand is around 1300kg (cant find specific weights) which means 90PS is probably what I need to aim for.
So I guess now I just need to make up the flange to take my turbo and rebuild it :) then I'll need a Diesel gearbox as I dont think a petrol one is going to be what I need!
The other question is by just whacking a turbo/intercooler on would at least 80bhp/144lb/ft be fairly easy to accomplish?
Cheers guys :)
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a harmonic balancer came on my 1.6td engine
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ive never seen a 1.6 with a torsional vibration damper.. (someone correct me if im wrong)
only the audi 2.0 5 bangers, and the AAZ.
All 1.6TDs that I've seen came with one.
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I think stock 1.6 TD has like 72-75hp and 98-101tq. 80/144 will be a bit more of a challenge... Bigger cold air intake, big exhaust (2.25"-2.5") with no muffler, lotta fuel, and more boost. But... More heat will come from that... I think a 1.6IDI TD in a 2400+ (???) Car will be deathly slow. I just tore a td out of an mk2, and even in that shell it was a slug.
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Well Andrew I can only assume you have done a butt-ton of mods to that engine when you say well-suped. I don't think a stock 1.6TD with an inter-cooler will be a performer in a heavy vehicle. Still pretty sluggish in stock form in my 84..
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ive never seen a 1.6 with a torsional vibration damper.. (someone correct me if im wrong)
only the audi 2.0 5 bangers, and the AAZ.
All 1.6TDs that I've seen came with one.
ok, then what is it? its supposed to be a harmonic balancer isnt it?
all ive ever seen is the 1.6's with a pulley on the crank sprocket..
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Yes, it's a harmonic balancer. Stock on all 1.6TDs.
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I think stock 1.6 TD has like 72-75hp and 98-101tq. 80/144 will be a bit more of a challenge... Bigger cold air intake, big exhaust (2.25"-2.5") with no muffler, lotta fuel, and more boost. But... More heat will come from that... I think a 1.6IDI TD in a 2400+ (???) Car will be deathly slow. I just tore a td out of an mk2, and even in that shell it was a slug.
yeah what I dont want is to pitching the wrong odds on my engine, I have a 1.8 petrol which isnt mustang fast but its not bad, so to stick in a Diesel, it could do with a bit of poke.
Its a shame 1.9TD lumps seem to go for so much money.
I mean basically What I see is an engine that I dont really want to waste, I'd rather not sell it off cheap or throw it away if for minimal spend some improvements can be made to make something equal to my 1.8 petrol engine.
The current 1.8 petrol is 90bhp @5500rpm & 107lb.ft @2500rpm with a 12.1 0-62mph time. Unladen weight (5door) 2348lbs/1065kg
The 1.9 diesel came in diesel/TD/TDi with these specs:
1.9 - 64bhp/91lbs.ft 17.6 0-62mph
1.9TD - 75bhp/110lbs.ft 15.1 0-62mph
1.9TDi - 90bhp/149lbs.ft 12.8 0-62mph
so basically my mk3 golf has some figures which I would like to retain. The 1.4TDi in my dads Seat is 79bhp/144lbs.ft and that car weighs about the same as my golf, but the 1.4TDi is a really expensive engine for a 'project'!
Judging by the figures there is no way I can go diesel without losing performance, unless I can crack the power output of the 1.9TDi, in which case I may as well just put a TDi in!
The stock 1.6 NA is like 54bhp and around about 64lbs.ft of torque or something daft, its a really lazy engine!
Anyway enough of the stacking the odds against my idea, now its time to overcome the problems.
So we start with a 1.6NA, put a turbo on it but heat might be a problem. Will Piston oil squirters give me a good helping hand with this? Whats the best way to fit them? is it a total engine strip down or can it be done by means of just removing the sump? to much swarf I guess from the installation. I have also heard of people installing different types, there seems to be ones which have 2 holes to install, 1 for the squirter tube, the 2nd for a clamp, then there are also ones which just seem to screw in?(are they a banjo bolt type thing?)
Oil pump I will be fitting is one from a TD 1600 so oil pressure shouldnt be an issue (as currently it has a Vanagon Diesel oil pump)
Obviously a big intercooler to cool inlet charge air will also lower heat issues with the engine. Now as previously mentioned too big may create lag, but will it be a massive amount? the cooler I have is about 2ft square and 1" thick so can sit infront of the radiator easy enough.
I have a K&N panel filter which I hope will be enough for the Turbo to easily draw through.
I was thinking of mostly using the stock petrol exhaust syste, taking the CAT convertor out and replacing it with a bypass tube, but then there are 2 rear silencers, the end one is a 'sporty' unit slightly more free flowing than a stock one, then there is a stock mid one. Pipe work is 2" end to end pretty much.
I guess the final things really is the fuel pump thing, it was mentioned that the thingy turbo diesels normally have on top (a barnicle?) is for fuel system advance, so surely while I apparently can get away without having one, it would be better to run with one for acceleration reasons?
Its fairly tempting to just bung a VR6 in but this needs to be insurable for the G/F lol and as shes at university, I figured a decent diesel setup would work to her advantage not having to put fuel in so often!
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An intercooler, 14psi of boost, fuel to reach a max of 1,200° and a free-flowing 2.5" exhaust will get you performance above that of the 1.8 (90hp, 107tq).
You can't really add the squirters without pulling the engine apart. Along with the squirter installation in the block you also need to use TD pistons or notch the non-turbo ones and I can't imagine how you could do that with the engine in place without creating horrendous amounts of metal bits in the engine.
I would never use a K+N filter on any engine of mine. They do not filter well enough.
I know why you dont use K&N filters on new cars, the oil filtration knackers Airflow sensors! but on an old diesel it will be fine :) They filter 'ok' but I definately dont think they are a lifetime product like they say they are, I think at the time 5 years ago however there wasnt much in the way of other stock replacement panel filters available at the price. The foam 'Ramair' panels are better, VW even use the foam ones in volkswagen motorsport!
I'll have to look at rebuild costs as I think it probably can hurt to check it all over, but I am of the opinion if its not broken and works fine how it is, dont take it to bits because you can guarentee it will never be the same again! I think I have heard about notching the pistons as well. If I could get another 1.6TD as cheap as what I bought for my bus would be so easy, but that was a in the right place at the right time situation!
So I guess its time to look on ebay for EGT gauges and a rebuild kit for my Garret GT15 turbo! Not sure it will do 14PSI or not, I think it was 7-9psi when used on the 1.7TD it came off.
Something I have noticed while on ebay tonite is the fact that Peugeot use bosch injector pumps on their Turbo Diesels but they dont have the fuel advance barnicle on the top, its just a standard pump!
I have never known of a slow peugeot!