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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: ianders on January 26, 2011, 11:07:04 am
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Hey Everyone
I think i did something bad to my engine. This is a '91 jetta Ecodiesel. Normally this is a very powerful car, easy to start and not too loud of smokey. But not things have changed. Here is what happened.
We had a cold spell up here in New England and I tried to start my car in single digit (F) temperatures. I don't have a block heater, but have never really needed it on this car. It wouldn't start an I figured that the fuel must be gelled, so I left it for a warmer day. I was able to get it running today with a lot of cranking and a few very short blasts of starting fluid, which I never use if i can avoid it. It seemed to be much harder to start than usual for 30 deg. weather. Once I got it running though, it was way louder than usual. It is much more clattery, like the normal noise has been doubled. It seems to have lost some low end power and the idle is a bit rougher, but not undrivable. I am worried about the noise though. I have not had a chance to get it into my garage yet, but I would like to crack the injector lines and check each cylinder separately, and do a compression test.
Does anyone have an idea of what I may have done?
Thanks
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i think the starting fluid is what killed it. were you sure to disconnect your glow plugs before using ether?
ive killed a VW (well, Audi) with starting fluid before. basically same symptoms as your engine..
good luck with your injured engine..
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That's what i was hoping I wouldn't hear. I didn't disconnect them, but I made sure to heat them before spraying the fluid. They should not have been energized while there was ether in the system. Did you take your engine apart after it happened? What specifically was the damage?
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In engines with this high a compression ratio, ether literally hammers the dog poop out of the rings destroying their ability to seal. Additionally, the precombustion cups can and will literally blow out of their position into the cylinder, sometimes crackiing the surrounding head material as they exit.
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Ether will not damage your engine in small amounts. The key word is small. Putting too much in there though will cause trouble. There are ether assist systems built specifically for large diesels starting in cold climates. I have seen the timing belt jump a tooth or two with especially hard starting like what you experienced. Why don't you check your timing first before you panic? Injector checks like you suggest is a good idea too. There may be a stuck or blocked injector. It almost sounds like your fuel system froze with water. It's not the best for the injection system but only terminal over a period of time.
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Doug's timing check recommendation would be where I would start. Sounds exactly like the belt skipped a tooth. Over advanced timing will make them incredibly difficult to start, as well. And it will cause the loud clattery crap you mentioned. That is exactly where I would start.
Verify Crankshaft and Camshaft timing at TDC. Then verify the pump sprocket mark is lined up with the mark on the backing plate.
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Great, that is encouraging. As soon as the snow melts enough to find my garage door again that is the first thing I will check.
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Ether will not damage your engine in small amounts. The key word is small. Putting too much in there though will cause trouble. There are ether assist systems built specifically for large diesels starting in cold climates. I have seen the timing belt jump a tooth or two with especially hard starting like what you experienced. Why don't you check your timing first before you panic? Injector checks like you suggest is a good idea too. There may be a stuck or blocked injector. It almost sounds like your fuel system froze with water. It's not the best for the injection system but only terminal over a period of time.
Large trucks don't generally have a prechamber either though.
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That's what i was hoping I wouldn't hear. I didn't disconnect them, but I made sure to heat them before spraying the fluid. They should not have been energized while there was ether in the system. Did you take your engine apart after it happened? What specifically was the damage?
when using ether on a diesel, you are *ALWAYS* supposed to cycle right thru the glow plugs, not let them warm up at all.
spray ether, and then hit the key as fast as possible. do not let glows come on..
the glow plugs ignite the ether way too soon. alot sooner than just the compression..
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The stock glow plug relays cause the glow plugs to have power when the key is in the start position, regardless of temperature. If you don't want them to come on at all, which you shouldn't if you use ether, disconnect the relay, or the glow plug fuse. Only way to be sure.
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Large trucks don't generally have a prechamber either though.
The stock glow plug relays cause the glow plugs to have power when the key is in the start position, regardless of temperature. If you don't want them to come on at all, which you shouldn't if you use ether, disconnect the relay, or the glow plug fuse. Only way to be sure.
I agree completely. The poor sod needs some encouragement for sure. Everyone's interpretation of a small amount is different. A direct injection diesel is definitely more robust internally. The mind can run wild with what ifs so I like to take the KISS approach looking for the obvious.
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if you spray a tiny shot of ether in the intake, and then run and immediately hit the key, it wont even have time to cycle the plugs on..
cause the plugs dont burn when the engine is cranking..
and if they get power for a whole quarter of a second, that aint gonna make enough heat to matter..
like i said, i used to just give my audi a tiny shot, then run and hit they key. wouldnt let the plugs warm up. the glow light would come on just long enough to go back out, then it would fire up.
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compression..
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what about compression?
diesels have a LOAD of it..
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The glow plug relay supplies power to the plugs any time key is turned to start. Whether it be a second or not, the longer you crank, the longer it supplies power. Now, I got this information from my Bentley. I didn't believe it, so I tested it, and even with a warm engine my plugs had power when cranking the engine.
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the plugs ARE NOT supposed to be energized while cranking.. all my diesels, the plugs go off the second you hit the key..
the starter is supposedly the only thing drawing off the battery while cranking. or its supposed to be that way..
even my cars that have properly functioning glow plug timers, the light goes out as soon as you move the key to start position..
speaking of mk1s..
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wouldnt it being low on compression cause it to start harder and take more to start and be more noisy?
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Relay terminal 50: Power in start position only
Supplies 12v to the glow plug bus bar when starter is engaged.
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no..
having worn cylinder bores will cause the low compression (hard cold starting) and the increased noise (piston slap)
but being that his engine was FINE before the ether, leads me to believe that the ether injured this engine..
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Relay terminal 50: Power in start position only
Supplies 12v to the glow plug bus bar when starter is engaged.
that is most definitely retarded..
in my mind, i dont want my plugs on when im cranking.. those things pull like 50-60 amps right off the batt. and the starter needs basically the rest of the batteries reserve..
i just remembered that i have not owned a VW with a FUNCTIONING glow plug timer in a very LONG time..
i swear they turned off with the key in start, but i could be mixing up the VW with the Datsun, i know the plugs on that thing kick off when you crank it..
thanks for pointing that out tho, about terminal 50..
sorry for my mix up..
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The problem is this: when they turn off, they have already started to cool down. Yes, they got hot, fast. Mine reach 1900F in 4 seconds. They're supposed to stay hot, but if they're still on when cranking its only going to be better. A battery with 650CCA should be more than powerful enough to spin the motor over at 150 rpms and power the glow plugs for a good long time before it runs out.
I have a manual switch on mine, and I don't let go of it until the engine's running. Even my crappy 8 year old battery still has enough juice to crank it while glowing for 25 or 30 seconds. ;)
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I dont think 150rpm is enough to fire these diesels off.
Also on my bro's TD, we glow for 10 seconds (manual glow relay) and keep them on while cranking. Usually fires on the first crank and runs great after it starts.
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150rpm is the minimum cranking speed per the protraining manual. It says if it isn't at least 150, you must make it so. :P
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I dunno.. 400rpm is more ideal.. maybe if it were +30c out it would start at 150rpms.. but not anywhere near freezing..
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i glow my plugs 6 seconds, pull the CS, fire the engine, then glow for about another 4-6 seconds.
im as easy on my battery as i can be with everything else, because my amplifiers are most definitely not nice to my batt and alt..
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ROR, you're partly correct, the glow light does go off and the GP's begin the afterglow stage.
I put a ford starter solenoid on the firewall when pimped my GP's (the stock GP relay powers it) and I can hear it clunking every time it cycles, it clunks once at the start of glow and clunks once more at the end of glow.
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i got a ford constant duty solenoid too.. just wired it up to a switch, and power from it straight to the glow plug fuse.. there not completely pimped, but slightly pimped.
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Okay everyone, I'm going to bring this post back to the original issue. Forget about the glow plugs.
I finally freed the car from the snow drift that had engulfed it and got the thing into my basement today. I took off the timing belt cover and valve cover, and sure enough, the ether had caused the timing belt to skip a tooth. I reset the timing, tensioned the belt, and she fired up right away. No more death rattles or smoke! I wish all problems could be fixed so easily! Thanks for the advice.
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you got super DUPER lucky..
usually ether is not so friendly..