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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: dyoungen on December 07, 2010, 05:55:30 pm
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While driving my 1985 Diesel Jetta this afternoon, I had something happen I"m not sure what to make of. First I heard a buzzer sound for a second. Then later I heard the buzzer start and the "OIL" light came on. I pulled off the road and checked the oil, which wasn't down but just low on the stick. I filled up the oil till it registered at the top of the marked area. Everything seemed fine. Later the buzzer and light came on again so I shut it down again. I pulled off the cap on top of the valve cover and there seemed to be plenty of oil splashing around in the head. The engine temprature was where it always is and nothing seems out of place. I might add that the Glo Plug light comes on every once in a while steady and sometimes flashing. Are the idiot lights living up to their name, "idiot lights"? BTW, the outside temp was around 35 degrees, not hot.
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Does the Buzzer go off as you get in the higher rpm range? If it does you likely have low oil pressure and it's time for a rebuild
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It's not uncommon for the oil buzzer/light circuit to give trouble. You need to get ahold of a mechanical gauge and temporarily, or better yet, permanently install it so you know what's going on with your oil pressure.
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I drive an 85 turbo diesel jetta, although its stuck waiting for injectors right now, and a clutch job :)
In my limited experience, I got mine with shredded intermediate bearings which I have since replaced.
I had that oil buzzer go off on me on a sudden right turn at 20mph one day, but it continued when I hit the next straight away so I pulled over. I had some oil with me because the car was new to me and when running it had a constant drip. This is the way I picked it up and I drove it for a few weeks so I assume it took that long to be low on oil.
It went away with a quart fill in that moment, and I was watching things more and it never did it again, either on freeway runs or an a up/down 20 mile hill ride.
I have not relaunched the car yet, but I atleast got rid of the leaks and have replaced the main seals for the heck of it thus far.
So that probably doesn't help you at all, for all I know mine don't work properly :)
As far as that glowplug light, I had seen a little of what you describe but after reading these forums a bit, I knew I was going to "pimp" my glowplug system, and also I totally deleted my water seperator unit under the passenger side backseat underneath the car. I then started fresh with new soft lines from the tank to the solid plastic rails under the car, and soft lines inside the engine bay. For me I had to do this because everything was original with leaks, etc.
I cut the wiring harness and taped up each wire lead and zipe tied them up. I don't get that light now unless its the typical wait to start phase.
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Full dynamic oil pressure warning system troubleshooting info here:
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=28
Pictures and everything!
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Thanks for the links and info. I"m going to get a "real" gage this weekend and check the oil pressure. I had a simular problem with my 87 F250 Diesel. The gages back then were worthless and I thought I had major oil problems. After I got the oil pressure gage I found my pressure was fine. When the buzzer and light came on I was going straight and level, cruising about 60. Nothing else showed any problems. After the light and buzzer went off I continued driving and didn't have any broblems. If I find I have pump problems, does the oil pan just drop down and the oil pump come out with any problems or is there anything in the way? Oil pan gasket, anything else that needs replacing? What pressure am I going to be looking for, 50 cold, 20 hot?
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I don't know the pressures involved and I haven't installed a manual gage myself.
BUT I did drop the pan once and am doing it again right now :)
There are a good amount of I think 10mm bolts to undo for the actual pan. A couple bolt into the tranny side of the engine that are hard to get to. Take your time with extensions and swivle sockets to get a good bite to get those loose. It was hell for me to get those started when it came to install them. Those 2 go into that sides crank seal carrier.
The turbo return line has a flare connection at the oil pan. Hold a wrench opposite of your torque on the bolt when taking that bolt on/off so you don't put all the force on the weld to the pan! No idea if it would hold but I wouldn't take a chance.
Once that pan is off(oh and of course take all your oil out first), on mine there is a plastic flared piece that pops onto the main shaft of the oil pump tube. It pops off by hand, then you can get to a couple bolts that are easy to get to, then the whole thing comes out. You can then seperate that piece from the main gears of the pump if you wanted to clean everything and the screen out.
I would imagine you are going to need to take the vacuum pump out though in order to mate the end of the shaft that connects with its shaft so it will turn the vacuum pump. You would just realign after oil pump install then drop it back down into place. There is a seal there you would probably want to replace.
NOW some advice. When I did this I found the dreaded metal bits in the oil at the bottom of the pan. Shavings and chunks in the screen from the intermediate shaft bearings. You can search on this topic. My jetta was new to me at 200,000 miles and they didn't make it, so I had to replace. This is a whole other project which isn't that fun with the engine in the car and you have to be carefull because those things are thin and you can scrape the finish off with a hand tool easy.
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I got the 10mm socket to use with the 1/4" drive ratchet and was able to get the 2 back bolts out. Now I"m waiting for the weather to get nicer. Where would be the best place to get an oil pump and the gaskets? I figure on getting the replacement parts so I can drop the pan and IF everything looks ok replace the pump and gaskets and put her back on the road. Before I order the parts I do plan on dropping the pan to see if the problem is just a clogged oil pickup screen. The odometer shows 206,000 miles and it had quit before I got it so it might be anything.
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I found tons of rtv in my screen from the other guy. As well as the intermediate shaft bearing shavings. Looked like he made a valve cover gasket out of the stuff it was so thick. It was also in the cooling system, crap smeared all over the mating surfaces on the water pump, flanges, etc.
I have been ordering from http://www.autohausaz.com because they offer free shipping on orders over $50. Sometimes it would seem though that I cannot find everything.
Another good one is http://www.germanautoparts.com/
You would have to hunt around on each site to see what is the best deal.
When I took mine all apart, except the screen, everything looked pretty darn clean. None of the gears were scored and the oil pump rod that drives the vacuum pump seemed fine as well, so I put mine all back together to use.
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Today I droped the oil pan and the screen didn't seem plugged. There was some stuff up inside the screen area but there wasn't enough to block the oil flow. I did find some small gritty stuff in the the bottom of the oil pan including the big piece of something that looks like a bearing. Although it looks like a bearing, it doesn't have the wear marks like a bearing would have. It is thin less than .050 thick. It was just laying on the bottom. The motor has over 206,000 miles and I"m thinking of replacing the oilpump just to be on the safe side. I can't tell if the motor has ever been gone thru so I"m wondering, replace the oil pump and give it a try? I was looking at one of the parts places online and am thinking of going with the upgraded oil pump, This is the original equipment pump from the later 2.0L engines.
Or should I stay with the original 1.8 oil pump? There's $30.00 differance but if it'll fix what ails the motor, it'll be worth it. Below are pictures of the "unknown" thing from the oil pan.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn107/dyoungen/P1010097.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn107/dyoungen/P1010096.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn107/dyoungen/P1010095.jpg
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I"m going to get a "real" gage this weekend and check the oil pressure.
When you measured your oil pressure with a gauge what pressures did you see??
The service manual has the procedure for miking an oil pump for wear... you might rather save your money for an intermediate shaft bearing... which is what that piece kinda looks like to me, and will absolutely cause low oil pressure issues downstream of a oil pump that's working just fine. ;)
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I'll have to admit, I didn't check the oil pressure before I dropped the oil pan. I figured that if the buzzer and light both came on, something had to be wrong like the screen being plugged. The pan gasket looks like it's in great shape so I think I"ll just put the pan back on and get an oil pressure gage like I should have before I took the pan off. Can the intermediate shaft bearing come out in that big of a piece? The piece of metal doesn't look like it has any wear marks.
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Unfortunately the buzzer and light can come on with perfectly fine oil pressure and a clean pickup screen... per the URL I linked above.
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The intermediate "bearing" isn't what you would think being new to these cars. I learned this as well when I tackled the issue. They call them a bearing but it is actually what I would call 2 very thin races that are very delicate! No pointy tools to drive these things in or you will leave a score mark and gouge the material before you know it!
And those pics DO like the intermediate bearings. What you will find is if you carefully support and take out the intermediate shaft from the engine(my jetta had to drop the engine a tad on that side to get it to clear wheel bay) is there are more flakes like that where it seats in the bearing. Some of my pieces stuck to the shaft since it was oily and then I was able to carefully pick out the other cracked pieces through the hole.
It is like a top layer of paint or coating that appeared to have broken away from the bearing, still leaving a whole piece pressed into the engine. I guess that leads to play and all of these bad things people talk about on these forums :) And don't just get the shaft bare and try and wiggle it. Mine had most of the pieces jammed in there so it wasn't obvious by moving it side to side. I had noticed some wierd tracking in that shaft pulley when I had the engine running though! I did not know at the time it was a serious issue, luckily I then put my car up on jacks and have been rebuilding it for the past few months.
I think you must head the advice of the awesome people on these forums and stop driving the car and tackle this project and look at all the relative parts before rebuilding everything.
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What are the "intermediate bearings" listed as? I looked at both links and didn't see anything listed as that. What is involved with replacing the intermediate bearing? I do think I"ll check the oil pressure before going into the engine as I"ve had the dash lights give me some strange indications when nothing was wrong but I do want to cover all of the bases.
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here is a link to an etailer:
http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Engine/14/3
i got a cross referenced part from my local kragen in a couple of days. sorry i don't have the receipt, if you searched various forums you will probably come across something if you must buy locally.
i had to rock the engine down on my jetta so i could pull the shaft completely out. again if you search the forums you will find some guides on how to do it. it is annoying, it was a day project for me to take my time but hopefully this is past me for now. my car had like 200,000 original miles so i am not sure how often these have to be replaced, or if its because people tighten the timing belts too much.
they are cheap enough and once you learn how to do them, maybe its cheap insurance to do them every 100,000 miles or so?
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Just a mention of the oil - I have a 16V gasser that I can't run 10W30 in because the oil light starts coming on at idle. In a diesel I alway run 40 weight oil something like 5W40 now (cold) and 15W40 above 0°C temps - diesel oils either way. Just a note that in an higher mileage engine, oil weight does help somewhat. I always find in a diesel NA I get about 60 psi on a VDO electric gauge at speed (60 mph or so) and about 40 at speed in a turbo.
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guess im doing good then. cause i get about ~35psi at idle, WARM.. dont even know how much @ 60mph.
my last engine (1.5 TD) had about 6 psi at idle, warm.. just enough to move the gauge needle off Zero.
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I had a TD years ago that did a solid 1.5psi at hot idle, and 6 at any higher RPM. I put about 30K miles on it that way.
The cheap aftermarket rebuilt head, after 100K, had so much valve/guide clearance if you topped it off with oil quickly (which you did, since it consumed it, a lot), when you first fired it up it'd sound funny. Draw your own scary conclusions. That ole motor was a trooper, still have it, yet to pull it or the head apart and rebuild em.
I think the IMS bearings wear as much from over-snug timing belts as anything, though I've been blessed enough to never have em crap out what the rest of the motor wasn't crapped out to match.
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Ok, another question. Where do I need to put the oil pressure age, the oil filter switch or the switch on the head?
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i always put it at the head. its easiest to get to.
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If you're just temporarily installing it to check for issues the factory spec is given for a gauge installed at the oil filter flange.
If you're wiring up a dash gauge you can use either spot...one theory is that the head is the best spot because that's where pressure is at its worst as the engine wears and/or overheats.
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If you're just temporarily installing it to check for issues the factory spec is given for a gauge installed at the oil filter flange.
If you're wiring up a dash gauge you can use either spot...one theory is that the head is the best spot because that's where pressure is at its worst as the engine wears and/or overheats.
thats why i like my gauge at the head, cause if theres low pressure at the head, it might not be quite so low at the turbo, and bottom end bearings..
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Just thought I'd do an update on the oil light buzzer question. Finally teh weather is better and I got some time off from work to install the oil pressure gage. After adding the Delo 400 and installing the gage in the head the pressure gage showed just over 75lbs cold at idle. I let it warm up to operating temp and the lowest it showed was 1/2 way between 25 and 0 at idle fully warmed up. I revved the engine up when it was warmed up and the gage registered just under 50 lbs. I took it for a drive after it was warmed up and everything seemed fine. Driving up my driveway the buzzer sounded off and the light came on. I only had the gage on temperarily so I don't know what the pressure was when the light/buzzer sounded off. Sounds to me like I have problems in the light/buzzer and not the engine.
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Well, the verdict is in and the oil pressure is ok. Not great but ok. I temperarily mounted the pressure gage so I could run a few miles down the road and after 75lbs at startup it ran between 50 and 25 lbs cruising down the road at 60 mph. At idle it stayed between 25 and 0 (I'd say about 10 lbs). The gremlins are back in the wiring, again. ;D
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Well update number II. After driving longer distances I see there might be slightly lower oil pressures. Starting in this cold weather the gage, which I perminently mounted on the dash shows around 70 lbs in freezing weather, aka 28 degrees. After getting up to operating temps it will run about 25/35 lbs till I get home, 20+ miles and will idle at 10 lbs. Also I'd add that when the buzzer and light come on the oil pressure is usually around 20/25lbs. Not always but sometimes they still both come on and the gage never drops just stays the same when the buzzer and light comes on.
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Full dynamic oil pressure warning system troubleshooting info here:
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=28
Pictures and everything!
Vince- Several weeks ago I tracked down the source of a low oil pressure scenario not covered anywhere it seems. The oil seal in the bottom of the rotary vane style vacuum pump gear. Completely blown out. Went from 6 psi at a hot idle, to 18 psi with swapping out the $6-at-the-dealer-still-available oil seal! During the thorough check, I dismantled the whole vacuum pump. Oil pressure looks to be fed directly up the shaft from the oil pump. (Not even filtered oil!) Under the top cover of the vacuum pump, in the middle of the shaft, is a metal screen that needs to come out, because on 3 that I checked they were mostly plugged with carbon/gasket debris/etc. My guess is the screen became plugged, too much pressure on the seal and there goes the oil pressure. Without the screen, no problem. It simply returns the unfiltered oil back to the sump. Considering it's a quick 5 minute check/replacement, I thought maybe you should add this into your oil pressure troubleshooting page???
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Good idea... I habitually change that seal and so have never had it impact me, but as you point out it's an easy one to miss.
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not to thread jack, but i've been having an issue too. my gauge reads about 80psi at start up and drops down to about 25-30 at idle when it's warmed up. my oil pressure light only comes on when the boost kicks in, and when the oil pressure gauge gets about 60psi. when the oil pressure drops down, the light turns off. could this be crossed wires or something? the engine was swapped to a 1.6td from germany (not by me) and has the ceramic fuses so i'm not sure if this is original wiring because my caddy has blade fuses. the car is a 1982 jetta.
and i don't think the w terminal is hooked up because the upshift indicator in the dash doesn't turn on ever.
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When you followed the step-by-step troubleshooting instructions from the link posted in the first page of this thread what did you discover? ;D
Actually.. since you have an 82 chances are you only have a single low pressure sensor...if you find you don't have a high pressure sensor at the oil flange just ignore those parts of the procedure.
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When you followed the step-by-step troubleshooting instructions from the link posted in the first page of this thread what did you discover? ;D
Actually.. since you have an 82 chances are you only have a single low pressure sensor...if you find you don't have a high pressure sensor at the oil flange just ignore those parts of the procedure.
heh.. i'll have to answer that one later..
thanks for all the great advice and write ups BTW.