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General Information => General => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on November 23, 2010, 08:01:11 pm
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I had this ingenious idea brought forth to me from a knowledgeable source.
He told me he has seen a certain diesel engine with a few gp's or something of the sort in a coolant neck that goes in to the cabin.. thus preheating the coolant entering the heater core.. How would I go about doing this? Would i just thread some duraterms in to the coolant neck? an aluminum one? how would their tip react with the coolant?
Pretty awesome idea if you ask me..
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ALH engines already have this. There's three glowplugs on the head coolant flange.
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yes, but are they just normal gp's that we use ? or are the specific? Will our $11 Duraterms be up for this with there sefl regulating ability to be left on? and having them surrounded in a cold liquid should prolong the amount of time they can be left on for no?
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As far as I know, they are the same kind as the cylinder GP's. I think only manual trans ALH's had them. I think they were intended just as a way to heat the coolant going to the heater core faster in very cold weather. I don't think they were very effective cuz later engines replaced them with an electrical heater next to the heater core. They also required a more powerful alternator (120A?).
I don't think it would be too hard to fit them onto an earlier engine.
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I don't think they were very effective cuz later engines replaced them with an electrical heater next to the heater core. They also required a more powerful alternator (120A?).
Glow plugs just don't seem to make enough heat, or else the lack the surface area to transfer the heat.. I tried this on the cold blooded bunny with hope of being able to run WVO in colder weather... In this particular situation I had better luck putting them in the fuel system.. Less volume I suppose..
It most definitely requires a heavier alternator.. I ended up with a 100 amp alt to keep things powered..
If you're just looking for faster heat without the block heater, one of those electric heaters you plug into the cig lighter seems more effective.. Not that much more unless you molest it though...
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Glow plugs just don't seem to make enough heat, or else the lack the surface area to transfer the heat.. I tried this on the cold blooded bunny with hope of being able to run WVO in colder weather... In this particular situation I had better luck putting them in the fuel system.. Less volume I suppose..
X2
6 hours in summer night it can`t hit 60 c on open return. Now Webasto 0.25 lit/h
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ok now on this extra heating element? something easily attained in a junkyard? Also I will be doing this (if I can figure out a good way) on my TDI swap in my 81. thanks guys
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I wonder if there's any sort of 12v water heater for say a camper or boat.. You'd still need some crazy power to run it..
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It would be worth the loss of economy to run it while the car was still heating up though... Kind of like that new Tankless hot water system?!? Instant hot hot hot water.. hmmm could help with engine warm-up too.. lol
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Something like this could be the ticket...
http://www.missouriwindandsolar.com/Water_Heater_Elements.html (http://www.missouriwindandsolar.com/Water_Heater_Elements.html)
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Brett-a-saurus, how would i go about making that work in my system.. ? I cannot figure out a way.. in the overflow?? Doesn't its feed that goes back in to the system then run in to the core? or back to the WP?
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My thoughts at this point would be to fabricate something similar to a tank style block heater.. Then either plumb it into the heater return line (after the tee for the expansion tank), or the bypass hose that comes off the head to the water pump.. Heater line would be easier to work with, but you'd have to make the heat is set to hot for it to work..
I wish I had a good cad program.. Lemme try and draw something up.. I can explain better with pics and props..
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Could be done easily using hardware store pipe fittings
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm124/maxfax3/VW/12vblockheater.jpg)
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ahhhh!! I SEE I SEE! Make a separate chamber of sorts that will have a constant coolant flow through it.. I diiig it.
Thanks Brett lol, should be an artist ;)
I think it would work best being plumbed in to the line that feeds the core no? between head and heater core? it would be very easy as there is about 8" or so of space between the valve for the core and where it exits the head.
Hmm upon further examining a picture of my engine bay. It seems the heater core is fed by the metal coolant tube, and its coolant returns to the head on the drivers side.. Hmm.. lets see here..
Can see here the feed line is most certainly the coolant hardline;
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/100_0260.jpg)
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also mind you their 600w system will run about 50A on the alternator.. but with the TDI and its 120A alt.. Running this and the cabin fan (another what.. 20A?) I don't think it really poses a problem eh? 70A should put it right in its sweet spot..
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The coolant flows out of the head and returns though the metal line down to the water pump..
I guess where you put it would depend on your goal..
Putting it between the head and the heater core, there it would put more heat to the cabin, but remember that the heat lost in the cabin is heat not going to the engine..
My goal was to get the engine warm faster so I could burn WVO (which is illegal ;D)... I'd probably mount the cooler nice and low (like under the radiator or something), cut the steel line after the tee for the expansion tank, run rubber line to the heater, and rubber line from the heater to the water pump..
With the proper power inverter and some sort of temp control the thing could double as a plug in tank style block heater..
Either way would accomplish something though.. I guess the biggest question would be if it would transfer heat fast enough to mane a difference...
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Is that a soda can under your IP??
70 or so amps ought to do ya, but wouldn't leave a lot of breathing room.. Cold, dark, snowy = wipers, lights, blower.. A real amp or volt gauge wouldn't hurt.. You'd at least be able to monitor what is happening and kill the heater if need be..
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well their site assumes you will be using this for a larger system.. such as a water tank (5-15 gallons) so I think a 1-2 gallon system should be no sweat for it.. I would mount it for cabin heating more than engine heating. TDI's keep more heat in the combustion chamber than our old IDI's do.. plus the coolant entering the head after the core will still be plenty warm.. if not still hot. Was mainly looking at this as an option get damn near instant cabin heat to defrost the windows in the winter.
Yup thats a coke can under there, to catch my fuel leak ;) and keep it off my coolant hoses lol
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like their smallest 300w (25A) heater is still rated for 25-50 gallons.. should heat the entire engine very thoroughly and quickly.. lol
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Yeah now that I think about it, that's probably more than enough overkill for what you are doing.. Realistically you're not going to even be heating the coolant in the radiator.. I was attempting to get about 4 gallons of coolant warm enough to also get 8 gallons of wvo warm.. Not to mention the windows cleared..
I wonder in your case if it would be more efficient to find some sort of 12v heating element and mount in the heater box.. Of course heating the coolant has some additional benefits.. Either way, in your case you'd probably not need as much of a heating element, which would result in less power needed..
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I will contact them, and see if they maybe offer or can make a smaller heating element..
as I realistically only need a 10 gallon one at most.. This 300w one sounds perfect for your application Brett.
it could effectively bring all the coolant in my system up to temp very quickly, which would in turn help with warming the engine too i would think.. needs further researching :) TY for your help lol
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Install one of these & quityer***in!
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a3b4/coolant-block-heater-tdi-frostheater.htm (http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a3b4/coolant-block-heater-tdi-frostheater.htm)
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I don't want an AC unit, but that's a sweet setup. I want a unit that helps with heating the coolant entering the cabin, after the engine has started and is pumping coolant.
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Just for some data... here's a thread from TDIclub where the actual performance of the three coolant heater plugs on an ALH TDI engine was measured:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=269731
Bottom line... the three plugs warm -5C coolant to 40C 30% faster than straight idling. They draw 40-60 amps, depending on ambient, and are *not* the same part number as the engine glow plugs... although I suspect the biggest differences have to do with corrosion protection.
I'm playing a bit with mine this winter as well as I dial in my new engine...my initial impression is that they do help some... but nothing beats the heat of combustion. ;) There is only so much heat available electrically in a 12V system, which is one reason why most planes run 48V electrics.
As another aside, both my TDIs have the 750W version of the Frostheater as well... highly recommended if you've got a turbo diesel and 110V available. They install in the oil/coolant heat exchanger loop and heat the head and block uncomfortably hot to touch via convection after only a couple of hours...instant cabin heat and defogging. ;)
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One more random fact... evidently Citroen Picasso's come with a wonderful in-line 4-plug electric coolant heater in the heater core loop... here's one installed on a Suzuki:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/CitroenPicassocoolantheaterplugs.jpg)
I have no idea where one finds this part of a Citroen Picasso in North America, but it sure would make for a clean install.
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also mind you their 600w system will run about 50A on the alternator.. but with the TDI and its 120A alt.. Running this and the cabin fan (another what.. 20A?) I don't think it really poses a problem eh? 70A should put it right in its sweet spot..
not at idle.. its not making anywhere near 70 amps..
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Too mach amps for me,I try 1 GP not mach,for 4? flow is problem.Than I get air "Eberspaher" good one only 0.25 L/h ,better job is WATER Wbasto-Eberspaher i think.70 amps haw much is that in fuel
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Economy is the least of my worries with this concept. As noted, for a similar amperage draw, the water tank heating element has a much larger heating surface.. thus being way more useful for the application intended.
Actually kEvo :P Let us assume a low idle of ~750rpms, at this rpm the 120a alternator will actually in fact be putting out ~70-75a lol. I will be installing an overdrive pulley if I do this, which will raise the idle amperage to around ~100a or so. The overdrive pulley should be ok for the alternator on this setup, as my engine will never break 5000rpm's.. so the alt will never over-spin.
Just a little graph some guy put together of his findings on a 120a Bosch alternator at various engine speeds, assuming heavy heavy loads (much like I will need). The Alternator will pull 5hp from the engine at full load, I am perfectly OK with this. Also it will not be run to much with the car sitting.. more so after I have begun slowly making my way down the road. (I never fully clear my windows before i start driving lol)
(http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy301/Happy2iam/120ABoschAltPerformance.jpg)
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Drop a second battery in there for good measure.. After all, real diesels (such as an Oldsmobile) have real batteries.. :-*
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does the Oldy have dual batts?
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Drop a second battery in there for good measure.. After all, real diesels (such as an Oldsmobile) have real batteries.. :-*
I always thought having 2 batteries would be a good move. Any thoughts on where the second one would go?
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Ahh we think alike ;) I already had plans to add a second battery for sure. I had a few ideas.. If you relocated your washer bottle you could probably run another battery with the same orientation as the normal one right behind it.. As on gasser cars the intake box and fuel dizzy go here, and are close In size to a battery.. Might have to have them touching, or move the original forward.. Second thought was to run em like the F-350's with one behind each headlight. Less favourable mostly because of the long run for the second batteries juice.. However scaving in a junkyard could easily source a good dual battery harness from a ford 6.9 or 7.3... And then shorten the one end? Pretty viable option.. And to keep weight more even and junk lol.
I would probably like them on the same side as I wil need to make an intercooler mount above the trans.. And it would be to have some flatbar already there for me to branch from..
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You guys need a physics lesson. 600 watts is a very tiny heater but draws 45 amps @ 13.8 volts, which is likely to be way more than the total output of the 120 amp alternator at idle. A 600 watt coolant heater is going to take an hour to heat 2 gallons of water hot enough to heat the passenger compartment. Remember that hot water tanks are insulated. The antithesis of a heater core.
Trying to draw a continuous 70 amps + the normal load is likely to kill a 120 amp alternator in short order. Most import alternators won't run at full load for more than a few minutes before releasing the magic smoke. They are designed to charge a battery which does not take long in normal service. Many imports will fry the alternator before it can take a completely flat battery up to full charge in one long drive.
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basically, just get a block heater and be happy!
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TDI Touaregs have an aux electric heater to back up the coolant-system heater loop... big sucker the same size as the heater core:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/TDI_heater.jpg)
It draws upwards of 100 amps but sadly by all accounts on TDIclub has very little actual impact on heating the cabin, clearing windows, etc. :'(
Watts are watts unfortunately...be they electric or diesel.
Perhaps VW knew what they was doing back in the day with the tiny and super-efficient gas heaters in Beetles... man that sucker worked well. Heated up instantly, tons of heat, and only burned about 1/2 pint per hour. A friend of mine retrofitted one into his Datsun 510 one particularly cold Edmonton winter and it served him well.
'Course, they occasionally had the nasty habit of catching on fire... and since the outlet of the heater tended to be aimed at the driver's thighs... ;D
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Yeah... although I still have chipped tooth enamel from the chattering teeth one gets when a car manufacturer tries to use air exchangers to heat something aka early Beetles and vans. ;D The specific heat of air sucks in comparison to water for this task.
I suppose you *could* do exhaust -> water -> air ?
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The irony of the alternator driven options presented is the extra draw on the engine (and the resulting fuel consumption) would probably add just as much heat to the coolant as the device itself... Something to remember though - it may work out better than you might think.
In terms of alternator load, Jezzie came stock with a 60A alternator... 40A worth of glow plugs + headlights + blower fan + rear window defogger is quite a bit more than 60A. Pretty much all the replacement alternators are only rated at 45A too, so it's a good example of a system with an initial load quite a bit bigger than the alternator output, yet the alternator seems to survive ok.
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Well you see that's the thing! I don't mind the added fuel consumption, I mean on an engine that sips.. It can guzzle for all I care as long as I get quick heat ;). The idea here is not for use as a heater, or means to keep the cabin warm.. Just to get that initial warmup of the coolant! The tdi will have a hard time doing this as it is so efficient.. There is hardly any waste energy to be used as heat. This system will only be used in conjuction with the blower fan. So 60-75A total draw.. And with tthe 120 alt and underdrive pulley it will have zero issues at idle. In theory :) lol
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wouldnt you want to over drive the alt so its making more power at idle, instead of less at idle?
not like a VW diesel can really over spin an alt anyway.. thinking i would overdrive it..
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Typo lol. (Got caught up in muscle car talk where the goal is to have less hp draw from the engine ;) ) Yes have a smaller pulley on the alt (about 1/2" smaller diameter) to make it spin faster at idle, effectively bringing the idle amp output up to around 85-90a at an idle of ~950.
Theory says it should work
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Andrew, I missed your big long post back there! (ie. "Although I prefer to take a different approach WRT presentation, the gist of...")
I hear what you are saying.. I was mainly thinking of this as an option so that I did not have to worry about plugging the car in.. but I may just have to go that route.. as 110v is better than 12v ;) clearly. Only thing is that my electric bill is already $300+ per month :o Virtues of having a pool and sauna I guess? :-\ Mind you I do not pay this bill.. just saying.. my contributions will be more if I am drawing that much more electricity for my use..
Would it be the same block heater as the 1.6's require? or is it different?
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I just fired up my 1.6 N/A tonight at -15C (5F) and let the fan stay on the slowest setting, and it had the ice build-up (it has been sitting two weeks) on most of the windshield melting within like 10 minutes of idle time... I'm sure this amount would be decreased with driving, and adding heat to the coolant.. And the ice could have been gone immediately had I of scraped lol
But the TDI gives off less waste heat.. so i dunno man
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Andrew, I missed your big long post back there! (ie. "Although I prefer to take a different approach WRT presentation, the gist of...")
I hear what you are saying.. I was mainly thinking of this as an option so that I did not have to worry about plugging the car in.. but I may just have to go that route.. as 110v is better than 12v ;) clearly. Only thing is that my electric bill is already $300+ per month :o Virtues of having a pool and sauna I guess? :-\ Mind you I do not pay this bill.. just saying.. my contributions will be more if I am drawing that much more electricity for my use..
Would it be the same block heater as the 1.6's require? or is it different?
either power is expensive in canada, or you have ALOT more than just a pool and sauna drawing off that..
seems like the block heaters ive had experience with, use about $1 worth of power per night..
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well, the ones ive had experience with, were not in pocket sized 1.6 diesels..
lol..
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power is ridiculously priced in Ontario.. My house has a 400a service which comes in handy ;) (but is also a pain.. we get many many "officials" asking if we are.. you know..) Not my fault my house was built by Germans who put in all 110v wiring and 220v wiring.. along with both gas furnaces, and electric base board heating... on top of a heated indoor pool and sauna..
Andrew, what temperatures is the 45mins pre-heat effective at?