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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: jaysen71581 on November 19, 2010, 10:27:43 am
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Can having one messed up injector cause the car to not start, i have all the air out of my fuel lines and the car just cranks and cranks with no startup, i pulled the injectors this morning and ran them over to Antrim Diesel to get poptested and shim'ed if needed and they called me to tell me that the 3 i rebuilt myself were perfect and 1 was getting hung up. Also if the injectors arent torque'ed properly to the head could that cause a loss of compression and prevent it from running? Im running out of parts to buy for this car lol...
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Can having one messed up injector cause the car to not start,Nope
i have all the air out of my fuel lines and the car just cranks and cranks with no startup, i pulled the injectors this morning and ran them over to Antrim Diesel to get poptested and shim'ed if needed and they called me to tell me that the 3 i rebuilt myself were perfect and 1 was getting hung up. All I can think of at the moment.... is Elvis :o
Also if the injectors arent torque'ed properly to the head could that cause a loss of compression and prevent it from running? Nope
I'm running out of parts to buy for this car lol...
Then stop it and polish up the parts you have ;)
What comes out of the exhaust when you crank?
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White smoke
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White smoke
Good. So you have fuel going through the system, but the timing is way out.
Crank to cam is probably good, but with no attempt to burn the fuel it is being injected way after TDC.
Check with flywheel at TDC, that notch in pump pulley is at 12 o clock, or in line with middle of pump body [another ridge]. If it is, then it could be that you have cam set to #4 TDC. Check under cover for cam lobes. Alternatively, loosen #1 injector fuel line and with solenoid energised,hand crank engine to see if lobes for #1 ivalves are upright when fuel bleeds out of #1 line
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Are your glowplugs working?
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I think my pump may be out 180 degrees, i got my injectors back today and 3 were perfect 1 was getting hung up so the shop fixed that, also i probably forgot to torque the injectors to the head i could actually hand losen 2 of the 4 so i have a feeling i may have been losing compression...
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also i probably forgot to torque the injectors to the head i could actually hand losen 2 of the 4 so i have a feeling i may have been losing compression...
Most likely.........
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also i probably forgot to torque the injectors to the head i could actually hand losen 2 of the 4 so i have a feeling i may have been losing compression...
Most likely.........
Maybe you're a blacksmith ;) However it would still start. But check out the 180 degree timing error though.
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Im messing with it before work, i set the pump 180 degrees and its just cranking over, im pretty sure it wasnt out of TDC because it did start before i had my pump rebuilt, come to think of it, it hasnt run since i had the pump resealed.... I know i dont have any air in my lines, the ip solenoid is working because when i bleed the air out. Is it possible to have the motor at TDC the IP at TDC but the cam to be 180 degrees out ?
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Cam isnt out 180 degrees i visited vince's page on ip timing and looked at a few pics, its puffing out grayish smoke as it is now, at this point i am completely stumped, maybe a bad IP solenoid? Not to sure...
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Cam isnt out 180 degrees i visited vince's page on ip timing and looked at a few pics, its puffing out grayish smoke as it is now, at this point i am completely stumped, maybe a bad IP solenoid? Not to sure...
Not sure what Vinces pictures show, because not easy to show that:
You can put the crank pulley [& flywheel] to TDC twice for every complete cycle of the 4 cylinders to do their thing.
If the pump was set to one TDC and the cam the other, they would never meet.
Ie on the compression stroke for #1 the, cam lobes would be in the air, but the pump would be injecting into #4 cylinder.
Rotating engine to the next 'TDC' would make the pump squirt into #1 whilst the lobes were down and pushing the valves open, giving diesel spray into an all but atmospheric pressure, so wold not burn, but spray out of the exhaust.
If you are sure that you are not 180 degrees out, [as described above], then, you at the very least are injecting way after TDC
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They *show* both cam lobes on #1 up in the air *and* the flywheel at TDC... easy peasy. ;)
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Exactly what i did, made sure the lobes on #1 were in the air and the flywheel is at TDC. The injection pump is def at TDC. Im hoping its an electrical issue at this point like a glowplug relay.
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They *show* both cam lobes on #1 up in the air *and* the flywheel at TDC... easy peasy. ;)
As in what I said, but what test is being carried out to check correlation between #1 cam TDC and #1 pump TDC?
Pimple on the pump sprocket being at Midday may not be enough if pump has been resealed, or am I wrong?
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Im going to test that on on weds morning currently i am at work lol...
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antrim diesel where are you located? i mite be able to help you if your where i think you are.
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Hagerstown Md. and any help would be appreciated lol....
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Hagerstown Md. and any help would be appreciated lol....
I'm sure you'll be fine, after all, there are many out there who'd love to be pumping/injecting enough fuel to create white smoke ;D
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Yea, its that whole sustaining combustion thing im after lol.. ;D
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Did you reseal the pump yourself? You can be 180deg out inside the pump, the camplate goes on 2 ways, the key on the plate must line up with the woodruff key slot on the nose of the drive where the pulley goes on.
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Yea, its that whole sustaining combustion thing im after lol.. ;D
Others are repeating what I've already said, do the 180 deg out check, by checking the fuel drip from #1
@#1 TDC[lobes up] This may give you the answer. It's a 15minute job ;D
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Professionally rebuilt by a very reputable diesel shop. I havent had a day off yet, i am going to get my stepfather in on this to do the test, i have confirmed that the cam lobes are up and my fly wheel is at tdc..
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I did the test that you recommended Mark and you were right about the pump injecting way after TDC, i pulled the pulley off the injection pump but didnt see any identifying marks that would tell me what is TDC for the pump.
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Vince Waldon has a pimp timing right up ... I think it is in the FAQ
There is usually a mark on the IP bracket and on the center of the IP towards the belt end that usually gets you close to the .95-1.05 mm area.
to see if the pump is 180 out from the cam you can take the IP sproket nut off and the woodruff key should be pointing to the 10:00 position IIRC.
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Negative on the Dial indicator, i can actually do that tomorrow, which hole on that pulley, there are 2 really small ones, where should the woodruff key be in relation to the hole?
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woodruff key should align with the #1 delivery valve, which is stamped A on the pump
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If you had the timing belt off without locking the pump, then the sprocket could have moved as it likes to rest in the wrong place due to internal springs, which is incidentally in a retarded position.
On the pump sprocket is a little notch this should rest in line with a mark on the pump body just behind the sprocket.
It looks like a negative sign, and is in the centre line of the pump body if you were wishing to slice the pump in half to show the workings.
It is only not at 12 '0' clock because the pump is often leaning towards the engine. Technically,the pump could be tilted either towards the engine, or away from it, as long as the sprocket is still aligned with the mark.
The true position is affected by the hidden slot in the pump bracket, that gives only enough swing to get the pump to match up with about 2 or 3 timing belt teeth...
Hope this is clear.
Aligning the marks wil get yo very close to 1mm setting and simply slackening piump whilst running at idle you can swing the pump a little either way to get it running sweet ;D
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If you had at least the cam lock plate there would be no question as to cam position. $100 US will get you the lock plate, pin, and dial indicator set up, if you shop around. The pin can be replaced with a 10 mm deep socket but the pin is only $8 or so brand new. Nobody that plays with these cars should be w/o the timing tools at a minimum. Otherwise you just end up chasing your tail.
That being said, a deep socket can be used as a IP sprocket lock pin and a piece of bar stock or the center a Snap-On or similar combination wrench can be used as a cam lock plate in a pinch if you remove the back 2 studs.
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Ok today we made a discovery which brings up a new question, i did find the mark on the pulley and there is no question my IP is perfect, and i was looking to see if the crank was in tdc and pulled up a photo of the flywheel, are the NA diesel flywheels different then the td flywheels? the V notch in an NA diesel is 6 degrees off TDC and there is a little dibbit that is TDC, i cant find a picture of the TD at TDC at the flywheel, i rebleed the system and cranked it over and its giving us alittle bit of grayish smoke...
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Ok today we made a discovery which brings up a new question, i did find the mark on the pulley and there is no question my IP is perfect, and i was looking to see if the crank was in tdc and pulled up a photo of the flywheel, are the NA diesel flywheels different then the td flywheels? the V notch in an NA diesel is 6 degrees off TDC and there is a little dibbit that is TDC, i cant find a picture of the TD at TDC at the flywheel, i rebleed the system and cranked it over and its giving us alittle bit of grayish smoke...
The timing mark and the TDC mark on an n/a or TD are on top of each other. That is why the symbols used for the later stuff are an O and a line on top of each other. A gasser flywheel may have an 0 and a line either 3 or 6 degrees away. It sounds like the v notch represents the timing, for a gasser but, is there something else marked on the flywheel?
With cam locked what does your flywheel say? I suspect that as your engine is still rotating, cam to crank/flywheel is correct. Pump is timed to the gasser mark. Just change the pump to the TDC mark , and drive away...
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Here is what i see right now this is everything as the car is sitting in the garage at "alleged" TDC
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m100/anakinkenobe/photo.jpg)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m100/anakinkenobe/photo2.jpg)
Ears Up !!!
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m100/anakinkenobe/photo4.jpg)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m100/anakinkenobe/photo6.jpg)
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Have you checked to make sure that the Woodruff key that aligns the IP shaft and sprocket is there and intact? Or you could just check the timing with the dial indicator tool.
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Woodruff key is present and accounted for.. I could but i dont have access to it but i can get one...
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All 4 are brand new autolite plugs.
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Groovy. Next step: are your new glowplugs getting a solid 10-12 volts when the key is first turned to "on" ?
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That all looks hunky dorey, except there's one strange thing.
Is there not a mark on the outer face of the pump sprocket?
Without going outside 'cus it's too cold, why do I have a funny feeling that the mark is normally on the other side? Is there one 180 degrees away?
H'mm I'll have to go out to check. ???
Why do you think that timing is set to 6 degrees before TDC? Are you using a strobe light?
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In the first pic its kinda hard to see but the mark is on the inner side of the sprocket, ill check the voltage of the glowplugs, i know i have power because i used a testlight.
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I think we maybe on to something with the wiring, the PO had completely hacked the glowplug harness bad, ill check the voltage and post my findings, i had planned on getting another GP harness its just tough finding one unmolested..
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In the first pic its kinda hard to see but the mark is on the inner side of the sprocket, ill check the voltage of the glowplugs, i know i have power because i used a testlight.
Just been out to check. On at least one of my pumps, timing mark is on same spot front and back. Pulley webbing is set deeper looking from front than back. [this might matter if woodruff key is off set.I can't remember.[It's on the end of the pump spindle locking pulley to spindle]
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So we tested the glowplugs with a volt meter and it was at 12volts for about 3 seconds then went up to like 13-14 because the plugs cut out, next thing we did was gave it a quick shot of ether and low and behold the damn thing ran, and well, so all that helped with the timing you guys rock because that thing idled perfectly and sounded great.. Now i just need to figure out what to do about my glowplugs not staying on.
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m100/anakinkenobe/photo21.jpg)
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Try pulling the lead off of the PG temp sensor. That should give you max GP on time.
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The only wires i have hooked are the IP solenoid, the GP wire and the wire that goes to the starter, nothing else is hooked up to any sensor.
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take a wire about 2 feet long, atleast 14ga wire. and touch it to the battery + and the other end to the bus bar on the glow plugs..
what year is your car? newer mk1, and mk2 cars har 8 second plugs, older mk1 cars had 16 second plugs..
that should heat up your glow plugs enough to make it run without the use of ether.. its bad for vw diesels..
another thing.. autolite glow plugs are said to be super sketchy about the quality of their products. and are said to take longer and longer to warm up as they age.. just a warning..
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The cars an '84, the motors an '85 1.6 td but the harness is off an '84 na diesel. Maybe i could just do a push button for the glowplugs and bypass the hackjob harness,
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I was searching through some forums looking for a good walkthrough for creating a push button glowplug setup, anyone please have a safer way to do it, i have seen some scary walkthroughs.
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I was searching through some forums looking for a good walkthrough for creating a push button glowplug setup, anyone please have a safer way to do it, i have seen some scary walkthroughs.
Just take the same relay, put it in the engine bay near the fuel filter/bulkhead
Run new wires from it:
Big stuff from plugs to relay and up to battery.
Forget all the rest except a wire from a spare dash board switch, which is hot wired to ignition.
Forget wire to water temp sensor, or to starter/tach.
In 'off' position, car wont start, and is an anti theft device.
In 'on' position car will start with ignition, and stay on for full time of in built timer; except you can turn them off early by flicking switch.
Additional time can be added by flicking switch...
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Go back to Vince Waldon's site, he also has a great write up for the manual glowplugs. It ensures full available voltage to the plugs, and keeping all that voltage under the hood where it belongs lol. ;)
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I did the pimping of my glowplugs and put a led in the dash that shows when the power is hitting them vs. the in dash light.
I was going to put a manual switch in but left the stock wiring in place and let it be. Only because I did not read about people having issues with these cars controllers sticking on and burning up all the plugs?
I know on my 1985 f250 diesel, one of the first things suggested when I got the truck is to install a push button because the controllers were expensive and liked to stick on and burn everything up. Also relayed all the headlights and running lights because they liked to catch fire at the headlight switch that had too much power going through them.
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I read over the pimp your glowplugs article and liked everything i saw and it all made sense to me is a wire on the relay that says "to original glowplug harness" what wire is that, the one that went to the glowplug bar?
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Yup. :)
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I just reread your article and saw that lol... It sucks having the ADD/ADHD as an adult lol... Awsome write up, i will be heading to the parts store tomorrow and doing the harness....
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No worries at all.
BTW, the original write-up used long glass fuses.. I like 'em because you can see from a mile away if they are blown... but most auto parts shops will carry the more standard ATO fuse block that takes the same fuses as the ones under your dash. That system works well too, and there are some advantages to using the same style of fuse in both places.
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With me doing this can i just unplug the gp harness and remove it.
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Finished up the "pimping the glowplug harness" last night, i like it alot i was able to test and get to all of them, i now know that i am getting everythign i need, i think i may have a bad glowplug or 4... Autolite trash, after i did the mod and tested everything i pushed my button and heard the solenoid held the button for 15 seconds and tried to start it but it just kept cranking, next step is to test the glowplugs individually, my heater blower motor mysteriously stopped working last night as well and i had some buzzer in the car going off with the key off, i pulled the relay and it was all rusted and crap, im not a bright man but know that is bad, i am truely tired of this hack job harness and am ready to just get another uncut harness....
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are autolite plugs considered crap for this application as well?
they seem to pose a bad problem for my old 85 f250 as well, widely suggested to get the name brand motocraft. what do you know i did that with the manual switch almost a year ago, all is well :)
when i got the truck from another party, half the plugs were burnt out, and i had to extract 4 of them as they wouldn't turn out. my goodness that was 2 days of hell. they were swollen and those glowplugs have no strength when twisted, they will snap right off and leave chunks in your engine and possibly fall down into it!
i had to spend forever using pbblaster, heat and different methods to turn the glowplugs in/out until i could get past the threads. then i was able to grab onto the bodies and rig a pry bar that i could impact with a hammer one strike at a time, inline with the angle the glowplugs went in. in that way they were strong and i eventually got them all out.
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are autolite plugs considered crap for this application as well?
Uber-crap... some folks have had 'em last a matter of minutes.
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How are the Bosch glowplugs? What would you recommend?
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Big update today, i put an Ohms meter to the glowplugs to test that and found 2 were open and had no resistance what so ever, im pretty sure it wont start with 2 bad plugs....
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my engine used to start with 1 working glow plug. but not if it was colder than like 40* outside..
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I have to wait till tomorrow to pick up my new glowplugs apparently Napa is closed on sundays and none of the chain stores sell them.... Ill keep ya posted..
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Great news i got it started,it sounds like a diesel that needs fine tuned lol, it figures it was 4 bad gp's, note to self never buy anything autolite ever again.... I really appreciate all the help that everyone put in on this and it will be awsome when my brother gets back from Kuwait in 30 days and we can take the rabbit out for a spin... Till then i am proceeding with phase 2 lol....
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Great news i got it started,it sounds like a diesel that needs fine tuned lol, it figures it was 4 bad gp's, note to self never buy anything autolite ever again.... I really appreciate all the help that everyone put in on this and it will be awsome when my brother gets back from Kuwait in 30 days and we can take the rabbit out for a spin... Till then i am proceeding with phase 2 lol....
Well done.
Always remember, that you may damage a good plug when putting it in if you overtorque.
There is, or at least used to be, a small gap around the base of the glow tube that closes up and crimps onto the tube if overtorqued, and according to VAG can lead to premature death. Maybe Bosch has better resilience :-\
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I noticed on the autolite plugs that there was a slight crushable part and it would turn the lead wire that attaches to it, its a shame really cause that such a waste of money, i was reading some things the other day about the cylinder head and when i got the car started i saw little bubbles as if the head wasnt torqued properly and i turned the car off retorqed the head and it sealed up tighter than a dolphins butt, now i just need to get it tuned in good it sounds like it has a damn miss. only thing im gonna do is relocate the fuel filter, extend the return lines for the fuel and replace a front soft brake hose and ill be doing donuts in the snow soon enough lol.. oh yea and that whole pesky putting in the interior stuff, and the mk4 rear seat conversion, i really wish this car was a 2 door id just say F it and be done lol.... I do like to do interior work though its my favorite thing of the build, the plaid headliner to the all leather interior, and i even got my heated leather seats working .......
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Trouble with a 2 door in the UK, is that parking spaces are so small that you'd have to exit via the sunroof, or rear hatch....