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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Zukiman87 on November 08, 2010, 11:42:55 am
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So I ended up buying 2 1.5s thinking they were 1.6s. Ya had a brain fart! But apparently it might not be a bad thing. I've heard of the hybrid but can't find too much info. Sounds fairly simple to stuff the guts into a 1.6 block. Has anyone built a complete one?
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It's pretty straight forward.. Slap the 1.5 crank rods and pistons in the 1.6 block... However if your block has been or needs bored oversized 1.5 pistons are made of "unobtanium"... You will need to use the 1.6 head and your compression will be slightly lower than a normal 1.6.. IIRC 21:1 instead of 22:1.. Not necessarily a bad thing except for possibly harder starting...
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and if you put a 1.5 rotating assy in a turbo block, do not forget your piston notches for the squirters. 1.5 engines never had squirters, so never needed notched pistons..
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I have a 1.6 td piston that I can use to measure the notches. What kind of turbo and boost do you think I can run with the block studded and the steel headgasket?I'd like to have a turbo with not too much lag.
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i ran a VNT17 on my 1.5 engine. stock head bolts, block, and HG.. it finally cracked the block at around 40 psi..
my vnt spools up nice n low.. but i dunno if you can get away with running one in a sammi.. might hit the frame rail.
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Would it be inefficient to put a 1.5 head on the 1.6 block?
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Would it be inefficient to put a 1.5 head on the 1.6 block?
Extra high compression ratio.
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i think the compression ratio for a 1.5 on a 1.6 short block is like 25.3 to 1 verses 23.5 to 1 for a regular 1.6 l (or something like that); so like 7% higher compression.
Mine starts really easy but the mpg is still pretty low for 10,000 on the rebuild, something like 36mi/gal; read that would be a downside to the setup along with decreased durability. it seems to run a little hotter to.
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Just wondering because I have a mint 1.5 head. Didn't really want to have to try and find a mint 1.6 or 1.9 head.
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stock 1.5d is 23.5 stock 1.6d is 23
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The added .5 of compression ratio won't harm anything. Port out that Minty 1.5 head, it will perform just fine.
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Using the 1.5 internals in a 1.6 block with a 1.5 head will not change the compression as it will still be a 1.5.. However a 1.5 head with 1.6 internals will bump the compression as mentioned.. The issues will be the size difference of the front center oil return and if you're using a 12mm block the head bolt sizes...
Check this out for head swapping details: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21952.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=21952.0)
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Thanks for fixing the mistakes i had with the numbers...it looks like the compression is almost 10% higher for a 1.5 over a 1.6 than for a matched 1.6 head and short block
it will be interesting to see how quickly a k14 turbo with low boost will blow up my engine
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it will be interesting to see how quickly a k14 turbo with low boost will blow up my engine
The head gasket will be the fuse I'd guess.. Are you running with head studs?
I have 1.6 internals with a 1.5 block and head (don't ask, long story).. Managed to get about 150K miles out of it till (surprise surprise) the block cracked, then I ran it about another 50K (more story).. .. ;D The mileage indeed was indeed a tad low.. Peak was about 47mpg with darned good behavior.. Average was usually around 36-40 pending on weather and the driving habits for that week... But darn did it start good..
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Thans for the help guys. As soon as I round up a good block I'll start a build thread on it. Only other decision now is what turbo to run!
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The head gasket will be the fuse I'd guess.. Are you running with head studs? I have 1.6 internals with a 1.5 block and head (don't ask, long story)
i do wonder about the details of the 1.6 internals in a 1.5l? ;D
Yeah, the engine has headstuds so it might hold up awhile; i think i will keep boost low at 10-12 psi
Zukiman87: please do post your build progress!
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i do wonder about the details of the 1.6 internals in a 1.5l? ;D
I guess the story isn't all that interesting.. I bought an '81 Rabbit with a cracked head.. The PO had gotten a freebie engine with a trashed crank and yanked the head and had it completely refurbished.. After yanking the engine from the Rabbit and tearing it apart with intentions of replacing all the rings and bearings he found the block was cracked so he decided to use the other block he had gotten which was amazingly not cracked.. While assembling the bottom end he found that the rods were hitting at the base of the cylinder bores and at the oil pump land.. He couldn;t figure out the issue, got frustrated, and sold the whole lot (new piston rings, bearings, oil pump refurbed head, bottom end gaskets, timing belt, tensioner) for 100 bones, to me 8)..
Since everything was cleaned up and this far along (and this car was just for a daily beater WVO car) I opted to do some grinder therapy to the block and run it.. Where I went wrong was I cheaped out and used the friggen stock head bolts.. The rest of the story is here http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22403.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=22403.0)
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The head gasket will be the fuse I'd guess.. Are you running with head studs? I have 1.6 internals with a 1.5 block and head (don't ask, long story)
i do wonder about the details of the 1.6 internals in a 1.5l? ;D
Yeah, the engine has headstuds so it might hold up awhile; i think i will keep boost low at 10-12 psi
Zukiman87: please do post your build progress!
x2 here, on a similar "1.6 internals in a 1.5l" hybrid currently in project status; it's a new(!) 1.5 block, but it's clearanced for the 1.6 crank's throws and set up with piston squirters, with rotating assy re-balanced. Looking for the head studs (Yes, mandatory for 1.5 block), high volume oil pump, thermal barrier coatings, and intercooler to add longevity while staying in the 10-12psi boost range for fuel efficient travels.
J.R.
SoCal
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Next question. Can I just use the 1.6 rod crank and main bearings? They're cheap and probably easier to find.
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it will be interesting to see how quickly a k14 turbo with low boost will blow up my engine
The head gasket will be the fuse I'd guess.. Are you running with head studs?
I have 1.6 internals with a 1.5 block and head (don't ask, long story).. Managed to get about 150K miles out of it till (surprise surprise) the block cracked, then I ran it about another 50K (more story).. .. ;D The mileage indeed was indeed a tad low.. Peak was about 47mpg with darned good behavior.. Average was usually around 36-40 pending on weather and the driving habits for that week... But darn did it start good..
i cracked the block first i think.. but the head gasket still had chunks missing.. and this was on a 1.5 with OVER 35psi boost.
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The head gasket will be the fuse I'd guess.. Are you running with head studs? I have 1.6 internals with a 1.5 block and head (don't ask, long story)
i do wonder about the details of the 1.6 internals in a 1.5l? ;D
Yeah, the engine has headstuds so it might hold up awhile; i think i will keep boost low at 10-12 psi
Zukiman87: please do post your build progress!
x2 here, on a similar "1.6 internals in a 1.5l" hybrid currently in project status; it's a new(!) 1.5 block, but it's clearanced for the 1.6 crank's throws and set up with piston squirters, with rotating assy re-balanced. Looking for the head studs (Yes, mandatory for 1.5 block), high volume oil pump, thermal barrier coatings, and intercooler to add longevity while staying in the 10-12psi boost range for fuel efficient travels.
J.R.
SoCal
he wants 1.5 internals in a 1.6 block guys, not the other way around.. the 1.5 parts will require no grinding when dropped in the 1.6 block..
and if your gonna have head studs on anything, just run a load of boost. or if you aint gonna run much boost, dont waste the money on studs..
i ran up to 30 psi to a STOCK 1.5D for almost a year before i finally cracked the block BAD (7 head bolt holes had cracks)
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he wants 1.5 internals in a 1.6 block guys, not the other way around..
Your right about that...thanks for getting back to the subject.
But Maxfax does have a couple of great threads there ;D
i picked up a new set of ARP head studs for $65.00 shipped so it was 'an offer i could not refuse"
Got a 30 year old set of German Mahle 0.5mm overs than i want to use someday in a 1.6 hydro block; new 1.5 cranks are still available and cheap so the OP will have some good info; very cool
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Next question. Can I just use the 1.6 rod crank and main bearings? They're cheap and probably easier to find.
The 1.5 has smaller rod bearings IIRC, mains are the same though...
Head studs are priceless on any 11mm 1.5 or 1.6.. I can't say that enough! ;D It's a requirement on a turbo application, and might as well be on a NA..
Zuki, to get back on the original topic and to recap a bit.. You plans of right now are to use the 1.5 rotating assembly and minty 1.5 head with a later 12mm 1.6 block, correct?
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i picked up a new set of ARP head studs for $65.00 shipped so it was 'an offer i could not refuse"
THIEVERY!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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THIEVERY!!!! ;D ;D ;D
;) ;D
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Correct!!
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Cool.. Have you read though the link I posted about swapping heads around? All the poop should be there about swapping the 1.5 head on that block.. You'll need to use the 1.5 rod bearings and head gasket, as well as the little adapter doo hickey.. Everything else should be pretty straight forward..
AS far as the injection pump, you have any plans on what you'll be using there yet? There are some slight differences between the 1.5 and 1.6 pumps.. Not sure exactly what, I think most of it is timing and governor.. (maybe Burn_Your_Money can chime in here) AS far as interchanging a 1.6 pump on a 1.5 and visa versa I've never really been able to tell much difference.. You can swap the top from a TD pump onto the 1.5 pump...
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How about the prechambers?
Difference between the 1.5 and 1.6 prechamber volumes that might effect compression?
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I read the link thanks. Good stuff in there. Anyone have a pic of a ported head?
I'm trying to make up a list for what I'll need to rebuild the bottom end while it's out. Don't want to screw anything up. As far as the top end goes head studs and the metal gasket are a given.
With injector pump I'll use the old one and put a turbo top on it. It's going to get tore down and a full rebuild anyways. Probably do the governor too.
Vnt-17 turbo and as big of an exhaust I can fit.
Should be good!
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Sounds pretty much like you got all your proverbial ducks in a row...
How about the prechambers?
Difference between the 1.5 and 1.6 prechamber volumes that might effect compression?
He's still using a 1.5 head on a 1.5 rotating assembly.. Compression will remain the same..
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Anyone have a pic of a ported head?
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Cool.. Have you read though the link I posted about swapping heads around? All the poop should be there about swapping the 1.5 head on that block.. You'll need to use the 1.5 rod bearings and head gasket, as well as the little adapter doo hickey.. Everything else should be pretty straight forward..
AS far as the injection pump, you have any plans on what you'll be using there yet? There are some slight differences between the 1.5 and 1.6 pumps.. Not sure exactly what, I think most of it is timing and governor.. (maybe Burn_Your_Money can chime in here) AS far as interchanging a 1.6 pump on a 1.5 and visa versa I've never really been able to tell much difference.. You can swap the top from a TD pump onto the 1.5 pump...
the difference wasnt the pumps, it was the injectors.. early 1.5 engines had like 180? bar injectors.. thats why they have a 1.15mm timing spec.
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How about the prechambers?
Difference between the 1.5 and 1.6 prechamber volumes that might effect compression?
if he uses the 1.5 rot. assy. and 1.5 head, in a 1.6 turbo block, its just going to be a stock, tough as hell 1.5D
myself personally i would just use a 12mm turbo head.. its not going to drop the comp much, if enough to notice it..
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I read the link thanks. Good stuff in there. Anyone have a pic of a ported head?
I'm trying to make up a list for what I'll need to rebuild the bottom end while it's out. Don't want to screw anything up. As far as the top end goes head studs and the metal gasket are a given.
With injector pump I'll use the old one and put a turbo top on it. It's going to get tore down and a full rebuild anyways. Probably do the governor too.
Vnt-17 turbo and as big of an exhaust I can fit.
Should be good!
these 2 mods alone, are going to make this one hell of a fun, rev happy engine! its gonna be a blast! i know personally, ive been driving around a VNT equipped diesel for a while now (both 1.5 and 1.6 engines) and the truth be told, i like the power better out of the 1.5 alot better.. it really shines up on the top end! spools a tad bit sooner on the 1.6 tho..
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the difference wasnt the pumps, it was the injectors.. early 1.5 engines had like 180? bar injectors.. thats why they have a 1.15mm timing spec.
That's interesting, where do you get the 180 bar figure from? The early pumps had a steeper dynamic curve, but I'd not noticed any bars other than 130, but that's not to say it didn't exist though :-\
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So can anyone tell me the a specific year/model that I can find a vnt-17 on? See if I can find one from a junkyard instead of buying a brand new one.
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Vnt came on most TDI cars. The VNT 1749vb is the one I want if I go that route and came on some AHU and BEW engine code TDIs
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not 96 passat's, 97 or 98 Jetta's, or 98 golfs with TDI's. Just so you know what not to look for too lol. 99+ ALH motors are cherry
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=541
Just so you know what your looking for when you find em.
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i got mine off an 01 ALH 110hp model. (GT17 vnt) the more common turbo is the GT15 vnt, off the 90hp engine..
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the difference wasnt the pumps, it was the injectors.. early 1.5 engines had like 180? bar injectors.. thats why they have a 1.15mm timing spec.
That's interesting, where do you get the 180 bar figure from? The early pumps had a steeper dynamic curve, but I'd not noticed any bars other than 130, but that's not to say it didn't exist though :-\
I've looked at some quite early documentation but still the 180bar eludes me. Perhaps you can suggest a source, or maybe the 8 was actually a 3....
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no, i will find it. ive read somewhere that early 1.5 diesels with "yellow dot" pumps, have an unusually advanced timing spec because of the high breaking pressures. but i do not recall exact numbers at this time. i remember it being higher than the TD breaking pressure tho..
Giles Jr or Vincent would know for sure.
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R.O.R-2.0:
i got mine off an 01 ALH 110hp model. (GT17 vnt) the more common turbo is the GT15 vnt, off the 90hp engine..
And that will still be a huge step over stock. Nothing wrong with a 15
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no, i will find it. ive read somewhere that early 1.5 diesels with "yellow dot" pumps, have an unusually advanced timing spec because of the high breaking pressures. but i do not recall exact numbers at this time. i remember it being higher than the TD breaking pressure tho..
Giles Jr or Vincent would know for sure.
I remember encountering this once upon a time myself.. I had one of the yellow dot pumps.. Couldn't get it to run right till I found out the dealy.. I don;t remember the specs either though..
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no, i will find it. ive read somewhere that early 1.5 diesels with "yellow dot" pumps, have an unusually advanced timing spec because of the high breaking pressures. but i do not recall exact numbers at this time. i remember it being higher than the TD breaking pressure tho..
Giles Jr or Vincent would know for sure.
I think it was up in the 1.15mm range, the mk1 bentley has it.
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Yes stock setting of 1.15mm so it'd probably run great timed to around 1.25mm I would think
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The data that is floating around, is in the pump pressure sticky on the other site. I discovered that that particular pump had a slightly faster advance curve, or at least the internal pump pressure rises more steeply than the later pumps but that could easily be countered by a slower advance mechanism... :-\
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Other than running a vnt turbo what is the next best option?
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compounds probably?
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So it's been awhile since I started on my hybrid build. Took me awhile to ind the perfect block to put the 1.5 pistons into. Got it cleaned up and painted I'll post a pic soon. Now I'm going to start putting the pistons and bottom end into it. I'd like to put the Arp rod bolts in but from what I've read are a pain in the butt to do. Anyone done them in the 1.5 rods and does anyone have a part number for them? Or are they the same part number as the 1.6 rod bolts?
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Do the rod bolts u can just take them to a machine shop they'll press them in for a few bucks I got new arp rod bolts and bushings in mine had them polished and balanced and big ends resized it cost me 100 plus 120 for the bolts
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^^^^ What he said.. They aren't so bad to actually press in the rods, but the rods themselves need to be checked and possibly (most likely) resized... ARP # 104-6002
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So I should probably measure each rod before I put the bolts in and if neccesary machine them
Back down to that size hey
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What happens most time when you install the studs is that they sort of "stretch out the hole" since they press in there rather snugly.. This will leave you with a bump more or less right in the center of the journal on each side.. Of course this bump will push out on that one small area of the bearing, and I think you can probably imagine what bad will follow.. :o
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What brand of rings to you guys reccomend to run? Any to stay away from? Other than the 20$ sets lol
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Grant or Goetze are pretty safe bets.. The $20 specials and Top Line rings I would avoid..
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Goetze are the only ones i will run, maybe total seal if they make them now.
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So I have everything to swap the bottom end of the 1.5 into the 1.6. Grant rings kolpenschmidt bearings and arp rod bolts. Only thing I need is a pooched 1.6 piston so I can match up the notch with my 1.5 pistons. Any one have a donor they want to part with? Only need one piston! Don't want to go buy a brand new one and none of the wreckers have anything. Any help would be awesome!
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So I have everything to swap the bottom end of the 1.5 into the 1.6. Grant rings kolpenschmidt bearings and arp rod bolts. Only thing I need is a pooched 1.6 piston so I can match up the notch with my 1.5 pistons. Any one have a donor they want to part with? Only need one piston! Don't want to go buy a brand new one and none of the wreckers have anything. Any help would be awesome!
prothe sells pistons CHEAP.. may be able to buy just one for around 50 bucks..
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I have some 1.6 TD pistons. You pay shipping both ways and I would let you borrow one to use.
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I have some 1.6 TD pistons. You pay shipping both ways and I would let you borrow one to use.
what about the BEAT UP piston out of your engine that lost a pre-cup?
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I don't know if the bottom of the skirt is there anymore. I am tearing into stuff now, but as usual when I have weekend time it is raining all weekend.
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I don't have any R.O.R. I got the 1.6 as a bare block and have two 1.5 engines complete so just looking for a beater 1.6 td piston in sure there's lots out there just sitting around.
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I don't have any R.O.R. I got the 1.6 as a bare block and have two 1.5 engines complete so just looking for a beater 1.6 td piston in sure there's lots out there just sitting around.
i never said you had any.. thats why i suggested buying ONE from prothe, or seeing if Lucas had torn his blown up 1.6TD apart, because i know he has a trashed piston in there.. and the skirt SHOULD still be fine.
and no, there most definitely is NOT lots of 1.6TD pistons laying around, because the 1.6TD is a rare bird..
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I have the original 1.6 TD pistons, like I said, I have plans for them but not for a bit. If you pay shipping both ways I am down for sending you one. If the one in the car now that is almost sideways in the bore is ok I would send that to you and you could keep it.