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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Mark(The Miser)UK on October 11, 2010, 01:28:55 am
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I like to reuse my heat shields, because I can't afford new ones, each time I check my injectors. A metered crimp is all that is needed...
Over here h/s's cost £76 each [$126 EACH] :o :o :o That's twice what I paid for my QTD, or 8 fold for a full set!
http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/shop?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=459&category_id=94
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What?
Injector heat shields? I bought a MLS head gasket set, that came with all the o-rings, gaskets, 2 sets of stem seals and the injector heat shields for £30.
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Ouch...maybe they are made of an alloy of precious metals over there ;)
http://www2.maximumautoparts.com/parts/maximumautoparts/wizard.jsp?year=1981&make=VW&model=RAB-D-001&category=D&part=Injector%20Heat%20Shield&returnurl=null&dp=false
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Ouch...maybe they are made of an alloy of precious metals over there ;)
http://www2.maximumautoparts.com/parts/maximumautoparts/wizard.jsp?year=1981&make=VW&model=RAB-D-001&category=D&part=Injector%20Heat%20Shield&returnurl=null&dp=false
This is why Baxter changed his name because of his smuggler's specials...
Maybe they are made from Krugerands ;D
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Changed his name? At that price he should be wearing a mask. they're pence.
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I like to reuse my heat shields, because I can't afford new ones, each time I check my injectors.
Let us know how long your engine run until the injector tips are fried.
Sorry but they're actually selling anal penetration without lube on that deal. Those shields cost about $1.25/ea.
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Never never NEVER reuse heat shields!!
Risk toasting a $80.00 injector over a $1.25 part? Really?
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Here ya go: http://catalog.importrp.com/item.wws?mfr=ELRING&sku=MBZ020779&source=GOOGLEBASE
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WOW !
And I thought I was getting screwed when I see shipping in the 15-30.00 dollar range ... for 4 shields at total of less than 5.00, and could easily be mailed in common bubble envelope; rather than UPS or FedX.
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http://www.dieselkontor.de/product_info.php?cPath=22_36&products_id=266
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Before everyone throws stones has anyone in the UK checked directly with (EDIT) Baxter?? Looks like a good candidate for a typo... at least to me?
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The link he posted Vince shows an extremely high cost so I dont think it's a typo on his part..
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Yeah, typed in "Mark" since I vaguely remember that as being Baxter's last name... but in fact its "Simon". :-\
So... to clarify... I was thinking "typo" as when he (Baxter) entered the pricing on the web store.... :)
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Figures.. ;D
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Yeah, typed in "Mark" since I vaguely remember that as being Baxter's last name... but in fact its "Simon". :-\
So... to clarify... I was thinking "typo" as when he (Baxter) entered the pricing on the web store.... :)
Definitely ;D
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ding ding ding ding ding....do i getz a cookie ;D
4.09 usd shipped to your door
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Diesel-Injector-Heat-Shield-Washer-Rabbit-Jetta-Golf-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cf2317e20QQitemZ330480844320QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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Those have to be the scariest looking heat shields I have ever seen. What the hell were they pressed from, recycled zippers?
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Recycled "Quotations from Chairman Mao"
To be honest, unless I really think ahead, I just reform and reuse them. The metal is malleable, and as long I get the original shape such that compression of the injector gets the nozzle hole covered, I don't see the harm.
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ding ding ding ding ding....do i getz a cookie ;D
4.09 usd shipped to your door
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Diesel-Injector-Heat-Shield-Washer-Rabbit-Jetta-Golf-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cf2317e20QQitemZ330480844320QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Is it really a good idea to recommend Prothe parts? ::)
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$125is way too expensive. I've got a set you can have for $50 shipped :)
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Here ya go: http://catalog.importrp.com/item.wws?mfr=ELRING&sku=MBZ020779&source=GOOGLEBASE
Are those cheap china made replacement parts? There alful cheap. but not at cheap at prothe ::)
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I can go to my friend at the shop and get a price on OEM for you MTM. If need be we can make a swap, I want some UK parts, you can definitely get cheaper then I can.
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Is it really a good idea to recommend Prothe parts? ::)
injection pumps.....no
turbos......no
door handles....maybe
dollar heat shields.....yup
lots of his parts have questionable backgrounds, which I will never buy certain things. But a heat shield is a heat shield. ;D
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Anyone tried those Prothe heatshields? A dollar heatshield will cost you more than a dollar if it doesn't seal against the injector...
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There's no debate in my mind.
88 cents per Meyle heat-shield locally...
Seems the OPs website has been updated to 0.76 pounds. That's more like it.
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Anyone tried those Prothe heatshields? A dollar heatshield will cost you more than a dollar if it doesn't seal against the injector...
I've run them in my engine for a while with no ill effects. They seemed to seal fine. I don't have them in currently as I changed injectors, but there was no sign of heat shield leakage when I pulled the injectors.
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I like to reuse my heat shields, because I can't afford new ones, each time I check my injectors.
Let us know how long your engine run until the injector tips are fried.
Sorry but they're actually selling anal penetration without lube on that deal. Those shields cost about $1.25/ea.
i've reset a couple heat shields with no issues, and i know a guy that always resets them, and he works on a lot of diesels for himself and other people, either way for what they cost i always replace them now
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Nice to see Simon updated his site. Had I not needed to become a member to post, I would have whispered in his shell like ;D.
I find it funny how some of you didn't catch on that is was clearly a mistake, as that was the price each.
However, this thread was spoiled by those purveyors of doom, whose whole life seems dedicated to spending money unneccessarily. I know shields are only a few $ each, but from recommendations I see elsewhere, any opportunity to throw money away is taken with zeal.
As for frying my injectors due to reuse of shields, I find in my experience that to be utter nonsense. ::)
Any shield that is 'leaking' fluids will soon dislay the fact by continual bubbling and sweating around the base of the injector. Occasional inspection will soon discover this, and if neglected... Well, you only have yourself to blame if you carbon up the threads. If you r &r injectors, any temporary leaks should dissappear after a few days, if they don't, then r & r them again. ::)
I suspect that many stuck injectors have virgin shields beneath them.
I have just adjusted my injectors. They came out easily. Here is a pic of the dryness.
(http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1108/oldshimsnoleaks.th.jpg) (http://img840.imageshack.us/i/oldshimsnoleaks.jpg/)
These injectors had been in for about 20000 miles and the shields have been in for about 30000, and date back to the previous Quantum the engine was in.
They have been reformed:
1) 10000 miles into my ownership of the prev car, as I had a headgasket blow, and I skimmed the head by hand.
2) I had a spare set of injectors from a scrapped Quantum and swapped them in to see if they were any better.
3)I got my first pop tester, and wanted to check it's operation. So I pop tested my 'then' collection of 8 injectors and put in the 4 nearest to 155bar.
4) Physics and H Ricardo convinced me that 130 bar injectors should give better economy than the TD rated ones, so I installed these current Bosch ones from some kind of Ford. They have made in France on them and the nozzles are SN0 315's also French.
5) As part of my recent dramatic re-ring of this indestructible mech headed engine, I have now aligned the pressures from 125, 125, 125 and 130 so that they are all 145bar, as near as I can get them with my homemade spring steel shims.
So that is at least 5 documented reuses, (There may have been a couple of others when I tried to find the knocking noise, that plagued this engine)
The August rebuild revealed the over zealous skim had allowed the exhaust valves in #1 and #4 to harmlessly dig a nest into the piston crowns ;D
I have a few rules when reusing the shields:
I use the best IMO technique to reform them. Some hit them and some use a drill press, but I use locking grips, that I can select the amount of reforming, and make it repeatable and precise:
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3639/meteredreshapeofshim.th.jpg) (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/meteredreshapeofshim.jpg/)
About 15 thou clearance on nozzle is sufficient:
Please excuse my dirty thumbnail, I don't bite them [I use it as a gouge/screwdriver though]
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7173/resetshim.th.jpg) (http://img156.imageshack.us/i/resetshim.jpg/)
I usually set my injectors back in the head with about 30 lb ft. I find that is sufficient if the shield is working correctly. More is damaging IMO to the aluminium ledge in the head...
I keep the shield in the same hole. Prothe's gold shields show the ridges in the under part of the shield . These are often uniquely placed and actually dig a furrow into the head. Many diferent shields will dig different trenches and wear away the flesh [IMO]
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Finally for all those clever sceptics out there, here is a little puzzle. Below is a picture of 8 shields. 4 are my ones from above and 4 are presumably single use. The crud on some is where I dropped them into the dirt. They are in no particular order, other than darker ones at the bottom.
So which are the ones that should be frying my injectors?
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6643/eightoldshims.th.jpg) (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/eightoldshims.jpg/)
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I find it funny how some of you didn't catch on that is was clearly a mistake, as that was the price each.
Dare you suggest that something on the intrtowebs is incorrect? He surely must have just recently found a cheaper supplier because nothing on the internet is ever wrong...
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Mark-
Thanks for sharing your technique. That looks far better than what I have been doing- giving them a whack with a hammer on a round-headed screw clamped in a vise. I have 11 cars so I have better things to waste money on than injector seals ( like tires, batteries, insurance).
Rick
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Mark-
Thanks for sharing your technique. That looks far better than what I have been doing- giving them a whack with a hammer on a round-headed screw clamped in a vise. I have 11 cars so I have better things to waste money on than injector seals ( like tires, batteries, insurance).
Rick
My pleasure.
I think they have become cheaper in recent times.
When I first asked for them from VW, they quoted me £10 for 4.
I dare say those turning ridges on the back, do help in the sealing of the shield to the head, but I hope people can see my argument for matching the shield to its hole, especially if you anticipate r & r ing the injectors often in the name of scientific research ;D.
PLlease norte , the ball bearing guides the bending torque onto the inner edge, which is the only part that needs to be distorted.
Otherwise, a new set left in for 100,000miles is, naturally, fine.
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;D
We just updated the webshop, we keep finding things like that!
Was it you that e-mailled?
I'm just glad they are more expensive than cheaper!
When the webshop came back on after the update all the shipping was a mess and it wasn't adding tax to the shipping cost, and some people were getting free shipping!
Been a bit of a mare for us to be honest but I think most of the wrinkles have been ironed out now!
I saw it as a bit light hearted, this thread, funny how even though we all speak "English" something is lost in the Atlantic!
:)
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Honestly I still have no idea why anyone would want to reuse a $1.05 item that protects a $80.00 part.
There is no way you are pressing them down perfectly square so the contact patch on the tip is as required sorry but bot gonna happen with a pair of vise grips.
But what ever.
I now and always will not condone reusing heat shields, get new!!!
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Yeah I have always used new, but I like the idea.
I don't believe they would have to be perfect since they deform to the injector. As long as it was close and had enough room to flatten and seal I think it would be fine. I don't do enough tinkering with the injectors to warrant trying it, but if I was doing grease or used motor oil I would check into it. Then I would want to know how the spray is a lot more than now.
That being said I bet if you made a jig on a mill or lathe you could run it on a drill press or vice and get the perfect results you were looking for repeatably everytime.
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Ya know thats true.
If ya used a ball bearing tack welded to a shaft of sorts then in a press or drill press as you said then maybe it would work..
I just hate the idea of anyone toasting an injector over such a low cost replace only part.
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I find it funny how some of you didn't catch on that is was clearly a mistake, as that was the price each.
However, this thread was spoiled by those purveyors of doom, whose whole life seems dedicated to spending money unneccessarily. I know shields are only a few $ each, but from recommendations I see elsewhere, any opportunity to throw money away is taken with zeal.
[mod hat off]
And I personally find a thread disingenuously started to throw a fellow member's pricing under the bus but with the actual purpose of continuing to proselytize a favorite technique for reusing a 99 cent part.... while laughing at people who misunderstood the actual intent... somewhat disrespectful of the other members.... in my opinion. ;) This thread is not "spoiled" when people weigh in with alternative suggestions and perspectives... it's enhanced.
[mod hat back on]
My suggestion, Mark: document your technique for reusing heat shields in a single HOW-TO post in the FAQ section... I'll link it from the main faq header...and then we'll call this on-going topic of debate done?
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I'm having too much fun Vince :)
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Yeah... I know... these are just diesels and we can always stand to lighten up... but in all seriousness I do think repeating themes optimally can get documented in the FAQs and then we move on to exploring new topics. New topics on several-decade-old engine designs... cool!! ;)
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I guess I should have added more smilies as I was playing 90% of the time.
Ya ready to go somewhere else now ;)
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Don't you think that point contact on a ball bearing gives pretty close to a perpendicular push?
Have you looked at the crunching of mild steel into the head's seat?
I initially started this policy, because of my bad planning, and VW never being open when it suited me!
However, I feel I have justified [at least to myself] that they can be reused.
Are there any anecdotes to call upon where some of the injectors that have given grief, are on ancient but first use heat shields?
Is it more common for them to seize from dried raw diesel,[from within or from without] or carbon deposits from within only?
For my next shocking truth I may copy and paste my mini research into the non-neccessity of the Polo-Mint injector shims. Extra strong mint shapes work just as well. The hole was only for hooking them out... [This will probably upset the Experts on the Merc forum too ;)
Simon says:
"I saw it as a bit light hearted, this thread, funny how even though we all speak "English" something is lost in the Atlantic!"
Do you mean humour or the Titanic ;D
Mark
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I find it funny how some of you didn't catch on that is was clearly a mistake, as that was the price each.
However, this thread was spoiled by those purveyors of doom, whose whole life seems dedicated to spending money unneccessarily. I know shields are only a few $ each, but from recommendations I see elsewhere, any opportunity to throw money away is taken with zeal.
And I personally find a thread disingenuously started to throw a fellow member's pricing under the bus but with the actual purpose of continuing to proselytize a favorite technique for reusing a 99 cent part.... while laughing at people who misunderstood the actual intent... somewhat disrespectful of the other members.... in my opinion. ;) This thread is not "spoiled" when people weigh in with alternative suggestions and perspectives... it's enhanced.
My suggestion, Mark: document your technique for reusing heat shields in a single HOW-TO post in the FAQ section... I'll link it from the main faq header...and then we'll call this on-going topic of debate done?
Well, maybe someone can write it in West Atlantic style.
Re the fun with Simon, he clearly saw it as a joke, otherwise he was selling a set of GTD nozzle for the same price as one shield... Now if someone purchased a set at that price, them I'm sure he will be throwing a party for the local V Dub clubs "Sponsored by Heatshield"
Now my dig at a few others was not meant to kill anyone, but to point out these engines tolerate ingenuity and reuse of products, and often as not do not need oodles of money spent, like advocates of a new engine just because of a little white smoke :o
Being told through a one-liner that I will fry my injectors, or engine without emoticons could be serious or could be a joke, or could simply be wrong, sometimes, or indeed once, if we only include me.
I of course not only had a theory, but in this instance it has been put into practice as recently as yesterday and for as long as 4 years, and I also provided my actual history for my current car.
I don't think it needs to be in the FAQ yet, until more people think I may be on to something, including the possibility that heatshield renewal could if practiced on numerous occasions damage the seating, leading to leakage issues that wee are trying to avoid in the first place...
Mark
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Just as an aside, we recently had a van in for a Diesel leak.
Fuel was leaking from the 2 halves of the injector.
We removed the pipes, took the injector out and it was tight, so we presumed cracked but when we looked at the tip it was a mess and very sooty, we then inspected the injector bore and found the washers in upside down!
Stuck fast they were, horrible job to remove them, sounds gash but we had to hammer a screw driver into them to get them out.
Cracked over without injectors in to blow all the debris out.
I didn't check but I presume the heat has damaged or distorted the injector body to the point of leaking fuel.
To me the flame traps are a single use disposable item, plus they cost so little the cost of labour in messing with them far outways the cost of replacement.
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Mark, e-mail me your address, I'll bung you some freebies in the post for telling us about the fault with the webshop.
[email protected]
Simon.
:-*