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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Smokey Eddy on October 05, 2010, 11:49:07 pm
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So i decided to quickly change my speedometer cable (mine was stretched badly) and it was a relatively quick job until i went to turn the car over to go catch a movie (i also changed all the lifters but im pretty sure that's irrelevant). So the solenoid clicked and it turned for a split second but nothing happened... after many minutes of checking gears and what not i decided to poke around the tranny. I pulled the speedo cable out only to find that the orange gear thing had fallen off when i was putting the new one in and was lost somewhere in there. I saw the tip of it (geared tip) and tried to fish it out with a screw driver only causing it to disappear. I started to panic and tried jamming my fingers in the speedo hole to try and get it out but can't feel it anywhere! only some gear teeth that turned the gear oil from brown to brown with streaks of blood red. Can't imagine where that came from? my fingers sure hurt though.
anyone have this happen?
advice?
I WAS supposed to be going on a lengthy road trip this weekend for thanksgiving... =(
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I know nothing.
Just so that is clear ;D This is the page where my trans was rebuilt and has many pics. Maybe if you look at them you will see where it could be and possibly get it out.
Worst case I think there is only a small piece of metal that clips onto the cable*you probably didn't have it on as I don't see how you could lose one with it on* It may grind up just fine, the plastic won't hurt anything. But I would change the oil after you feel it crush or 500 miles or less.
http://www.brokevw.com/lucasags.html
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Does Broke document everyone's rebuild? That's really cool beans. I have rebuilt a couple of Triumph overdrive trannies , a Ford C-4 and Mercedes 722.315 slushboxes , but the 020 scares the crap out of me. I hope I have a lifetime supply stashed away already.
Eddy, you might want to send an email to Broke as to how to fish that gear out. My guess is that if it doesn't come out with a simple drain, it won't likely hurt anything (well it might hurt, but not kill it). That's just a guess....
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Yep, Brain Mr. Brokevw does indeed document everything in the rebuild for everyone. That way you both know what was discussed and done. He told me it was so he wouldn't forget, but I think it was the nice way of him putting the blame on himself when it is guys like me who forget ;). Maybe he does actually forget, but I seriously doubt it...he is good. I can't say I ever had anyone do a more thorough job on anything I have ever let out for work.
Ed, I would think if you spent enough time you will be able to get it out. There isn't too much room and the drain plug is big so I would think you could roll the tires around until it put the gear on the bottom and fish it out. Good luck and study the split case pics and I bet you will figure something out.
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I think the gear is wider that the space between the ring gear and the drain hole, though... :o
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Well it doesn't turn over...
I don't recall there ever being a metal clip to be honest. the gear just slid off and on... really frustrated me and probably should have given me reason to be concerned...
I really dug around there with my finger and i can't seem to feel it anywhere! :(
I have some transmission parts i was meaning to replace at some point but it started to loom as a way bigger job than i had anticipated and i needed the car back (the rebuild was taking too long).
I'll have a look at some pictures but I still don't see how i will get it out even once i know where it is... I would have figured there wasn't enough space to move around.
how big of a job would it be to pull the trans out and take it apart (just the two sections)?
I'll email broke vw too. thanks guys.
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if my dad and grandpa can take and separate a VW 020 trans, then i think anyone should be able to.. and they are chevy people!
i told them both that they were crazy trying to separate an 020, but they had that thing separated and back together in like, an hour..
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I have had this happen. After a couple hours of fishing, I was finally able to get it out. I would not recommend leaving it in. It can get caught out in the shift forks and jam them. I used a long piece of residential ground wire with a hook shape on the end. I used this to get the gear into view. When I could see it, I used a three finger grabber tool to carefully pull it through the hole. I dropped it many times.
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if my dad and grandpa can take and separate a VW 020 trans, then i think anyone should be able to.. and they are chevy people!
i told them both that they were crazy trying to separate an 020, but they had that thing separated and back together in like, an hour..
holy jeeze. Can you tell me how they did it? did they use a crane? how heavy is the trans? could me and a friend lift it out (im thinking no)
I have had this happen. After a couple hours of fishing, I was finally able to get it out. I would not recommend leaving it in. It can get caught out in the shift forks and jam them. I used a long piece of residential ground wire with a hook shape on the end. I used this to get the gear into view. When I could see it, I used a three finger grabber tool to carefully pull it through the hole. I dropped it many times.
oh my word this is good news to me. Where did you have to pull it from? did it slide towards the bell housing? I have no idea where mine went. Did you fish through the speedo hole?
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Me and a friend put the 1.6 and trans into my jetta with a chain and fence post. You should easily be able to lift your trans. It is lighter than the engine for sure.
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The complete tall block was incredibly heavy. Like upwards of 200 pounds with everything on it. (pumps, brackets, alt ect.)
Im guessing it would be quite a bit of work to pull the whole thing though no? once i had it out i might be able to manouver it until the orange gear comes out? i'll try fishing with a hook some more though. and draining the gear oil. i've been meaning to.
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Yes, I was able to fish it out through the speedo hole. Use the wire hook to sweep for it. Tends to hide towards the front of the trans (ie. front of the car side).
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I personally don't think the VW complete engine is heavy. Although I am fairly young *32* and stupid. When younger and even more dumb I carried a Ford 400 with a friend out of a barn and also lifted a SB chevy 350 onto an engine stand...those were freaking heavy.
Either way. I think you will have success with your gear. Follow Rally's instruction and drain that oil first and all should be well. Good luck.
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Thanks =)
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Ed, i do all my clutch jobs by myself.. that includes wrestling with the 020, both out of and back into the car..
the easiest way is to set the trans under the car, directly under where it goes, then reach thru the car, and pick the trans off the ground and set it on the engine.. i can pack an 020 trans away with one hand. weighs like 70 lbs.
my dad and grandpa didnt need any very special tools, just something to take that huge plug out of the front of the shift fork assembly.. other than that it wasnt bad. oh yea.. 5th gear is really tight..
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I spoke to Brian from Broke VW.com and he said that if i rotate the trans backwards in a high gear like 5th by spinning the tire off the ground it should turn up the gear oil enough to bring the speedo gear back to the vicinity of the speedo hole.
The issue is i can't hold the clutch down, turn the wheel, and look in the hole for the gear all at once by my self :(
Brian never mentioned that i should just take it apart though which surprised me.
So, R.O.R.-2.0, to remove the tranny you jack the car up, drop the trans down and slide it out the front of the car from underneath?
How much work is it to disconnect everything?
I took tomorrow off work so i can deal with this Shaz
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I spoke to Brian from Broke VW.com and he said that if i rotate the trans backwards in a high gear like 5th by spinning the tire off the ground it should turn up the gear oil enough to bring the speedo gear back to the vicinity of the speedo hole.
The issue is i can't hold the clutch down, turn the wheel, and look in the hole for the gear all at once by my self :(
Brian never mentioned that i should just take it apart though which surprised me.
So, R.O.R.-2.0, to remove the tranny you jack the car up, drop the trans down and slide it out the front of the car from underneath?
How much work is it to disconnect everything?
I took tomorrow off work so i can deal with this Shaz
Being that you've already been in and out of that engine bay a few times, you should be able to have the tranny on the ground in 1/2 hour. Support, Halfshafts, shift linkage, speedo cable (oops, already done), starter (be wary of the mount), tranny mount, tilt, 4-6 bolts, tranny on ground.
Ian
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And take the few minutes to remove your front clip and the tires.
Ian
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I find it much easier to get the trans out if I take out the front mount and both the trans mount brackets. Support the oil pan with a jack and you can tilt the engine down and slid the trans out without too much swearing. You will need to rotate the trans to move the diff housing up and over the trans mount.
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From Brian @ brokevw.com
Ed --
It'll want to drop down and towards the flywheel a small bit, as it settles to the bottom of the box.
The shafts spinning may or may not bring the gear up... to be honest, it is a long shot that it will work, but it might be worth trying.
No chance on getting the gear to either the drain or filler holes. The drain hole is in front of the ring gear, and there is no space for the speedo gear to get there. The filler hole is in the 5th housing, and the 5th gears are in a separate compartment from the rest of the trans, so it'll never go to one of those holes, the only option is back out of the speedo hole it dropped into.
... You can keep fishing, if it doesn't work, drain the oil and try again.... but you wouldn't be the first person who couldn't get it out. I've had them sent here for just a speed gear issue.
I managed to get them on the bench, drained, and then with a 2 lb. nylon deadblow hammer I smacked the case as I rolled the trans around until I heard it dislodge, then I worked it back to the speedo hole by standing the trans on the case so the hole was at the bottom, and when I could finally see it I grabbed it with a claw.
Hopefully you get it removed without pulling the trans, but if you do, you may be able to get it without opening the trans up.
Brian
Guess I'll be removing it tomorrow then and trying to shake it out.
My drain plug is also stuck closed which will make the whole process extra messy.
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Put some heat to the drain plug...it should turn then.
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Yes, I was able to fish it out through the speedo hole. Use the wire hook to sweep for it. Tends to hide towards the front of the trans (ie. front of the car side).
Holy balls you must be some kind of god. I tried for the better part of an hour never to feel anything move even slightly.
I hopped into the car and went through all the gears. When i push the shifter down to go into reverse i hear something hitting something that wasn't there before! Voila! Only, i don't know where that "something" is ... in the transmission...
augh never mind. It's the linkage hitting my exhaust... I don't have to push the shifter down to shift into reverse so i never noticed that before.
sigh. I think i'm just going to drive the car and say F-it.
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It sucked. I think it took a couple hours and I was quite drunk by the end of it as a way of staying calm! My hamstrings were sore too from bending over the engine. It really is a crapshoot. I made a poster after I finally got it depicting the hunting of the gear as my version of Captain Ahab's Moby Dick. I think I was still drunk. ::)
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Oh nice. Brain from broke VW described where it would be resting.
(http://brokevw.com/pic%20533s.jpg)
In this pic, when the gear settles from gravity, it will be sitting on the bottom of the case, on one side or the other of that small reverse idler gear there...
That being the smallest lowermost gear in the picture.
Rally, how did you bring it all the way back up? I'm having a terrible time even getting my length of wire to go past that first shaft.
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I spoke to Brian from Broke VW.com and he said that if i rotate the trans backwards in a high gear like 5th by spinning the tire off the ground it should turn up the gear oil enough to bring the speedo gear back to the vicinity of the speedo hole.
The issue is i can't hold the clutch down, turn the wheel, and look in the hole for the gear all at once by my self :(
Brian never mentioned that i should just take it apart though which surprised me.
So, R.O.R.-2.0, to remove the tranny you jack the car up, drop the trans down and slide it out the front of the car from underneath?
How much work is it to disconnect everything?
I took tomorrow off work so i can deal with this Shaz
Being that you've already been in and out of that engine bay a few times, you should be able to have the tranny on the ground in 1/2 hour. Support, Halfshafts, shift linkage, speedo cable (oops, already done), starter (be wary of the mount), tranny mount, tilt, 4-6 bolts, tranny on ground.
Ian
half hour? in what universe?
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Yeah i looked at everything i'd have to disconnect... the CV's would be over 15 minutes just them selves...
never mind the fact that i have no clue how all the shift linkage comes apart :(
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If it is stock linkage it should just pop off. Take a picture of how it looks just in case you forget.
I went to the missing linkz shift stuff and it is VERY confusing. The stock stuff seemed ok in that there is only one way to go on. No adjustment really.
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I would like to meet the guy who can pull a MKII tranny in half an hour... It took me 2 weekends to change my clutch. That subframe is a bxxxx.
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I would like to meet the guy who can pull a MKII tranny in half an hour... It took me 2 weekends to change my clutch. That subframe is a bxxxx.
took me ~6.5 to 7 hours to do a clutch on my mk2 GTI. and i did a dual downpipe upgrade, too. i left the engine in the car this time. the subframe isnt even a problem when you pull the trans mount and front engine mount. my trans came right out of there.
anyone who can get the trans out of a running driving mk2 VW is about a quarter inch away from an overdose.. they need to slow down, eat a sandwich, and take a nap. no sober human being can pull a trans in a half hour.
i cant even get close to that, and i am what i consider to be a decent mechanic..
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2 hours comfortably to drop the tranny and another hour to split it and put it back together.Then 3 hours to hang it up again. I had the extra hour to put it back in as it just wasn't being co operative.
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I totally forgot about this, Ed...
You shouldn't have to pull a subframe to get the tranny out. Rotate it until the diff is point close to up and it should slide out and drop down... breaking 2 or 3 ribs as it dropped down in my case.
I've never pulled one apart, but yeah, about 2 hours to get it out. It'll be a full day job, but you should have the car ready to go again by the end of the day. I'd help you out, but I've got a lot to do tomorrow and my next day off I'm hoping to pull my engine.
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My uncle used to work at a vw dealer back in the mk1 era and he said him and the other guys would time clutch changes to see who was fastest. He said the record was 1 hour start to finish.
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I totally forgot about this, Ed...
You shouldn't have to pull a subframe to get the tranny out. Rotate it until the diff is point close to up and it should slide out and drop down... breaking 2 or 3 ribs as it dropped down in my case.
I've never pulled one apart, but yeah, about 2 hours to get it out. It'll be a full day job, but you should have the car ready to go again by the end of the day. I'd help you out, but I've got a lot to do tomorrow and my next day off I'm hoping to pull my engine.
dude, mk2 tranny is cake as long as you get that stupid little cover off down by the drive flange. just had a mk2 trans out less than a week ago. it was cake. just take the front engine mount off and you can pull the engine towards the radiator enough to get the trans out just fine. i thought it was going to be alot harder, but it was just fine.
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I totally forgot about this, Ed...
You shouldn't have to pull a subframe to get the tranny out. Rotate it until the diff is point close to up and it should slide out and drop down... breaking 2 or 3 ribs as it dropped down in my case.
I've never pulled one apart, but yeah, about 2 hours to get it out. It'll be a full day job, but you should have the car ready to go again by the end of the day. I'd help you out, but I've got a lot to do tomorrow and my next day off I'm hoping to pull my engine.
thats okay matt. No hurry. I'm going to drive it as is. At some point it would be a good experience to change some of the stuff i bought for it AND get that gear out. I know where it is in the case its just impossible to get out. It wouldn't be so hard if all the internals were aluminum or non ferrous and the gear WAS :P
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This universe. Keep in mind he's already had everything apart lately, so there should be any issues with seized bolts and such. 1/2 hour probably a bit of a stretch, but I've done MK3 engine/tranny pulls from complete car to sitting in my driveway, middle of winter, no air tools in less than 90 mins.
Speaking of which, when people refer to "subframes" on the MK2, are they referring to the cross-member that connect the L & R sides across the front which provides support for the front engine mount?
Ian
I spoke to Brian from Broke VW.com and he said that if i rotate the trans backwards in a high gear like 5th by spinning the tire off the ground it should turn up the gear oil enough to bring the speedo gear back to the vicinity of the speedo hole.
The issue is i can't hold the clutch down, turn the wheel, and look in the hole for the gear all at once by my self :(
Brian never mentioned that i should just take it apart though which surprised me.
So, R.O.R.-2.0, to remove the tranny you jack the car up, drop the trans down and slide it out the front of the car from underneath?
How much work is it to disconnect everything?
I took tomorrow off work so i can deal with this Shaz
Being that you've already been in and out of that engine bay a few times, you should be able to have the tranny on the ground in 1/2 hour. Support, Halfshafts, shift linkage, speedo cable (oops, already done), starter (be wary of the mount), tranny mount, tilt, 4-6 bolts, tranny on ground.
Ian
half hour? in what universe?
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yea, i took 2-3 hours to take my trans out, and about as long to go back in. but i had ample smoke breaks, pee breaks, and food breaks.. im kinda a slacker tho, i never sit down and just bust it out. and its only the second time ive really had a mk2 that far apart. took me 7-8 hours to do the clutch the first time, but it always seems that i get more work to do, than just change the clutch, whenever im about to do it..