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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: doonboggle on August 25, 2010, 11:55:20 am
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OK, at ... http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=26684.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=26684.0) ... I laid out my hesitance to tackle my brake problem on my 81 diesel pickup. As a result of guidance and responses, I now have much of the parts en-route in the next day or 2. Today I decided to start taking stuff off to be ready.
I began with the master cylinder, and with it now off, see some issues that I need to get comments on please.
First, I cannot identify which brand the master cylinder is; Bendix, etc., ?? Is that an issue, or will any new (if I decide to replace it) one be OK?
Second, with it off I now see rust where it connects to the servo ... and also rust inside the servo on the pushrod. I had hoped to not to have to replace these items ... almost 200.00 already in the 'hole' with this month's retirement income.
Images are down below this.
Based on the rust, is it imperative that I replace the m/c and servo? The servo will be a problem due to the difficulty of getting to the nuts holding it.
Thanks
M/C left side.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/Rabbit%20brakes/mastercylinder1.jpg)
M/C bottom
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/Rabbit%20brakes/mastercylinder2.jpg)
M/C right side
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/Rabbit%20brakes/mastercylinder3.jpg)
M/C to servo 1 & 2
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/Rabbit%20brakes/mastercylinder4.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/Rabbit%20brakes/mastercylinder5.jpg)
Servo to M/C
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/Rabbit%20brakes/mastercylinder6.jpg)
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No real problems there. Just not pretty looking is all.
Could do some minor cleaning and greasing to keep it in check and better preserved.
Usually when the MC starts going bad - the rear end is where they start leaking from. Being dry is a good sign.
Don't use any sealant where the MC mounts to Pwr Booster as a preventive measure - if it starts leaking fluid eventually - you'll want it to be able to escape and get your attention.
Kelsey-Hayes MC @ Rock = $23
Having the right ports in the same locations is the main key.
Dammd nice luck the brake line fittings came out so nice.
Mine are waiting to torture and induce bloodshed.
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Just one cautionary note... and I'll admit to not having had a Pickup for a while, but it's my understanding that the truck brake boosters are NLA and are getting darned hard to find.
If so, it may just mean that you need to treat the one you have like it's made of glass unobtainium as you disassemble things further and/or live with the rust you've got.
Or perhaps there's a good supplier out there someone knows about?
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Doondoggle, I would say that you have nothing to fear using these parts. And if a Midwestern had these "rusty" parts they would be jumping for joy. They would class them as "new".
Rusty? What rust?
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So Or, Vince and Baron ... this is a surprise to me. Had envisioned that I would need to replace the items ... especially where the rubber plugs are inside and cruddy looking ... focusing on the booster for one.
And of course the 'C' clip ... or whatever it is called in the M/C ... being as bad looking also.
So next move ... try to clean up as best as possible and re-assemble???????
And move on to other things ......CORRECT ? ?
The M/C is a Bendix, based on the rubber plugs where the reservoir goes ... and they have dried evidence and aging signs ... but cannot seem to find them ... and 'yes' Vince, the booster is a hummer cost from what I've located so far.
But .... why the rust?
Should not there be a seal where the 2 parts are joined to keep water out.
OH! ! And what would one do to clean out the reservoir good? I used a bit of gas and shook it 2-3 times ... but the caked sediment (?) is still there; and there's no way to take it apart to get in all the corners, etc..
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The difference between the master cylinders IIRC is the number of outlets.. THe 4 outlet seems to be the most common.. I *think* there other only has 3.. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong..
Doon, the seal between the booster and master is that little rubber round disc that the rod comes though.. Otherwise air and moisture can get in there where yours is "rusty" (that is really pretty clean in comparison to what I see here in the North East).. Pretty typical on any vehicle.. The idea of that area not being sealed tightly is so that if the master cylinder leaks you can see the fluid running out between the booster and master cyl.. And the fluid draining out between there is much better than it making its way into the booster..
Clean and reassemble and you should be good.. I too have never found the little grommets for the reservoir, except with a new master cylinder.. Fortunately all the sealing takes place down inside, and there is next to no pressure on them.. I've had some pretty crappy looking ones seal up just fine...
The power brake boosters are still available, they just take some time to get.. Carquest part number 53-5600, they list for like $197.. I suspect they get them through World Pac.. Pretty sure they can be gotten cheaper ;) ..
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The difference between the master cylinders IIRC is the number of outlets.. THe 4 outlet seems to be the most common.. I *think* there other only has 3.. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong..
If you're referring to the one I have, it is the 4 line connection type ... with the adjustment 'thingie' underneath with the fluid passing through.
TIA
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From my experience with brake parts/seals:,..
they don't like petroleum products.
Did you put gas in the resevoir with it still attached to the master cylinder?
That might have ruined it.
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"Most" use the 4 port set-up.
But there are different locations for the ports - as you can see where there are blank spots on the sides of yours.
Some have all 4 on the sides.
Some have the ports where yours has blanks, and blanks where yours has ports, and still use the 2 bottom ports.
And some are just like yours.
And some have smaller bores, and some have larger bores.
I've cleaned a few of the reservoirs out that were nasty, and had good results. Use Brake Fluid as your solvent.
Use long oversize pipe cleaners doubled up (don't remember where i got them) as "swabs". Takes a little bit of time - but have gotten them back into really nice condition even in the rearward corners.
Considering they are right around $100 new, and nobody has them aftermarket - its worth an hour or so to get it cleaned up nice on the inside.
Either put the MC in a Vise or back on the Truck before attempting to remove the reservoir. Unless you're not going to remove the reservoir at all.
Brush off what rust you can, apply some grease over it all - put it back together - fuhhhget aboutet.
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"Most" use the 4 port set-up.
I was looking at pictures at venders.. Seems as though there is a 4 port and a 6 port.. Yet it looked like the 6 port had plugs in 2 ports.. ???
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NO !
From my experience with brake parts/seals:,..
they don't like petroleum products.
Did you put gas in the resevoir with it still attached to the master cylinder?
That might have ruined it.
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I've cleaned a few of the reservoirs out that were nasty, and had good results. Use Brake Fluid as your solvent. Use long oversize pipe cleaners doubled up (don't remember where i got them) as "swabs". Takes a little bit of time - but have gotten them back into really nice condition even in the rearward corners.
O-BOY --- finding long pipe cleaners in this hicks-ville village is another story....
Either put the MC in a Vise or back on the Truck before attempting to remove the reservoir. Unless you're not going to remove the reservoir at all.
That's how I got it apart today. You must've been peeking into my garage.
Brush off what rust you can, apply some grease over it all - put it back together - fuhhhget aboutet.
Best news of today...
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6 port MC was for the Rabbit Dually Truck, that never made production.
It was slated to have dual calipered rear disc brakes on each side.
okay .... i made that up :P
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Some regular length pipe cleaners will probably work too.
Could just double a small length at the end as the "swab".
Or wad up a small section of cut cloth and twist it on tightly at the end of the pipe cleaner.
Or tie 2 pipe cleaners together.
Some creativity and ingenuity will clean these things up almost as new.
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I've cleaned a few of the reservoirs out that were nasty, and had good results. Use Brake Fluid as your solvent. Use long oversize pipe cleaners doubled up (don't remember where i got them) as "swabs". Takes a little bit of time - but have gotten them back into really nice condition even in the rearward corners. Considering they are right around $100 new, and nobody has them aftermarket - its worth an hour or so to get it cleaned up nice on the inside.
Yes, find them in several web vendors, even at busdepot.com. Most in the 125.00 range, plug shipping. Their model number, 867611301B, has a different cap than the pickup; but if one keeps the old cap, looks like it'll be OK.
OH !! And discovered why the rust between M/C and servo ... no O-ring there.
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Some regular length pipe cleaners will probably work too.
Could just double a small length at the end as the "swab".
Or wad up a small section of cut cloth and twist it on tightly at the end of the pipe cleaner.
Or tie 2 pipe cleaners together.
Some creativity and ingenuity will clean these things up almost as new. The problem is getting back into the segmented section, behind the small slit wall ... and then getting into all 4 corners and the wall itself. Got the front part OK at least.
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Yeh thats the fun part, and where the pipe cleaners work the magic.
Bend as needed.
I don't think any amount of soaking for any length of time under a month with any type of product will do it for you. I tried everything from lacquer thinner to Brake-Kleen and many things in between.
The pipe cleaners with brake fluid were like a magic wand and fairy dust.
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Wife wound up doing a fairly good job using 409 Commercial Degreaser cleaner from Lowes. With a little bit usage of the pipe cleaner like you suggested, she did a good job of getting about 95% of the crud off. Satisfies me at least; not so ugly as before.
Yeh thats the fun part, and where the pipe cleaners work the magic.
Bend as needed.
I don't think any amount of soaking for any length of time under a month with any type of product will do it for you. I tried everything from lacquer thinner to Brake-Kleen and many things in between.
The pipe cleaners with brake fluid were like a magic wand and fairy dust.
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I wouldn't use the master cylinder after you put gas in it.
it takes almost no petroleum products to expand the seals in the brake system.
Almost certainly got some gas in the master cylinder.
At the very least I would pull it apart and rinse it out and inspect it.. wouldn't want to send that gas through the rest of the system.
When you pull the rear wheel cylinders: take them apart and put gas on half the seal, remove it right away,.. see what happens.
The gas has been in the master cylinder for quite awhile now, I'm guessing at the very least it will need a rebuild kit with new seals.
Brake cleaner is what gets used in a brake system.
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You asked this a day or so ago ... and I responded ... NO gas was used in the M/C ... just the reservoir (made of hard plastic) after I had removed it from the MC.
I wouldn't use the master cylinder after you put gas in it.
it takes almost no petroleum products to expand the seals in the brake system.
Almost certainly got some gas in the master cylinder.
At the very least I would pull it apart and rinse it out and inspect it.. wouldn't want to send that gas through the rest of the system.
When you pull the rear wheel cylinders: take them apart and put gas on half the seal, remove it right away,.. see what happens.
The gas has been in the master cylinder for quite awhile now, I'm guessing at the very least it will need a rebuild kit with new seals.
Brake cleaner is what gets used in a brake system.