VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => General => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on August 22, 2010, 08:00:08 pm
-
Have had very little time welding, but something I want to get in to. And I want to get myself start up with a good base model all around welder. I was looking at Lincoln Electric from Crappy Tire and they sell this one in a kit where you get everything you need minus the gas bottle. Gloves, mask, hammer, brush, two wire rolls (normal and flux-rod), regulator, and a DVD to tell you wth to do. :P
However it is $700! I mean really its a good starting point.. but i was advised by a friend who is a welder by trade and has his own welding business to find a good used mig with bottle included and start there instead..
I will most likely be using it to fab up random stuff for whatever tickles my fancy to make.. ;) Mild steel mostly I'm assuming which is why I presume i will do best with a mig.. for price and ease of use.
Whats your opinion?
-
I have nothing to offer other than Canadian Tire often has big sales on welders since they don't really sell too many of them. I have seen the Lincoln migpak 140 for $500. I am just waiting for my local store to go under the 500 mark and I will snap a migpak up.
-
Here is a Lincoln 180 Migpak. I only sway towards this because it has all the accessories, which I will need as well being a new welder and all.
Just for confirmation.. Flux Core means the ability to weld without gas correct? like a full electric welder??
I think this is what I should spring for.. as I need one now and this has everything to literally buy it and get started.
thoughts?
-
Yeah, flux core means the core of the wire generates the shielding gas.
Some MIG units can only run flux core (ie have no ability to use gas) but the slightly more expensive ones can run both. You haven't said much about what you're planning to do with it... but if you can, my suggestion is that you go the extra mile (avoiding flux core) and lease a tank right off the bat. Much more predictable results, much more professional results, much less frustration for the weekend welder.
Lincoln is a great brand, even if they sell 'em at Canadian Tire, and even if you get one used you'll still have to lease the tank.
-
recreational welding really, mild steel i'm guessing. Exhaust work, body work, floor panels, fabricating stuff (want to make a tri-cycle LOL).
I think I will keep an eye out for a used mig with an owned bottle.
-
Try to get your friend to help you find you one. 110 volt machines would be my first choice. The gas bottles can be kinda pricey to buy. I came across a large CO2 tank and was able to trade it for a smaller bottle of the 75/25 mix I needed for the tig machine. I know $700 seems like a lot, but you are gonna really have to look shop around. Google is you friend for research. You will run into the term "duty cycle". For example a 30% duty cycle means that at full power you can weld for 3 minutes continues. 30% of 10 minutes is 3 minutes. You can also weld with Flux-core wire. There will some spatter to clean off, but you can start welding now and add the gas later (make sure the welder is made to use with gas) Then get yourself some scrap metal and go nuts!
Cheers,
-JB
He,He,He--I said Duty--He,He
-
He is keeping his eye out for me, I just wanted to verse myself on the topic so I don't go looking for something I don't know to look for lol
So a %30 is the one to look for? what happens when you try to weld for 3:30?? does it overheat and shut down?
That link i posted seems a good option to go with.. all the starting stuff, and the ability to weld without gas is cool too. but like Vince says its not as good as full Mig welding. I dunno its a good model from what i have read about it..
Is flux-core really that much worse than gas welding? does it have less penetration? less, ability of any kind?
He,He,He--I said Duty--He,He
^^^ lmfao
-
Either will work... IMO full gas is just more predictable and easier to get good results, especially if you don't weld every day. A full gas unit is usually only a couple hundred bucks more expensive than one than can't do gas.
Like I said..just my opinion, and I'm *not* a welder. I also tend to be a "go for it" guy in the tool department... I also won't really recommend 110V units, either, since you're going to be welding exhausts, etc. ;)
-
The duty cycle is "usually" how long you can run the unit continuously at full output. I just bought my welder and went through all of this. The 180 you are looking at should be you can weld at 180 for 20 minutes in a one hour time frame = 30% roughly. It won't shut down unless it gets really hot and I have only had that happen on the 110v units. But if you get a 250 unit you could run that pretty much continuously at 180 all day long. You don't need to run them that hot though doing what you are. Full power is more for thick plates 3/8" and bigger with a bevel cut into them so you can burn into it well.
For what you are doing sounds about like what I did. I got a miller 250. MUCH bigger than what I needed, but there is no such thing as UNDERKILL :D A 180 unit should do well for every thing you want to do. I would stay away from 110v units as they don't melt wire as good as the 220v. My personal opinion Miller welders melt wire better than Lincoln, but those are probably the best 2 out. Hobart is a miller with all plastic gears inside :(
If you ever want to weld aluminum or just add a spool gun, then make sure there is the capacity to do it. Mine has the ability but unless I see the need to spend another 240.00 on a bottle just for pure argon I will pay someone else. I just don't need Al welded that much. :D
-
This unit is a 230V.. seems a good deal so far. unless a good priced used one pops up.
-
I bought my HOBART Mig 110v new about 8 years ago with a full tank (40pound? about 4 feet tall) for $375. Have never needed more than that and never been any regrets. It'll do up to 1/4" steel. Its ready for its first refill now (empty).
In USA, bodyshops and muffler shops use 110v Mig units for 99% of their work. In my observation.
Can still get them (Hobart) new (w/o tank) for around 350-400 tops.
if its going to get hauled around a lot and used by multiple workers who might not be so gentle and caring - definitely get the Lincoln or Miller.
-
Don't forget about TIG welders also. TIG is a little harder to master but when you do it turns out better welds with less power so you get a smaller heat affected zone and typically much less grinding afterwords. With the economy the way it is you might be able to pick up a used TIG setup for a good price.
Also, I highly suggest an auto-darkening welding mask. You'll be futzing around with it less so it's less of a distraction. I have a Hornell Speedglass helmet like this one and it makes welding much more enjoyable.
(http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSu7zK1fslxtUNxt9Px_GevVSeChshvTSevTSeSSSSSS--)
-
Flux penetrates a little better, and is more wind tolerant, but is much harder to make a pretty weld, and can contaminate your body work from underneath.
I do a lot of mobile work, and mainly use flux core. When I use gas, it is so easy it feels like I am cheating.
With mobility in mind, I purchased a new Miller, the biggest 110 they had. No regrets, it's never let me down.
The downside is on thick metal(4x4 bumpers, fabricated flatbeds, etc), you do have to go pretty slow.
On my birthday, I scored a free stickwelder off Craigslist that picks up where this leaves off :D Much better for 3/8 plate
you DO want an auto darkening helmet. the $50 harbor freight one works, but in a frustrating never quite 100% kind of way.
IMO you do want a brand name machine with gas capability.
something like this http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/tls/1913631862.html (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/tls/1913631862.html) will be worth just as much if you decide to sell it sown the road and get a bigger machine, where a new no-name would not. It also will do all you need to practice and get good.
As I see it, TIG has a smaller heat affected area, but the point heat is higer, so you get more panel distortion at the seam....suck if you are splicing patch panels in the body.
I'd argue the better welds, but prettier without a doubt, and i wish I did have a TIG, just not sure I'd recommend it for a 1st time buyer
Some of the Chinese inverter TIGs have damn good bang for the buck factor.
-
I definitely agree that TIG is hard to learn, but then again MIG is also hard if you've never welded at all. I just have to practice with my TIG if I haven't used it for a while. One of my friends was a nuclear grade welder at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard before he injured his back and he can weld sheetmetal thinner than the typical body panel with no warpage. Now granted I can't do that but I do pretty well with mine. I've learned to keep the power as low as possible, take my time, and use a copper heat sink behind the weld site to help dissipate the heat after I stop the arc.
-
Every form of welding can produce excellent results if done right. I know guys who can produce magic with an oxyacetylene torch I would never attempt.
-
Every form of welding can produce excellent results if done right. I know guys who can produce magic with an oxyacetylene torch I would never attempt.
Yup... my bro can pick up any torch or wand and weld in any position with any rod or filler in seconds... sigh. Takes me 5 minutes practice every time I weld just to get good straight welds on plate.
2X on the auto-darken helmet too... for us Canucks Princess Auto has 'em on sale quite often. ;)
-
Every form of welding can produce excellent results if done right. I know guys who can produce magic with an oxyacetylene torch I would never attempt.
im one of those people.. i can make a oxy weld look like it was done by a TIG box. i had a champion welding teacher in high school tho.
-
I like my mig for versatility, but nothing beats the 40 year old lincoln buzz box on heavy welding. It is indestructable.
My miller 250 is very at home with the sheet metal I welded with. I got down to 22 gauge in some corner spots in my car build thread when replacing the foor. I also bought the .023" wire instead of .045" or .035" spools I had and the tips to go with it. I am no pro, but I think if I needed to feed the family I could definately get a job welding.
I think your selection will be fine Jeremy. Go get a beer and some cheese and start looking for a cheaper one.
BTW I sell ALL 3M products and can get you that speedglass helmet pretty cheap :D
-
Also, I highly suggest an auto-darkening welding mask. You'll be futzing around with it less so it's less of a distraction. I have a Hornell Speedglass helmet like this one and it makes welding much more enjoyable.
X2000 By all means these things are worth 20x what they cost.. After an incident involving fumbling around with a flip up helmet and the following HELL of welding flash to the eyes I will use nothing else..
And FYI although a mig is excellent to have around, they don;t work so well for fixing cracked engine blocks..
-
I like my mig for versatility, but nothing beats the 40 year old lincoln buzz box on heavy welding. It is indestructable.
My miller 250 is very at home with the sheet metal I welded with. I got down to 22 gauge in some corner spots in my car build thread when replacing the foor. I also bought the .023" wire instead of .045" or .035" spools I had and the tips to go with it. I am no pro, but I think if I needed to feed the family I could definately get a job welding.
I think your selection will be fine Jeremy. Go get a beer and some cheese and start looking for a cheaper one.
BTW I sell ALL 3M products and can get you that speedglass helmet pretty cheap :D
how cheap we talkin here? my brother stole my speedglass and broke it, now we are both too broke for a new one, and im stuck with a crappy shade..
-
I personally don't like flux. It's dirty compared to properly shielded MIG welds. but beggers can't be choosers can we?
-
Anybody have any info on using a mig welder in their garage? Do you need to get some kind of heavy cloth up? How easy is it to start a fire with the sparks? What about ventilation? Do welders create metal dust that will cover everything in the room?
-
I like my mig for versatility, but nothing beats the 40 year old lincoln buzz box on heavy welding. It is indestructable.
My miller 250 is very at home with the sheet metal I welded with. I got down to 22 gauge in some corner spots in my car build thread when replacing the foor. I also bought the .023" wire instead of .045" or .035" spools I had and the tips to go with it. I am no pro, but I think if I needed to feed the family I could definately get a job welding.
I think your selection will be fine Jeremy. Go get a beer and some cheese and start looking for a cheaper one.
BTW I sell ALL 3M products and can get you that speedglass helmet pretty cheap :D
how cheap we talkin here? my brother stole my speedglass and broke it, now we are both too broke for a new one, and im stuck with a crappy shade..
I can get this one to you for 155.00 plus shipping 37232
3M(TM) Speedglas(TM) Black Welding Helmet 100 with Auto-Darkening Filter 100V 07-0012-31BL/37232(AAD), Shades 8-12
I can get this one to you for 190.00 plus shipping 37237
3M(TM) Speedglas(TM) Aces High Welding Helmet 100 with Auto-Darkening Filter 100V 07-0012-31AH/37237(AAD), Shades 8-12
I can get this one to you for 130.00 plus shipping 37231
3M(TM) Speedglas(TM) Black Welding Helmet 100 with Auto-Darkening Filter 100S-11, 07-0012-11BL/37231(AAD), Shade 11
The only difference is one is an auto fixed shade, one is the graphics instead of black 8-12 variable and the other is an auto with a variable 8-12 shade in black. I could also get the fixed shade one in a 10 shade for the same price as the 11 shade.
If you needed just the helmet without the shades and headband I can get that too. Or if you just need the shade I can get that as well.
-
I personally don't like flux. It's dirty compared to properly shielded MIG welds. but beggers can't be choosers can we?
I have found that the flux core seems to work better for welding junk.. My father has used it with the gas when welding up old farm machinery.. Of course that stuff don;t have to look good anyhow
-
i definitely do not care what the welds look like. AT ALL. I'm a Function > Fashion kinda guy, and its the way to be :P Which is why my car will have proportionate tires, and stock ride height ;D
-
Anybody have any info on using a mig welder in their garage? Do you need to get some kind of heavy cloth up? How easy is it to start a fire with the sparks? What about ventilation? Do welders create metal dust that will cover everything in the room?
If you get too close to the upholstry, it will burn. wet newspaper makes good cheap protection.
I like to weld out front where the fumes can dissipate, and sunlight makes it easy to see the work. every once in a while, I have to put the grass out. You do have to be aware of fire.
Prep creates a lot of dust, and flux core can throw a lot of spatter which may stick or burn
-
If there is any way you can manage it, get a 220 used commercial machine instead of the consumer type. Way better duty cycle, better return on your investment if you ever sell it. If at all possible, get it from a dealer who will warranty it. Extra up front but fewer issues than having something fail shortly after you buy it. The warranty is one benefit of a brand new one if you can manage the cash outlay.
Flux core or stick is better if you are welding outside (wind). MIG (GMAW) is prettier but can make a good looking weld that isn't quality. TIG (GTAW) is even better cosmetically but takes more practice. Gas as mentioned can be used to cover all your welding needs but takes practice. Stick is probably the cheapest but tough if you are doing sheetmetal or light gauge exhaust, etc.
For 220, if you don't have an outlet in your garage you can make an extension cord and plug into your house stove outlet. (If your wife is understanding.)
I definitely second the suggestion to get an auto-darkening helmet. It will make a huge difference in welding ease if you don't do it regularly.
-
Everything clbanman said is right on the money in my book :)
I have a 220 air liquide 170-or is it 175 anyway I bought it probly 10 years ago,I used to have a shop and loved it with gas...then I stuggled outside w gas..waiting for lulls in the wind, making blinds etc..
Now I use flux core and it is messier, but it does work well
I have seen some amazing work on other sites with a 110 welder, but it seems everyone has to adjust to the limited duty cycle
I have welded super thin metal and 1/4 or better w multiple passes on winch mounts etc...
Go as big and best as you can afford
A welder changes your life...I know that seems a bit dramatic, but you start to see things you can weld everywhere
I also stuggled with cheap flip helmets for most of those years, until I snapped one day at the weld shop and bought a miller pro hobby helmet @ a bit over 200 canuk bucks. I thought I might have over done it, but EVERY single time I use it...I get that money well spent feeling ;D
Same feeling with a good welder...10 years later I still wish I had bumped up to a miller
but my welder works well...
Keep watchin Kijiji..I see them on there from time to time
-
I'm registering to get welding certs C,B and A this semester. You could fly me out after christmas to do all your welding ;)
-
Anybody have any info on using a mig welder in their garage? Do you need to get some kind of heavy cloth up? How easy is it to start a fire with the sparks? What about ventilation? Do welders create metal dust that will cover everything in the room?
X2 on what all else have said about dust and fire. I would like to add that the reason I have a fire extinguisher in my pic is because I caught my car on fire. The one in my build thread. The fuel line was cable tied tight to my floor that I was welding. The floor got hot enough from weld penatration to melt the cable tie which in turn melted the fuel line. That let the diesel out and leaked onto the concrete into a big flaming puddle :D
-
Anybody have any info on using a mig welder in their garage? Do you need to get some kind of heavy cloth up? How easy is it to start a fire with the sparks? What about ventilation? Do welders create metal dust that will cover everything in the room?
X2 on what all else have said about dust and fire. I would like to add that the reason I have a fire extinguisher in my pic is because I caught my car on fire. The one in my build thread. The fuel line was cable tied tight to my floor that I was welding. The floor got hot enough from weld penatration to melt the cable tie which in turn melted the fuel line. That let the diesel out and leaked onto the concrete into a big flaming puddle :D
Another thing, never weld galvanized steel indoors or without wearing a respirator, the zinc coating emits poisonous gas during welding.
-
Along with a welder, you will need other tools. A Matabo 6" grinder, A die grinder, (harbor Freight $29.00). Cut-off wheels for the grinder, accessory bits foe the die grinder. You will find these tools "worth their weight" so to speak. 8)
-
Also you'll need those cool small stainless steel bristle wooden handled brushes various grades of sandpaper for prepping the work site.
-
I did an apprenticeship as a TIG welder mumblety mumblety years ago.
My first bit of advice is take a community college course which exposes you to all types of welding. Some people find they have a knack for one type or another.
There is no good all-purpose welding, they all have their advantages and disadvantages. A well rounded course will let you play with all of them, on someone else's gas and consumables to boot.
If you go for equipment look at used. Just about every type of shop out there that has metal in it will have some welders kicking around, and lots of them are on hard times and selling equipment, cheap. Some stuff like oxy/aceteleyne rigs haven't changed much in ages. Newer inverter TIG units are the bomb, you can look for ones that have combo setups that can do a few different types well.
-
^^ Good advice! I took a welding night class at the college where I was doing my trade schooling and I'm pretty sure I used up the registration fees in materials every night. It's a great way to learn or practice while learning a lot from people with experience.