VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: erice1984 on August 21, 2010, 11:41:01 am
-
I have been "lurking" around the forums for the past few weeks reading a lot of the build threads on 1.6 and 1.9 td. I have an 80 rabbit with a decent engine in it. The car is slow, we all know this. I am curious if I get a 1.6L TD how much horse power/torque would I need to get the rabbit to accelerate 0 to 60 in under 8 seconds using an ASF transmission?
Maybe the guys who have modded engines can chime in and let me know based on their own experience.
Rough estimate on 0-60 numbers and transmission used and I could probably figure the rest out.
Thanks
-Eric
-
there are not many people that set performance goals on a "i want it to do XX mph in X seconds" kinda an odd way to put it. the TD is capable of alot of power. i can get to 60 mph in 2nd gear with a 4a 4 spd.. i dont even run a TRUE td..
-
Well I figured it was an easy way to compare things.
I bought the car because I wanted fuel economy, but it is so slow I was hoping that I could do a little performance work to the engine to make it a little faster and still maintain fuel economy.
So I guess if the car does 0-60 in 16 seconds, what would it take to get the 0-60 down to what a honda civic would do (~9 seconds)?
-
i have no idea what my car does for 0-60, 1/4 mile, anything like that, but i do know this.
there is no civic around that can keep up. first, second, and 3rd gear are awesome.. just pull and pull and pull. hell, im about ready to shift 3rd gear, and the civic is just hitting 2nd, at about 18,000 rpms.. lol
i have a VNT turbo off a TDI, and a gasser intake manifold.
the rest of the engine is stock. the fuel pump is recent, and really cranked up, but i could go farther on fueling. just dont want a head shaped dent in my hood..
you can almost blow the head off the block with enough boost/fuel
what turbo do you plan on using? are you going to use a real TD pump? its not necessary. my foot has the same function as an LDA.. i never get into the throttle 100% until i have boost built.
-
That's more the answer I was looking for. I needed something to compare the two to, otherwise one person's idea of fast is my idea of slow.
My other car is a 2000 Impreza that I put an 02 wrx engine in it and an 06 trans, mild tune and the thing will run low 13's all day.
Anyhow, I was just looking for again.. a mild setup on the 1.6L I have in the car. I also found an ecodiesel motor for a decent price <500$ I looked at it and the exhaust manifold concerns me with the turbo all the way to the drivers side of the engine and the exhaust exiting out the side of the turbo looks like there wont be any room becuase the downpipe will be right next to my brake master cylinder.
I was just looking for a T3 because they are cheap (on a budget like most)
-
That's more the answer I was looking for. I needed something to compare the two to, otherwise one person's idea of fast is my idea of slow.
My other car is a 2000 Impreza that I put an 02 wrx engine in it and an 06 trans, mild tune and the thing will run low 13's all day.
Anyhow, I was just looking for again.. a mild setup on the 1.6L I have in the car. I also found an ecodiesel motor for a decent price <500$ I looked at it and the exhaust manifold concerns me with the turbo all the way to the drivers side of the engine and the exhaust exiting out the side of the turbo looks like there wont be any room because the downpipe will be right next to my brake master cylinder.
I was just looking for a T3 because they are cheap (on a budget like most)
not trying to make you feel bad, but the other day, i let someone in a impreza get all the way up to my drivers door before i grabbed 3rd gear and a bunch of boost. this was up a hill too. next time i saw them, was the next i love racing gassers up hills. they dont have the torque to pull it like i do. that same day i smoked a pontiac GTP up a hill too.
another thing, diesels are not fast. they are quick. my diesel only goes about 110-120, but gets there quick, my GTI on the other hand, will do alot more than 120, but it takes significantly longer to get there..
as for your eco diesel, it probably has a quantum manifold on it if its all the way to the back by #4 cylinder.. if the turbo is in the middle of the manifold, mounted between cylinders 2 and 3, then its a rabbit/jetta setup. should work fine. downpipes are pretty easy to make, that is if your turbo is mounted to the right manifold.
there are T3s and K24s on here all day long. they perform about identical, bolt on the same manifold, use the same feed and return lines, and have the same exhaust flange. just that one is a KKK and one is a Garrett.
the eco diesels came equipped with a K14, and it was smaller than a normal K14. along with an 8mm fuel pump instead of a 9mm unit.
these engines were built for ECOnomy, at the expense of power..
-
Thats all I need, really no need to ever go much fast than 110-120. Not like I am trying to make a highway racer or something. My plan is around town and at least keep 80mph on the highway for a trip to next town or two over, and maintain it with some ease.
I noticed there was a difference in pistons, valves, oil squirters, etc. between the NA and turbo engines. How critical are these components for a setup like yours and what would you think the overall longevity of the engine is without them while maintaining performance like you stated from your car?
-
the pistons: only difference is the notch (for the oil squirter) in the side. they are about the same strength i would imagine.
the valves: yet again, same pieces, just sodium filled instead of solid core like n/a valves. but ive turbo'd a 1.5 diesel, and a 1.6 diesel, both my own engines. and i just bolt the turbo on the stock block, and then hammer down.
my VNT never gets my engine hot, so i really dont have to worry about piston coolers, or sodium filled valves. im sure my engine would benefit from it, but its completely not necessary. i DO need to put some sort of oil cooler on it, and an intercooler tho, those are the 2 things i think my engine NEEDS right now. besides some head studs. head studs are very important if you are going much over 15 psi.. i just dont run them because im so broke i cant afford a $110 set of studs.
one thing i remember now, my car would not do 55 up a hill to save its life, that was after i cranked the fuel pump a bit, and added a header.
then i added boost.. LOOK OUT! now i can go up hills at 55 mph, just gotta push like 2-3 psi boost. thats in 4th gear too. with a tall geared 4 speed..
-
how much boost to you run on your engine right now? 20psi?
I was going to throw an intercooler on regardless. I just dont see the point of heating up the air to 200+ degrees and trying to pressurize it, because that's just counter productive.
Oil squirters work without the notch in the pistons or am I just missing the whole point?
effectively I could find intake + exhaust manifolds and turbo and run my oil lines and be done with it? governor mod and advance timing?
-
no, you HAVE TO notch the pistons and machine the block for oil squirters. you cant just machine the block and use squirters with standard n/a pistons. the piston cant come all the way donw in the bore if it has a squirter and no notch. the squirter actually goes up into the crown of the pistons when they are at the bottom of their strokes..
and more often than not, the air is heated upwards of 400* from a turbo. least i think thats what i read somewhere..
you need: turbo, manifolds, oil lines, oil pan, filter flange.. and thats just to get the turbo installed. if you want a TD pump, thats even more. i dont feel the turbo pumps are as necessary as everyone says. my right foot can do exactly what an LDA can do. turbo and n/a fuel pumps are capable of the exact same amount of fuel too.
governor mod is kinda a necessity in my books, i like having power right to the red line of the engine. and i turn mine about 6000 rpms..
advanced timing isnt a bad idea, but its not necessary. if you could get more dynamic timing advance, that would be worth it, but thats kinda a big mod, have to disassemble the fuel pump..
and yes, most of the time i run around 15 psi boost, but on occasion, i will see 22 psi (or so)
-
That's more the answer I was looking for. I needed something to compare the two to, otherwise one person's idea of fast is my idea of slow.
My other car is a 2000 Impreza that I put an 02 wrx engine in it and an 06 trans, mild tune and the thing will run low 13's all day.
Anyhow, I was just looking for again.. a mild setup on the 1.6L I have in the car. I also found an ecodiesel motor for a decent price <500$ I looked at it and the exhaust manifold concerns me with the turbo all the way to the drivers side of the engine and the exhaust exiting out the side of the turbo looks like there wont be any room because the downpipe will be right next to my brake master cylinder.
I was just looking for a T3 because they are cheap (on a budget like most)
not trying to make you feel bad, but the other day, i let someone in a impreza get all the way up to my drivers door before i grabbed 3rd gear and a bunch of boost. this was up a hill too. next time i saw them, was the next i love racing gassers up hills. they dont have the torque to pull it like i do. that same day i smoked a pontiac GTP up a hill too.
I'd be curious to see a timeslip, always collecting data.
-
I have one from before I swapped the transmission out, and it was a pretty well dead clutch, and prior to tuning.
So this time slip is on a stock EJ205 (2002 WRX engine). With the standard 5 speed transmission the 2000 Impreza 2.5RS came with, and using the clutch meant for the 2.5RS transmission which is smaller than the WRX one.
These are three separate runs and the first time I went to a drag strip.
So here it is:
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8671/20051022byrondragway.th.jpg) (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20051022byrondragway.jpg)
EDIT: I am car #168
-
Damn that's quick, very nice. I have an old AWD Legacy Wagon sitting around I've been trying to decide what to do with.
-
sorry, I am car #168 on those slips. I will say that for those that overlooked it.
-
That's more the answer I was looking for. I needed something to compare the two to, otherwise one person's idea of fast is my idea of slow.
My other car is a 2000 Impreza that I put an 02 wrx engine in it and an 06 trans, mild tune and the thing will run low 13's all day.
Anyhow, I was just looking for again.. a mild setup on the 1.6L I have in the car. I also found an ecodiesel motor for a decent price <500$ I looked at it and the exhaust manifold concerns me with the turbo all the way to the drivers side of the engine and the exhaust exiting out the side of the turbo looks like there wont be any room because the downpipe will be right next to my brake master cylinder.
I was just looking for a T3 because they are cheap (on a budget like most)
not trying to make you feel bad, but the other day, i let someone in a impreza get all the way up to my drivers door before i grabbed 3rd gear and a bunch of boost. this was up a hill too. next time i saw them, was the next i love racing gassers up hills. they dont have the torque to pull it like i do. that same day i smoked a pontiac GTP up a hill too.
I'd be curious to see a timeslip, always collecting data.
x2
These little vehicles take a lot more work than a ghetto td to beat anything under any circumstances they are neither fast nor quick. Are you sure the other drivers had any intention of trying to overtake you?
-
Are you sure the other drivers had any intention of trying to overtake you?
I didn't want to be the first to say it. No doubt there is a lot of improvement to be had on an IDI TD, but really.
On the subie timeslips, that's still pretty good in my opinion. Those motor's are so smooth too.
-
Yeah, It sounds really good too.
I wasn't trying to race my rabbit at all, I just don't want to be beat by a geo metro. In other words I don't want to be the fastest nor the slowest.
I am just looking for enough to get me to a reasonable power level and be able to maintain an 80mph cruising speed with ease and efficiency.
Just let me know if that is not possible of an IDI.
-
Any healthy stock-ish 1.6td will do what you want, nothing fancy required. The power don't look like much on paper but it's a great help in driveability out in the world. The downside is decreased life and increased wear (which is debatable weather it'll matter to most people), a mess of plumbing underhood, harder to work on, etc, etc. Same as any other turbo setup. I've had both, prefer NA. Healthy is the key, these motors will run forever and a day 3/4 worn out. As most of them are and do if you look close. Part of there charm.
-
Yeah, It sounds really good too.
I wasn't trying to race my rabbit at all, I just don't want to be beat by a geo metro. In other words I don't want to be the fastest nor the slowest.
I am just looking for enough to get me to a reasonable power level and be able to maintain an 80mph cruising speed with ease and efficiency.
Just let me know if that is not possible of an IDI.
For the 80mph with ease job, get a Quantum...
-
Well my money is in the rabbit. What does the quantum have that makes it quicker than the rabbit?
-
i have no idea what my car does for 0-60, 1/4 mile
his car or my car? the car has never been down a track. ever. and my rabbit is quick. way quicker than my GTI..
and yea, the guy in the suby wanted to race. shoulda seen his girlfriend sock him in the ribs. was priceless.
-
i have no idea what my car does for 0-60, 1/4 mile
his car or my car? the car has never been down a track. ever. and my rabbit is quick. way quicker than my GTI..
and yea, the guy in the suby wanted to race. shoulda seen his girlfriend sock him in the ribs. was priceless.
Your car. You should really get some sort of hard numbers.
-
well, before i go abusing it at the track, i need an intercooler, new rear engine mount, and some tires that are not 155/80 snow tires..
when i get the intercooler, i may even wind my fuel screw in some more, i have about 3 full turns to go before i run out of idle adj..
pump on my black car was maxed out at about the same power level. this one has a half mile to go before its maxed out.
and not like im trying to brag, but i had one of the coolest diesels at Waterland. definitely the loudest turbo'd street car that i heard. and it was a total sleeper on top of it.
-
This is a little late but I own a 1985 Golf with a 1.6 TD engine (out of a Jetta). It's intercooled too. I could not imagine driving a stock naturally aspirated VW diesel every day. The lack of acceleration would be exasperating but I think I lack the patience a lot of you have. The turbo makes a very noticeable difference and without one, I wouldn't really enjoy the car though my car lags quite a bit until my turbo is fully spooled up.
Anyway, my car is pretty fast for what it is (an economical car), I still haven't unleashed it's full potential as the restrictive stock exhaust is still there and the injection pump isn't tweaked.
It WILL easily overtake someone at 80 mph on the freeway which I think is what you're looking for. I have seen some priceless looks from people who were passed by an old VW diesel. I don't like to keep up with the Porsches cruising along at 90 mph on I-5, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to spin the VW IDI diesel engine that fast for long periods of time but I'm quite sure my car is capable of it.
-
how does it impact the fuel mileage?
-
If you want to be able to cruise at 80mph then I highly recommend getting a taller geared tranny. I have an ACN (common gasser trans) that runs way better on the highway than the typical diesel trans. I am also swapping in a .71 5th gear that will make it even better at highway speed. That's why these cars are so great, they're like big Lego toys.
-
Yeah, I have an ASF.
-
how does it impact the fuel mileage?
You talking to me?
I have no idea. I'm probably one of the worst people to ask on this website. I honestly have no idea what kind of mileage my car gets. All I know is that it's better than almost anything else on the road and that it's still fun to drive. That's what's important to me. The difference in fuel consumption between 45 mpg and 40 isn't really enough for me to be concerned over anyway and I honestly think I would get worse mileage with a n/a car due to the fact that I would be using a much heavier foot.
And yes, taller fifth gear helps too with cruising speed and cruising mileage.
-
right thats understood.. I was more speaking of mpg in controlled "experiment"
Maybe I will have to do that since I am setting myself up for it.
I was after something like this:
Using transmission "A"
on a naturally aspirated 1.6L Diesel
Over the course of ~2 months driving in temperatures of <enter temp here> I achieved an average of city/city+highway/highway driving mpg. Using some or none fuel additives.
After turbo/timing/tune
Using transmission "A"
2 months in temps of <enter temp here> mpgs, fuel additives..
You get the point.
It didn't need to be MIT scientific but a rough idea of what its like after turbocharging the engine.
-
my car used to struggle to go 50 mph up hills in 3rd, now i can pull hills at about 90 in 4th. 55 up hills is pretty much off idle. and it takes about 3 psi to do it.
-
Will the ACN 5 speed fit an engine code CY without any mods to anything? Mines a 83 jetta 1.6 td
Im looking for a good used transmission mine went out and im looking to cruise at 75 to 80 MPH.
Because the transmission shop wants $400 plus labor to rebuild the stock one. and i can buy a good used one cheaper.
Thanks in advance
-
it will bolt to the engine. but its gonna have to have the 3 studs on the final drive to bolt up the rear trans mount.
good trans too, nice close 1-4, with a super high fifth. my GTI has one and does pretty good actualy, but the trans was bought for a diesel, just used it because i blew up my GTI trans and only had that trans to replace it with.
-
For those who are curious, I have not really noticed an increase or decrease in MPG. Might be the way I drive though...
-
me either. i know it burns more tho, cause its funner to drive..
-
it will bolt to the engine. but its gonna have to have the 3 studs on the final drive to bolt up the rear trans mount.
good trans too, nice close 1-4, with a super high fifth. my GTI has one and does pretty good actualy, but the trans was bought for a diesel, just used it because i blew up my GTI trans and only had that trans to replace it with.
so your saying i could get some parts from lowes and put it in, so i wont have to have special parts.
-
if you have all the mk1 5 speed specific parts, it will pretty much bolt right in. your cars an 83 jetta right?
-
@dankcorey22
http://brokevw.com/ (http://brokevw.com/)
That is pretty much all the information you need.
if you have a 020 transmission in your car right now, (if it is an 83 jetta it has a 020 trans) then you can swap any other 020 type transmission in its place, with the exception of...
the axle flanges come in two different sizes 90mm and 100mm, 100mm being on later models. I believe all 4 speeds transmission had 90mm flanges
The other difference is how the transmission bolts to its transmission support. Earlier models used studs and later models used holes.
You can see the mounting differences here: http://brokevw.com/020mount.html (http://brokevw.com/020mount.html)
Forum courtesy dictates that you do not post a question that is not relevant to the thread.
Start your own thread and people will respond, but use the search function first as people get tired answering the same questions frequently.
Take care.
-
if you have all the mk1 5 speed specific parts, it will pretty much bolt right in. your cars an 83 jetta right?
yes it is a 83
-
if you have all the mk1 5 speed specific parts, it will pretty much bolt right in. your cars an 83 jetta right?
yes it is a 83
yea, then just pull all the specific parts off a mk1 car, then you can bolt in almost whatever trans you want. you will need the trans mount, shift linkages, the ball on the relay shaft, and maybe a couple other parts, its been so long since ive done a conversion.
-
I have all the parts off of the stock transmission. but i guess your saying they differ?