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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: ORCoaster on August 13, 2010, 10:45:33 pm
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I have replaced the O rings on most of the injection pump, replaced the cast iron distribution head and the matched high pressure portion of the pump. I can get fuel into the body of the high pressure side but nothing comes out of the check valves. Like there is an airlock. But I open the valves a bit and get fuel to seep out when I am spinning it with a drill. Also can get it out of the timing adjustment check port. I have no bubbles in the incoming or outgoing fuel when it is spinning. I don't know the internal pressure as I have no gauge fixed up to do that.
Any ideas how to get the pump to spit fuel out the high pressure side. I have the throttle lever to the max and the fuel adjustment screw all the way in. Can't figure this baby out.
Oh yea, the pump was working before I started replacing the leaky seals. Fuel was pouring out at several places, mostly the back and the cold start lever.
Any help would help. I am puzzled out after a week of this.
DAS
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(Assuming you're powering the stop solenoid)
Fuel will dribble out the loosened delivery valves and the dial indicator port with ease, but the delivery valves won't open without significant pressure... well over 1500 psi of memory serves. So, the high pressure side needs to be working properly *and* the pump needs to be cranked with enough HP to generate the high pressures required.
Andrew was working on a powered test bench with a pretty substantial motor... the real Bosch test bed has a large 220V motor as well... I'm wondering if you'd tried the pump in the car or just spinning it with an electric drill and are not able to generate enough pressure?
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Thanks for the get backs. And by such distinguished gentlemen at that!
I was running the power solenoid with a jumper to the battery but that got cumbersome with a one person show and the pump on a 2 by 6 across the front of the engine bay. So I just have the little plunger and spring out for now. Figured that would allow fuel all the the time and not need the power.
Spinning the pump is done with a 1/2 inch drill running at 850 RPM. Is that underpowered? I can't see how cranking the starter would do any better. I was trying to get away from the issue of sticky vanes by not spinning it fast enough.
So to answer the two questions above. No power, open valve. Not willing to hook up the old washing machine motor just yet. But that may become an option as I have talked to the local VW shop and he said he had two pumps sitting in the back and had no idea if they were good and didn't have customers to send them off to Portland for a rebuild. I may look at those if my son can't find the old pump he had at one time and send it to me.
Again thanks for the ideas, but I think I got that far in my thinking. Any others?
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Have you taken apart the delivery valves? If not I would do that next. You should have gotten 4 or 6 new copper washers in your seal kit for them. The torque spec is posted in the FAQ or it is in the MK3 bentley. Often those get gummed up with old fuel and lock shut. If you find some that are locked up only replace them as complete assemblies and replace all 4 of them from the donor pump. You do not want to mix and match! Inside the holder there is the delivery valve, a spring and a shim/wear washer and a copper washer.
I think on the 1.6's it's only something like 30 psi to open the delivery valves.
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Well Tyler,
I did get a kit and did take each of these valves apart and cleaned them up. Not much of anything in them. Wouldn't expect it really. But the psi information is good to know. Bentley? What do I need that for? You guys have it memorized. I will try some air pressure on the valves tomorrow. I know that they are mobile as I can poke them from the one end before I install them and they do move.
I will also pop the governor top on this nasty boy and double check triple check that the collar and tab on the gov lever are in the right place. Could the distance between the governor and the control stop be out to far and it is just spilling the fuel before it gets up to pressure?
I was studying a VE diagram in the manual and that seems a possibility I hadn't thought of before. I didn't change any settings when I did the seals because I didn't want to deal with this kind of a project. So much for that big idea.
Thanks for thinking. DAS
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I think on the 1.6's it's only something like 30 psi to open the delivery valves.
Could be... I'm an AAZ/ALH dude myself these days. ;)
In any event if you're spinning it with a 1/2" drill and able to maintain 800 RPM pressure delivery is probably not the issue...oh well.
I've seen delivery valves gummed up before as well, so I'd say Burn's given you a great next step.
I suppose you could also leave the guts out of one to see if fuel will pass straight thru?
The usual cause of no fuel out the high pressure end other than a trickle in my experience has been when I mess up getting the control collar hooked up correctly...just another thought.
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Yea that is why I think I will pop the top and look in there just to be sure I didn't slip it out of place when I eased the pump in place. Two sets of springs to watch along with the main delivery shaft and then give it a squeeze and hope for the best. I do glue the small springs to the cast body with petroleum jelly. But even with the slow and easy approach I can see only one thing at a time.
DAS
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You'll get 'er. Complex as they are they are actually pretty simple machines... just high high high precision.
I recently inherited a box of parts from someone else's teardown... they had tried to use silicone sealant to seal the big o-ring on the high pressure end with predictable results. Box of parts looked like a total disaster, but I figured WTH, and after cleaning and a rebuild it fired up perfectly, first try.
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I envy your success. I was hoping for a simple afternoon under the hood and I got a weeks worth so far. Some vacation.
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If everything looks normal when you take the top off you should remove at least one of the delivery valves. If they are overtorqued they crush and break.
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Planning to test each Check valve with air pressure to see when they pop open as well as governor placement/alignment. Will report back later.
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OK, got out the compressor and the gauges and the hoses. Are you sure about that 30 psi check valve pressure? Mine crack about 58-60 psi.
Am going to try to measure the output on the pump itself next. Without the check valves in place to see what is being delivered in the first place. Isn't it supposed to be pretty high? Like 130 bar for the injectors to work?
Later DAS
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You'll get 'er. Complex as they are they are actually pretty simple machines... just high high high precision.
I am always amazed at how simple yet how complex Bosch VE pumps actually are. No electronics yet so many parameters are finely controlled just by internal fuel pressure and rpm. I have seriously thought about getting a tattoo of a Bosch pump someplace. :o
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I wouldn't want to be continually reminded about a Bosch VE pump right now.
I spun the pump with a drill and measured 58-60 lbs at the back of the check valve without the internals in it. So either the gauge I am using is not picking up the suttle difference between the pressure to open the valve and that which is being delivered to do the job. Seems with them so close in pressures I should be seeing some sort of weeping of fuel. But then again, it is a Bosch and if they want 62.5 lbs to be delivered it best be there or nothing is going to happen.
Anyone else ever measure their pump in this manner? Or are there specs available on the pressures I should have?
Getting tired of being immersed in diesel all day. I want to go for a ride!
DAS
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Accelerator lever on the right splines?
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I marked them prior to removal but the nondelivery of fuel prior to me taking the top off was the initial issue. I tested the levers after reassembly and all seems to work according to the look of things.
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If you completely block off the delivery valve hole (on the pump head) with a gauge there can be enough pressure generated to crack the pump head. It's a positive displacement pump and that fuel needs to go somewhere.
Just to clarify, your pump was not delivering any fuel out the check valves so you resealed it and at the same time replaced the head, rotor and control sleeve? You now have the exact same problem.
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Tyler, No that was not the case. The pump was working and the Rabbit ran fairly well before I got to it. It was leaking fuel out the back of the pumpcase, the cold start lever and possibly the upper gasket under the accel levers. What I did was purchase a seal kit and start replacing those that leaked.
In my efforts to get the back of the pump off I ended up breaking the shaft so I had to purchase a new pump and shaft from an unnamed parts place on the net. You guys dis him. Didn't know that then. But his tech help person is corresponding with me so maybe you folks changed that for the better.
So my running pump got new seals and a new pump and now it is not giving me fuel out the distributor block. The main shaft moves in and out about the 1 mm it should but the final pressure will not open the check valves.
I have fuel coming in from the filter and out through the outlet to the tank and it is as clear as it can be, no bubbles. Could the new pump I purchased be defective? Ever hear of that?
What pressure should those check valves see from the high side of the pump? And should they open at 30 PSI as listed above?
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Ah, if your distro block and plunger are new, and are being fed fuel but unable to generate enough pressure to overcome the delivery valves... a function that demands extreme parts precision and tight tolerances... yup, I'd suspect your new parts.... even if I didn't know they come from a vendor who's parts have a track record of being challenged from a precision perspective ;)
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Yeah, that's probably your problem right there. The problem with getting a new rotor and plunger is the shims are now all out of spec. Such as the shim between the cam plate and plunger and the springs as well. You really have no idea if the plunger and head were ever meant to be used in that particular pump. You could probably get it to work but it will take a lot of rebuilding and tearing apart the pump. You would have been much better off finding a core Bosch pump and using the parts off that. :-[
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Ah HA, So I am not brain dead! Well don't ask the wife about that just yet.
This was my conclusion: That some tolerance must be out of whack, and I specifically asked the tech about the possibility of the little washer being worn and thus not providing enough or to much slack in the system. I have to remember grampas work in the machine shop. If it is a Bosch it better be correct.
So why do they sell these parts individually if there is little chance of them working in a used unit?
My recourse at this time is to send it back as it is worthless to me for my purposes, that ought to be entertaining. Returns, refunds and customer satisfaction are all tied into one bundle and like the pump the tolerances are pretty fine. I will let you know if I succeed or they tell me differently.
Thanks for helping out on this. I guess I just threw caution to the wind and jumped in the middle of something deeper than a 2 foot hole. Be more cautious next time, I will. And you folks help with that. You have become a nightly read for me.
Keep up the good work and helping not only me but the host of others out there as well.
Later DAS
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Accelerator lever on the right splines?
Hey this guy had a good question. ;D
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Fatmobile, are ya burnin WVO? My son's rabbit was hooked up that way and the backyard stunk of fry oil for years after he moved out. In fact I was digging around a few months ago and stirred up a stink of it in the gravel where the 55 gallon drum was located.
But to answer your question I didn't move the levers until after I started having the no fuel situation. By that time I was using hints and tech help that caused me to have to pull the governor cover off so I made sure I scribed the levers and the shaft to be sure it went back the way it came apart. Only two springs and two levers on this one. I didn't see an internal spring under the cover as described on this site elsewhere in the pictures and writeup on how to rebuild a VE pump. I have discovered what the VE stands for now. Very Expensive Virtually Endless.
I think I got the levers on OK. Looking through the banjo port things do move but only a little. My guess is that is all they need to move to control that massive amount of Bunny Power.
You do make the rounds on the forums do you not? I guess if I was surrounded by corn in IA all day I would be netting a bunch as well.
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Here is what I have from the tech I am corresponding with:
With the delivery valve in, fuel pressure out of the rotor should be at least 155 bar / 2247.5 psi.
If you are not getting that pressure it’s not enough to open the injector.
Actual pump internal pressure is around 60 PSI. Could be the feed pump is bad or not installed correctly.
So I guess it is RMA time! Joy of Joys! Nice he sent me some numbers and that they verify my first stage is OK.
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Set that shaft on a different spline,... or turn the max fuel screw in before you try anything difficult.
I do burn some vegetable oil, but don't manage to get it all over the place and do have a burn barrel for oil rags, etc.
I do get around to a few of the vw forums, have been floating down the river on a tube lately.
Surrounded by corn and beans don't forget the beans.
Tomatos are coming on strong and all my cabbage-loving friends are well taken care of. ;)
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I did run the fuel adjustment screw all the way in at someones suggestion. Maybe the tech I was working with. How do they say that? NO JOY.
I might move the lever to a different spline just for the test. Ya never know, sometimes it is the minor not major tweaks that make a difference.
If I don't get any results I have the permission to send the part back now. So the pump gets pulled apart anyway this weekend.
Enjoy the corn, beans and cabbage. Just not all at one time, otherwise your "friends" may take notice.
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The usual cause of no fuel out the high pressure end other than a trickle in my experience has been when I mess up getting the control collar hooked up correctly...just another thought.
Can you expand on this? I think I am having a similar problem, only all of my pump parts are original.
I had my pump apart to replace seals then I put it back together and fired it up and the engine ran away (another thread) so I know my valves are GOOD. I took it apart again and saw that the control collar was sliding freely towards the back and not mated to the internal control lever at all. I rectified this, put it all back together properly and got NO fuel out of the delivery valves. Same issue. Solenoid has been eliminated as a possibility. Tried max fuel screw and throttle position in various combinations.
I am puzzled because there is only one way for the lever to go in the control collar. I am 90% sure the control collar is facing the right direction. Still nothing. Help!
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I thought I had trouble with the tab getting aligned into the hole in the collar as well and pulled the top off the pump to see if it was engaged properly as well. Not the problem. I did notice that there is a bevel on one side of the collar and a hole for lubrication I suppose. I tried putting the collar on both ways just in case there was some minor difference in the distance between the hole and either edge of the collar. I never measured it. The tear apart pictorial on this site and the exploded views I see in the Bosch literature I have show the bevel to the front of the pump. But I wasn't sure and built it both ways neither of which made a difference.
I sent the parts back to NC today via UPS. Should get my return parts in a couple of weeks. By then my son will have sent me a spare pump he had and I expect to have it working this time next week. Seems like the more parts I touch on this lil fur ball the more I am spending money on it.
Tools, bushings and window rebuild, wiring harness for the 99 cent ebay special radio and I think I have dropped a quick 50 on this thing this weekend. And it is only Sat. night. This animal is getting all my beer money. Not a good thing.
Later DAS
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What is the difference between a pump stamped 107 A and 107 AP? My son sent me a spare he had and it looks like the same pump but is the 107 A. Can anyone tell me if one was an upgrade to the other or just different times of production or what?
Had only enough time this evening to check the condition of the pressure screw and cold start o rings. He tells me it has been 4 years on the shelf and he ran veg oil through it before he swapped it out with the first pump he had that was leaking. Once we threw some new o rings on that leaky dog it was good as new so he decided to swap back to it rather than play with adjusting this one for his needs.
Later DAS
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Update for you reading pleasure. Was able to get the spare pump my son sent me installed in the car. Verified solenoid worked, changed spring from silver colored to red in dynamic advance side, swapped cold start lever as his had no plastic bushings. Pump worked fine with drill spin test. All four check valves spitting fluid when I hotwired the solenoid with 12 VDC.
Primed pump and tried to start. Runs for 20 to 30 seconds then dies. Check for air in lines, tightened the delivery nuts a bit as some were spraying still. Working on double checking the placement of the pump timing notch compared to the TDC on the flywheel. Thought it looked dead on after two rotations of the engine but maybe not. Was getting dark, ma was calling dinner and I was not real happy.
continue tomorrow.
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Kind of what I thought Andrew. Been reading this Forum long enough now to kind of know what works and when. I rigged up the quart bottle off the wife's hanging basket chain from the hood. Sucker fired right up on the first half turn. But Wait!
That is all it would do, idle, not one iota of acceleration. AND no fluid of any kind out the line to the fuel tank on top. So I figured as long as it is at idle move the IP for a better timing mark. Just in case it started to do different.
Well I unscrewed the pressure screw up front a tad and punched down the pin hoping to increase the internal pump pressure. No Change. So I told my wife I was going to have to take the pump apart to free up the vanes.
The pump sat in my sons garage for about four years and he said it had "issues" when he sent it to me. He picked it up from Craigs list back then for about 80 bucks.
So I am going to wait on the place I bought my other parts from. They should send them this week. I will rebuild my original pump and hope it works like it is supposed to. If not then I may take the back end off the second IP from my son and try that on the front of the first. I know that one has about 65 lbs of internal pressure as I measured it.
VW's are just like life. Simple in most respects but complex when things go wrong.
Thanks for confirm on the stuck vanes. I feel that just knowing I have learned something from all of you guys makes the breakdown a little less frustrating. Glad this is the project car. I was really hoping to have converted it to a true bi-fueler by now. I am striving for 60 mpg and running on diesel and propane.
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As for the pump with stuck vanes, run it off of biodiesel. You might need to use a lift pump to boost the internal pressure up as well. Expect the pump to leak though. Increasing the internal pump pressure helps to force the vanes out.
Saying that your pump has 65 psi of internal pressure is kind of useless without specifying the RPM. Actually if you have the gauge to measure internal pressure you can check to see if the vanes are good. Sometimes old pumps just need to run a while to free up.
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Tyler/burnyobucks,
I actually have two pumps with two different problems. pump #1 had the problem of not getting fuel pressure up and out the checkvalves. I sent the back of the pump back to NC, you know, THAT GUY. but I haven't heard what they will do to replace the part that wasn't working. I expect an exchange to happen next week or so.
Pump #2 I received from my son who had a Rabbit and it was converted to run on WVO. That pump has the stuck vanes as it sat in his garage for some years he says before it came to me. I have tomorrow off for the long holiday and was thinking of two things. First that the pump has just been sitting out there with diesel in it for the week now and I might just fire it up and see what happens. Lord willing it will work like it is supposed to. If not I shoot the sucker dead to rights and slap a for sale sign on it pronto. No I couldn't do that? It is the project car!
So I will most likely try building one pump out of the two and hope it works like it is supposed to.
The 65 lbs of pressure in pump #1 was measured running at about 850 RPM using the 1/2 drill on the nut on the pulley. So I am pretty sure that front end is good. Pump 2 does feed the injectors but only when I feed it from a bottle elevated above the pump. Otherwise it revs up and dies. Classic stuck vane behavior. I would really like to drive this bunny again. I have all kinds of things changed out on it and I want to see if they work. Like the back brakes for instance. They were frozen up solid when I bought it.
I'll resolve this one way or another and let all know. Lots of these threads seem to die without the conclusion being told. It's like they fixed the problem and we never know what the outcome was. Who reads a book and tears out the final chapter so no others can do the same?
Later
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If that is the only problem with pump #2 I would hook up a CIS pump to it and run it on bio diesel for a week. I would build that pressure gauge for the outlet so you can keep an eye on when the vanes free up, if they do. I've rebuilt pumps where the vanes seized and I had to use a punch to hammer the vanes out. Those ones went in the scrap pile of course....
If you do try and rebuild a pump I would just use #2 and keep as many as the pieces original to it in that one. Really all you might have to do is change the transfer pump.
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Kind of hoping that can be all that I need to do. I am busy today working on another project but I just had to try and fire that baby up just now. Kind of a brain break, maybe inspirational time. So out I go with the hoses, jar and syringe to pull fuel into the pump. All set, glows plugs cycled, crank, fire, idle....crapa lupa. Tomorrow is VW pump swap out day for sure now.
Reading that you had to punch the vanes out leaves me little hope that these bad boys are just going to magically unlock themselves by soaking for the last week. If the front end is that bad I have another much better replacement.
Will use as much of pump as i can and see what happens.
Thanks for the get back.
Anyone learning anything here besides me?
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Well, Now I am really baffled. I combined what I thought were the two working halves of the two pumps I have and Yes I get fuel to squirt out the checkvalves but again it only idles. There is a large amount of fuel being pumped through the front end. I didn't measure the quantity over time but it really was moving the tiny bubbles until they all went away.
So what controls the speed of a rabbit exactly. If is pressure at the injectors how is it regulated. I will study the Bosch manual and drawings to see what I can come up with. But initially I think there is some sort of junk still plugging up the highside of this pump. When I pulled it apart I noticed a varnish like coating on the inside of the front end and the little collar on the shaft of the splined part of the pump was stuck to the front and I had to work to get it to come free. Once it was free I didn't have any trouble getting the two pumps to go together.
Should I clean the checkvalves on this dirty bugger? Do you think there is something keeping the flow down to a minimum and that is what is keeping it from revving up?
Thinking and looking for answers. Help a guy out will ya. What have you used to "boil out the junk" from a VE pump?
Later
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Here's a pic that may help, in conjunction with Andrew's explanation:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/VEpumpcrosssectioncloseup.jpg)
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I was studying the one that has the governor operation on it on page 24 of the Bosch VE pump manual that has been posted here before.
Can't seem to cut and paste it as I thought I could from where I am reading it.
As I was reading the various descriptions on the position of the collar at start up, idle, run and noload high RPMs I picked up on the fact that at startup the governor shaft is not pressing on the mechanism until rotations start. Make sense as the counterweights are doing the work and need to spin. And I do notice a very slight increase in RPM on startup then it goes into a very low idle. So low that the Ignition light glows on steady.
Back to removing the pump and doing another look through. I think I will check the checkvalves for junk in the lines too.
Later DAS
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What happens when you try to rev it up? If it doesn't stall I would be adjusting the throttle and max fuel screw before taking stuff apart.
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Max fuel screw all the way in and is the only way I get any idle out of it at all. With the pump still on the car I guess I should relocate the acceleration arm a notch or so. It does move the full range of motion and I backed off the set screw all the way so I would get even more movement. Could the pivot arm under the cap where the governor is be 180 degrees out of alignment? I guess I best check on that too.
With all of that out of the way I will also see how the collar lines up with the spill hole on the pump shaft. It seems that is the problem and the fuel is just being dumped out back into the low pressure side of the pump.
Was a little wet and rainy out this morning and without a garage I choose to do other things that have jumped from the pan to the fire.
Thanks for thinking with me on this. Many heads make more possibilities.
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Will do, sure beats the remove the pump option. Engine will not REV at all. Just a very faint increase at startup then down to a low RPM rumble that is just short of stalling. No Smoke out the back and no matter what I do to get the engine to increase speed, sorry RPMs, speed is movement of a different sort, nothing happens.
Thanks for the description above Andrew and I will let ya all know what comes of it.
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ARRRRGGGGHHHH It is really getting to me now.
I did the check on the accel arm. Perfect as far as I can tell. Just took it apart and tried the counterclockwise turn and the index mark was right there where the tension was gone and I could feel the governor starting to kick in. I took a pair of pliers and slowly turned the shaft like I was using the arm and it came right back to where it was initially.
Step two, took the top off since it was mostly apart anyway. Got out my trust 2 inch compact mirror and shined the sunshine down into the area where the collar is located. All looked fine there all parts moving. Could not see the spill hole as it was out of view.
On to step three. Just yank that pump outta that stinking Rabbit! Tore the backend off and could not see any problems with check valves, or anything else. I did swap out the cam plate for the other one I had just to be sure I changed something with all the work I have into it today.
Slapped it back together and ?????
Yep, just ran at idle. No faster.
Do you think that I need to adjust the governor shaft in some way? With the combining of two different pumps does that sound like the problem? How do I adjust that screw. I know that the thread on there with lefthanded threads but do I take the shaft all the way in to bump the lever inside just barely then back it off a few turns or what?
Seems I read that it comes back 3 mm from the touchpoint or something like that.
There isn't that much mechanical going on in these things. How can it be this crazy?
More suggestions please.
I did get started on cleaning out the front of the one pump this evening. Man it is like someone varnished the insides. The vanes were stuck, yeah really goopped in there. Some Seafoam, brake cleaner and then a wipe with diesel and they slide like new. I will rebuild the pump with all its original parts and see if that is the ticket to getting acceleration back.
I think there must be something wrong with the governor assembly on the pump I am using. Everything else seems to check out.
Later DAS
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Do you have a camera? Can you take a bunch of pictures of pump in it's varying states that you have it in?
What did you time the pump to?
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Yes, have camera. What do you want to see? Mechanically it all looks solid. Was thinking swapping the governor mechanism from pump 2 into pump 1 as it is still on the car and was running at idle. When it is running I can shift the pump front to back to find the smooth spot at that rpm. At one time I did measure it to be real close to .9 and the sticker on the wheel well says to time to .88.
So I don't think timing is an issue here but hey I'm taking all the advice I can so let me know what it is you want in the way of pics and I pop and post a few.
later
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Sometimes the sleeve that rides on the governor shaft seizes
on and it will prevent the pump from increasing fuel. Basically nullifies the throttle arm. Is that sleeve able to slide freely back and forth?
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Also, like you mentioned a couple posts ago, if the governor axis is turned too far into the pump, it will prevent the throttle levers from increasing fuel.
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Rally,
That sleeve, the entire governor portion of the pump and the vane pump seem to be free as a bird when it comes to operation. When I had the pump apart I could spin the whole front end with my thumb and fingertips. Didn't even need the pulley on the shaft and the whole thing was buzzing with the internal workings. When I took the gov cap off, must have done this at least 6 times now, I am able to flick that sleeve with my finger and if moves freely.
I compare that with the second pump my son sent me and it is like day and night. That WVO gunk in, on and throughout the pump is just a sticky coating everywhere and I have to pull, pry and dissolve moving parts apart. So I know stuck. Funny thing, that pump still worked just like the one I am trying to cobble together.
Will keep trying later today. Have some other office, yard work, then car to do today, and oh yeah, it is a holiday right? Well maybe not north of the border.
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So you removed the accelerator lever to set it on a different spline but decided you liked the way it "felt" and didn't change it,..
and it does the same thing?
hmmm.
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Well, when you put it that way it sounds pretty bad. One of those if you always do what you did don't expect different results kind of thing. But I did do "stuff" different and it didn't make any difference.
Hear tell. I removed the levers and did as Andrew suggested. Twist counterclockwise until I could feel the pressure of the springs as resistance. I looked at the markings I had for my past alignment and they were just spot on. So I started the car. Remember it idles but won't accelerate. Once it is sort of putt putting along I get out and turn the shaft with a small sized pair of pliers. Full counterclockwise to simulate full throttle. What do I get? Nada. So I return the mark on the shaft to the mark on the body of the pump and the engine is still putting along. So I turn it the other way. Result? Car dies. :P
I did it twice and figured that the lever position isn't the problem here because I can make it do worse by taking them off and getting it to go below idle and full wide open and there is no change to my problem.
So, I got the result I had before but not because I just removed the levers and put them back on when I "felt" the position was as good as it was supposed to be.
It is raining tonight and getting darker sooner so no playing with the bunny. I will have to start leaving work early I think in order to get any time before the weekend to solve problems. Just the same keep those thinking caps on. Wrap a little more aluminum foil on those noodle strainers for me will ya?
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Damn, I wish I could help you figure this out.
I'm out of suggestions,.. for now.
I was thinking the fuel was being limited by a max fuel screw that wasn't turned in far enough or lever on the wrong splines.
Only thing else I can think of is timing 180 degrees out.
Pin inside pump lines up with keyway on shaft right?
Since fuel comes out the delivery valves now;
turn the pump and see if it pumps out the right hole at the right time.
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Next time you have the top off the pump verify that the center piece that is pushed out by the flyweights is moving freely. If it can idle it probably is free though. Also, take a picture of the insides and post it just in case something is a-miss. Take a picture of the bottom half of the pump and also take a picture of the governor spring assembly. Did you say you swapped the governor from one pump to another? If you did, put the original one back in the pump.
Try putting the throttle lever on upside down and keep turning it until it won't turn anymore, then lift it off and put it back on in the idle position without turning the shaft, then turn it until it stops. Basically what you are doing is maxing out the shafts rotation internally, not on any of the stops on the pump.
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If this shaft is turned too far into the pump, it will not increase fuel properly.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/axegouverneur.jpg)
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If this shaft is turned too far into the pump, it will not increase fuel properly.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/axegouverneur.jpg)
Before I disassembled my pump that now has the same problem, I noted that shaft as being approximately flush with its nut. I installed it back the same way guesstimating it to be flush the same way before I took it apart. How sensitive is that to the fueling? You were saying it can nullify all throttle positions if too far in? What happens if it is too far out?
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Try this parhaps
The second photo has a red arrow showing the gauze inlet to the high pressure piston. It was completely blocked with brown gunk. The result was I could start the engine but had no power and had to crawl home at 20kmh
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_users/4038-injector_pump_blocked_gunge.html
This is for WvO,but same as for disel.I save a pump by this and It never see WVo. Best
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TA DA!
While this site was down I got the speed up on the pesky critter. I know there are several threads that seems to die here after the solution it found and we have little to no idea what made it work.
So to report what all of you may have thought or read here this is what I finally ended up doing to get fuel out the check valves.
I bought another pump. Just kidding, I am so cheap I would never do that. This problem was solved by your great suggestions and my persistence that rebuilding this thing can not be that difficult. Just tedious.
So to summarize:
I had one IP that was running great but was leaking like a sieve so I tried replacing the seals. In doing that I broke the rotor and ordered another. After reassembly I had plenty of fuel racing around the pump and out the banjo to the tank. None coming out the injector ports. I adjusted all kinds of things and still no luck.
My son owned a rabbit and he sent me an IP that was sitting on his garage shelf for the last few years because it wouldn't allow him to run more than 50 MPH. And how many of us are satisfied doing that? Not my boy. Mister turbocharged Miata Man. He ran WVO in the car being cheaper than his old man and the pump was pretty nasty inside and out. I figured that I could use his rotor and base in the better pump and save some time in doing so. That allowed the car to idle but not accelerate.
So I decided to soak the rest of his pump and clean it up and put the whole thing in as a unit to see if I could get past 50 MPH. I ended up tearing it apart twice because the vanes were sticking and no pressure or fuel was being pumped out to the tank or being drawn from it either.
Once I got the power screw turned in a bit, the timing set right and the governor screw at the right place it ran fairly well. We have a couple long hills with passing lanes on them north of town and I tried getting the car to 60 up them. No Dice. So I pulled that spring in the front out of the first pump and swapped it in place of the one my son had it there. I had the silver he had the red. I dropped out one of the shims as well. Then I hillbilly tuned it, and took it out for a hill climb. And boy does it haul it now. I noticed the RPMs between shifts do not drop much and that is real smooth for the transition and that it seems to stay in the power band. If such a thing even exists for a 53 hp engine.
So my solution was kind of two fold. Replaced the pump and did some mods on it for getting it to go as it should.
Now for a couple of loose ends in the thread. I purchased a new rotor that I felt was wacked. I sent it back and was sent a brand new one that I hope to put in the original pump to see if it will work. Life is getting complicated right now so time for that will have to wait. But I think in all fairness to the eM.....com folks they did replace the part as they said they would.
I took pictures but I don't think they are needed at this point. The pump was never 180 degrees out of time. The key way always aligned with the little tab for the rotor pump inside. I think if I get the time to rebuild the pump I will be checking the way the governor is being struck by the push rod. I think it was keeping the whole thing choked down.
If I forgot any answers here speak up. Otherwise this thread is closed for awhile. If I get the second pump up and running I may hold on to it, mod it and potentially sell it. As in the last several weeks the car has now developed a leak at the front of the head as the corner bolt is broken. Next up drill and extract that bad nasty. Hope it is something I can get a pair of vice grips on and be done with it in a day. I hate drilling next to aluminum.
Thanks for all the help. I have over 300 miles on the first tank of fuel and am still looking at a little over a quarter of a tank left.
Later DAS ;D