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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: bugnut on August 13, 2010, 04:56:10 pm
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My T3 is too small, time for a bigger one. I can peg my pyro gauge right now with the T3 while boost is at 30psi. That is with water injection. Is there another bolt on or is it new exhaust manifold time with new turbo. The engine is a 1.9aaz/1.6 block with a Giles built pump. I am not thinking a vnt right now but maybe a HX35 from a dodge cummins. I know I will have to make a flapper vavle for the divided housing. What other turbos are a good candidate?
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HX35 is big, even when flaps are used. There is no bigger bolt-ons available. I'd try to find HX30, Scwitzer S1BG or something that size. Ofcourse it depends what power range you are looking.
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An HX35 is 3x too large for your engine.
The reason you can peg your pyrometer with 30PSI from the T3 is because the turbo is extremely inefficient at that pressure. Its actually flowing more air at 25psi than 30psi because of the difference in temperature!
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Why don't I see more guys running small ball-bearing turbos that are efficient and spool rapidly instead of thinking about turbos from trucks with 6L motors? I will be running a turbo which is too big for my application but it was free and has the correct flange.
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All ball bearing turbo's I've seen need coolant for cooling since oil flow is restricted because of the bearing design. It wouldn't be too much of a big deal to run coolant lines to it but this adds complexity to the swap. I personally love my vnt setup bolted up to an aaz exhaust manifold with the triangular flange. Pulls hard at 20-22 psi.
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Isn't the T3 too big for the 1.6 engine? Or does the gov. mod make it more reponsive quicker? I thought it would be more at home on the TDI?
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My Ko4/KO3 Hybrid works very well
Ceramic housings have reduced temp's
Gpopshop.com is the place for quality and a fair price...
17psi here, perfect
If speed is what you get a P car
I have 2008 997TT with 36psi/ 680 hp on the ecu ( flash )
Iam looking at the new 2011 GT2 RS
GB
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Looks like I will lower the boost down a little right now.
Gee-Bee, Do you know how much boost the hybrid can push out before it becomes hot air? My pump is setup to run 30psi of boost so I would like to keep this new turbo in that range.
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ask jerry, at Gpopshop.com
or there my be info at idiparts.com
GB
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HX35 is big, even when flaps are used. There is no bigger bolt-ons available. I'd try to find HX30, Scwitzer S1BG or something that size. Ofcourse it depends what power range you are looking.
Do you know which S1BG turbo to get. I found a source but there are like ten different models. They range in $600 to $1000. If you happen to know a model number that would be great. Do you know which cars they came on?
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Ok I have been looking around and I decided to go with a hx30. Now where is the heck do I find one. I looked high and low for an hx30 and it looks like no one sells one. I have been on ebay germany, uk and usa with no luck.
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I have 2008 997TT with 36psi/ 680 hp on the ecu ( flash )
Iam looking at the new 2011 GT2 RS
GB
Did gee-bee just say he has a 680 hp 997tt?
just so we're clear that is one of these... MY DREAM CAR
(http://awe-tuning.com/pages/gallery/awe_997tt/6sp/AWE_997tt_3.jpg)
DDDDDDDDRRRRREEEEEEEEAAAAMMMMMMM CARRRR!!!
I've always loved the 997!!!!!!!!!!
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If you want to spend a good amount of money you could try this:
http://www.streettoys2000.com/proddetail.php?prod=S%2FTWGTSuper17 (http://www.streettoys2000.com/proddetail.php?prod=S%2FTWGTSuper17)
He's had some issues with some of his early vnt hybrids though so there is a risk factor.
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That turbo is about 500 more than I want to spend. Who knows tho if I can't find a hx30 I might go that direction.
Now that 997 looks like it would be way too much fun. That car is a straight to jail ticket, do not pass go or collect $200.
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I have 2008 997TT with 36psi/ 680 hp on the ecu ( flash )
Iam looking at the new 2011 GT2 RS
GB
Did gee-bee just say he has a 680 hp 997tt?
just so we're clear that is one of these... MY DREAM CAR
(http://awe-tuning.com/pages/gallery/awe_997tt/6sp/AWE_997tt_3.jpg)
DDDDDDDDRRRRREEEEEEEEAAAAMMMMMMM CARRRR!!!
I've always loved the 997!!!!!!!!!!
I'm pretty sure his is white!!! I'm sure if you ask him nicely he will email you pictures ;)
bugnut I'm still rocking a K14 I have been eyeing the VNT-17/22 hybrid, but they are like $1800. I'm thinking maybe I should just find another hairdryer and compound them. It seems like that would be the cheapest way to reduce lag and make tons of boost. Since you can fabricate I bet twins would be even cheaper for you.
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It's a 2008 997Tt with dymag wheels
euro suspension
Tubi exhaust & headers , No cat's
6500.00 Mod
38k in Int option's
132K base
Wheel's were 11K
ECU to 680 hp 3500.00
2011 GT2 RS coming
GB
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I'm pretty sure his is white!!! I'm sure if you ask him nicely he will email you pictures ;)
bugnut I'm still rocking a K14 I have been eyeing the VNT-17/22 hybrid, but they are like $1800. I'm thinking maybe I should just find another hairdryer and compound them. It seems like that would be the cheapest way to reduce lag and make tons of boost. Since you can fabricate I bet twins would be even cheaper for you.
Jack,
I am going with the compound setup. I have a k14 on the way. Now I am just looking for the hx30. I emailed gpopshop if they had any and they said I need a part number off the hx30. I guess there are dozens of hx30's out there.
Which hx30 am I looking for? The one's off a cummins 4bt?
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It's a 2008 997Tt with dymag wheels
euro suspension
Tubi exhaust & headers , No cat's
6500.00 Mod
38k in Int option's
132K base
Wheel's were 11K
ECU to 680 hp 3500.00
2011 GT2 RS coming
GB
Gee-Bee,
I got to say that is one heck of a car. What are your plans for the GT2
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Jack,
I am going with the compound setup. I have a k14 on the way. Now I am just looking for the hx30. I emailed gpopshop if they had any and they said I need a part number off the hx30. I guess there are dozens of hx30's out there.
Which hx30 am I looking for? The one's off a cummins 4bt?
I'm sorry I must have missed that part. Maybe you can help me understand these systems better. I guess I'm curious as to why if you run the turbos sequentially why you couldn't make 30 psi with two K14's? If the LP one makes 8psi and the HP one multiplies that to the 30psi range. I am basing this on the understanding that the increase in boost is not the sum, but rather the product of the two turbos. To ask another way why do I usually see a large LP turbo on these setups? Please forgive my ignorance I don't have any experience with compound turbo engines and they are my latest fascination. I am trying to understand to decide if this it the route I should go.
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I am sure if you ran 2 k14's you can make 30psi but you will be hot. From my understanding of twin turbos is you are going for cooler egt's. the primary turbo makes boost quick and then the secondary will kick in later. Then the primary will be bypassed to a certain point and it will mostly be ran off the secondary in the top end. Just need to make sure to get a big enough gate on the primary turbo. The primary will always be making boost and the secondary will add to that and that is when the boost numbers start to climb. It's the pressure ratio thing going on.
I still have a lot more reading to do on twin setups. So far that is the jist of what I know. I am trying to lower my egt's down by using twins. I can use a larger single but then again there is the lag that I don't want. I just cooked my new engine buy running the egt's in the 1600+ range for a few short runs. Compression in cyl 1 went down to 330 while the others are at 370. Hopefully I just need new rings and not new pistons.
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I am basing this on the understanding that the increase in boost is not the sum, but rather the product of the two turbos.
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No. You roughly add them together (the sum) although the actual gauge boost pressure should be a little less still than the exact sum.
The reason you see a large low pressure compressor/turbine is because you want to extract the most work from the system (most boost) and the least cost (less exhaust pressure at the valves). If you compound 2 small turbos, you will surely be able to make plenty of boost, but you will see much greater exhaust pressure and hence high EGT's ant less power.
If you only have 1 small turbine and 1 large, the larger low pressure turbine imposes practically far less "restriction" in the exhaust flow and as such you get more boost at less "cost".
In practical terms, most people (with an old diesel IDI) don't want more than 12-15psi under 2500rpm anyway, so it doesn't matter if it takes until 3000rpm for the larger turbo to really get going. hence, you can use quite a large LP turbine and get maximum benefit.
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I am basing this on the understanding that the increase in boost is not the sum, but rather the product of the two turbos.
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No. You roughly add them together (the sum) although the actual gauge boost pressure should be a little less still than the exact sum.
The reason you see a large low pressure compressor/turbine is because you want to extract the most work from the system (most boost) and the least cost (less exhaust pressure at the valves). If you compound 2 small turbos, you will surely be able to make plenty of boost, but you will see much greater exhaust pressure and hence high EGT's ant less power.
If you only have 1 small turbine and 1 large, the larger low pressure turbine imposes practically far less "restriction" in the exhaust flow and as such you get more boost at less "cost".
In practical terms, most people (with an old diesel IDI) don't want more than 12-15psi under 2500rpm anyway, so it doesn't matter if it takes until 3000rpm for the larger turbo to really get going. hence, you can use quite a large LP turbine and get maximum benefit.
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Thanks for clearing that up. That all makes perfect sense. It also clarifies the nomenclature of hp and lp turbo a little I thought they were referring to boost rather than exhaust pressure. This also helps me understand why my K14 is causing such high egt's at higher rpm's. Learning this I assume the vanes on a VNT are accomplishing the same task of providing the more boost at lower "restriction" across a wider range as well. Not to threadjack, but what would be a good large LP turbo for me to run with the K14 to achieve 25-30 psi with this type of system? Instinct tells me the Holset that bugnut is going for would be overkill for my goals.
(http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu107/kaputtschlagen/opel_twinturbo.jpg)
I found this schematic. I think this illustrates the type of system we are talking about. I'm visual so this really helps me out.
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While compounding boost makes small boost differentials multiply into head twisting boost, don't forget that you still need to flow the same amount of air through both turbo's. Look where 25+lb/min (.156 m^3/s) of air sits on a K14 compressor map, regardless of pressure differential.
Now, take a look at the ambient pressure that the compressor map is done at. Usually just shy of 1bar. Obviously in the schematic above, your HP turbo's inlet isn't exactly 1bar.... I'm not sure exactly how that would affect the compressor map, so I just tend to not worry about that compressor map so much, as long as the turbo can push decent air through the engine on it's own. Just don't expect it to be multiplying the boost by a whole lot. What I've been doing is assuming that the LP turbo is going to be compounding around 3/4 of the final boost on it's own and having the full flow.
That compound schematic posted is basically the most common design, except that with a good wastegate (possibly internal wastegate + and external wastegate), the check valve and exhaust flap are unneeded. On the intake side, your HP turbo is there to spool up quick and just squish the air a bit further for those nice high boost pressures. Some compunds have been done with the HP first, then the LP on the intake side. That spools them up a bit quicker, but you risk overspeeding the HP turbo. A check valve might be a good idea if you're going that route
Right now, I'm tentatively looking for a K24 or K26 to compound with my K14, hoping for a reliable ~30psi on my AAZ
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I just ordered up my HX30. Should be here next week along with the k14. So far what I got planned out is to run two gates on the k14. The internal and put an external on it. The external gate is a 44mm version. So with bolth gates working I should be able to bypass the k14 when I am in the upper scale of the rpm range if I need to be. What I am thinking is to have both gates setup to dump at different pressures. Have the internal dump at 4 to 6 on the lp side and the external to dump at 20 on the hp side. That way I know after 20 I am pretty much bypassing the hp turbo and running on the lp to keep my egts in check. It sounds good right now, we'll see when tires hit the pavement. If the k14 is too small and still getting high egt I can always swap it out for the t3 I have on the car right now. I am shooting for max boost around 30 to 32psi.
All this should come together in about a month or so. Depends on how bad I messed the engine up the first go around.
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you should definatly start a build thread on this. I seen that your from hayden. I have a place in Coeur d alene. I'd like to come see what your doing next summer if thats alright
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you should definatly start a build thread on this. I seen that your from hayden. I have a place in Coeur d alene. I'd like to come see what your doing next summer if thats alright
Once I get the turbos I will start a build thread. Next time you are in town let me know. Hopefully I will have the engine running again by summer.
I see that andy2 had a thread going back in '05 about compound turbos but all the pictures don't work now.
I first need to figure out why my piston in cylinder 1 now sits .005" below the deck. I am thinking I bent the rod. Cylinder #4 is at .016 above deck.
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Anything new to report on this?
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I just got most of the parts in to start the build. The k14 just showed up about a week ago. Still waiting for some pipe and flanges then the fab work starts while I am waiting for the rods to show up. I'll have to take a picture of the hx30 next to the k14. From the looks of it the k14 is super small but we will see when the time comes around.
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A few pics of the build :)
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac309/bhollis321/rabbit/DSC_13811.jpg)
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac309/bhollis321/rabbit/DSC_13771.jpg)
and my new rods
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac309/bhollis321/rabbit/DSC_13581.jpg)
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac309/bhollis321/rabbit/DSC_13601.jpg)
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The hx35 is too big. nuff said. I have one on my table. It's too big even for a heavily ported, fueled up 1.9. Glad you went with the 30. VERY nice work. I'm envious.
How did you get involved with the diesel dubs? Usually people dont start insanity of this caliber until they've had a few years with the moderately sane debauchery that IS IDI VWs
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YES
I can't wait to find out what this does. I am still on the fence teetering between twin turbos or a decent sized hybrid VNT.
I think twins would definitely draw more attention at car shows. MKIV kids, and gasser kids wouldn't even notice a clever vane control setup on an IDI diesel ::), but they would certainly snap a pic or ten of that monster Holset and all that piping. I'm all for form follows function, but you have to admit it's twice as cool to double spool 8) 8)
Keep up the good work, and please keep posting pics. You are certainly braver than I am.
Cheers
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Wow, that looks awesome! I'll definitely be watching this..
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looks awesome, great work, i am curious how the k14 will do, and how the hx30 will do its a turbo i've been wanting to run for a while
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Thanks for the compliments on the build. I know the welds look like crap but hey, we all have to start at some time or another.
The hx35 is too big. nuff said. I have one on my table. It's too big even for a heavily ported, fueled up 1.9. Glad you went with the 30. VERY nice work. I'm envious.
How did you get involved with the diesel dubs? Usually people dont start insanity of this caliber until they've had a few years with the moderately sane debauchery that IS IDI VWs
This hx30 is still big. There is no way I could fit that 35 in the rabbit. right now I had to tilt the hx30 to clear my shifter and some of the frame. I might end up cutting some of the frame for the air inlet. If I do I will box it up and make it stronger than factory.
As for diesel and performance I can't leave anything stock. It all started with a few mods here and there and now look at it. I have done the same with my dodge diesel's. I had my 02 at 550hp and my 93 has the pump mods while the 07 just has a dpf delete, it has plenty of power for now. What really got me started was my vw ghia and bug. The aircooled engines are so nice to work on. Want a bigger bore, no problem buy some new jugs and there you have it. I am alsot working on my bug right now. The engine is now a 2387 fuel injection turbo monster. Should be in the 400hp mark.
looks awesome, great work, i am curious how the k14 will do, and how the hx30 will do its a turbo i've been wanting to run for a while
I am wondering too how this k14 will do. I do have a 45mm gate I am adding to this build. That should take care of the k14 not over spooling before the hx30 kicks in. I guess we'll see when the tires hit the road. ;)
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My T3 is too small, time for a bigger one. I can peg my pyro gauge right now with the T3 while boost is at 30psi. That is with water injection.
Do you have an intercooler? This happened to me also very quickly. I added an intercooler and limited the t3 to 18 pounds. much lower egts and more torque. lower top end though but that may be due to other changes too like timing and what not.
the t3 will start to work against you once you go past it's efficiency range. Keep this in mind with your twin set up now but your numbers look dead on! i'm stoked to see that all working together.
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I do have it intercooled. I tried turning the boost down to 25psi and it was still way to hot and a lot of black smoke. So I figured I needed more air to burn the fuel. This hx30 should do the job while the k14 will help with the low end. I would have done more testing on pressure but that is when I bent the rod. I am thinking what bent the rod was 3 things. My water injection, i just changed to a larger jet. I bumped the timing up and hear it ratting on the top end and the intake design. I think all the water was being put into #1 cylinder. That is the rod that got bent. So I am going to make a new intake plenum.
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i am concerned about that too. I did read that you can have up to 15* tilt from perpendicular. A rough look at the hx30 it is in the ballpark of 13*. I need to get my level on it, I just put a protractor on it real quick.
Every spot I put the turbo it would hit something that is untill I tilted it. Then it would clear the shifter and I can get a hose on for the intake.
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There are lots of OEM applications where the turbo is tilted like that. The TD Isuzu p'up had a turbo tilted like that. And lots of turbo jimmies in trucks have them leaning like that to fit the monster turbos under the hood.
I would not worry until it actually leaks. My money is on it running without issue.
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Yes, logically, if you have 50+psi of oil pressure in the bearing housing, whether the thing is tilted forwards or back with respect to gravity likely wont make any difference while its running. Its likely fairly important that on shutdown most of the oil can drain our of the housing (eventually), or it will seep past the seal on one side.
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i wouldn't worry about the tilting, i have seen some titled much further, there was a guy on vortex with a stock long block aba in a rabbit making 380whp on ethanol his turbo was really slanted i think he said you could go 30 degrees, that sounds like alot tho haha
what i really wonder tho is if the k14 will end up being a bottle neck more than a torque maker, and if you'd be better off with the hx30 by it self, time will tell
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http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4829923-The-super-slappy-attack-rabbit.&highlight=400whp
heres the thread i was talking about, its quite odd to see a stock 8v make that much power damn
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That was a good read on that build up. That turbo has way more tilt than I got and looks like it worked. Looks like I can give it a try. As for the k14 being a bottle neck I would say it sure does look like it. I hope it's not but time will tell. If it is I will try swaping out the k14 for the t3 and see what that does. I am almost done with the rest of the porting. Just have a little more on the exhaust to do. After that I will get the valve ground put the head back together. Once I get this thing running there will be snow on the ground.
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My guess is as long as the drain is lower than the seal it will probably be fine.
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The shaft seals are not under any oil pressure at all. The oil is fed to the bearings and once it leaks around the bearings it is under zero pressure. The seals are on the zero pressure side and if under any pressure (e.g. poor drainage) will leak profusely. If oil pools enough to reach the shaft seals even if it is not under any pressure other than gravity, they will also leak quite well. That angle may not be enough to do so. As I said, just a curiosity.
quite right, whoopsy.
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hillfolk told me a friend of his tried compounding a 1.6 t3 with a merc t3 and that the boost came on very very fast. i really wonder how the holset would do on its own
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hillfolk told me a friend of his tried compounding a 1.6 t3 with a merc t3 and that the boost came on very very fast. i really wonder how the holset would do on its own
prolly very very laggy.. a holset is still huge to a 1.6, no matter what..
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Yes, i looked into using the larger holset HX35 and I still have it but i found some builds where it failed miserably. Very disappointing. And he was fueling it like a mofo! saw something like 4psi before it was reving way too high.
I am surprised, bugnut, that you are sticking with the smaller 1600cc block. I think the 1600cc block with the 1900cc head would make a really fun NA because of the good flow of the head. (having had the 1.9/1.6td and now a full 1.9aaz)
the 1.9 block is much sturdier. bigger rods and pistons. If you have access to a 1.9 bottom end it would be interesting, as i saw, for you to see the difference between the half breed and a full 1.9.
I feel like the full 1.9 makes much more torque but the half breed reved really really fast.
the 1.9 in neutral revs like a car where as the 1.6 bottom end with the 1.9 head on it reminded me of a weird sounding motorcycle. it revs QUICK and i was able to see about 3 pounds just reving it and thats with the T3.
I'm also starting to feel that the T3 is too small now as you did (plus mine is very old a dying slowly). My friend has a couple brand new JDM turbos from the WRX STI's im going to look into the flow charts on and see if they would be suitable. I would have to buy two so if they turn out to be a good match i'll let you know and maybe you'd want to replace the T3/k14 or what ever you go with with one.
Just a little add-on here;
These pumps and injectors will always supply an ample amount of diesel creating a black cloud. You should always make a cloud with and IDI unless you're running like a 175 shot of nitrous at it. ok maybe 175 is a bit big but you know what i mean :P
black isn't bad.
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I thought about the 1.9 vs the 1.6 block. After some looking I should have went with the 1.9 route. I know more power can be made with that then the 1.6. You can't beat displacement! But I do like how it revs.
As for the turbo choices i will wait and see how this k14/hx30 works out. I hope it is the right ticket. If not I might just call it good for now as I have my bug project to work on. This rabbit is just going to be my daily driver for awhile.
An update on the build. I have sent the head and pistons to the ceramic coater. Should see those back in 2 weeks. Right now I am working on the wastegate setup for the k14. I cut off the old wastegate and will be brazing on the new setup. I will have to post up pics a little later.
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hillfolk told me a friend of his tried compounding a 1.6 t3 with a merc t3 and that the boost came on very very fast. i really wonder how the holset would do on its own
prolly very very laggy.. a holset is still huge to a 1.6, no matter what..
I would have to agree. The holset by itself would be a pig. Got to remember this turbo is factory for a cummins 4bt which is 3.9 liters. Now you put that on a 1.6 and you might as well have a NA engine.
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Got the wastegate done. Now i just need to paint and wrap the exhaust.
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac309/bhollis321/rabbit/DSC_14211.jpg)
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac309/bhollis321/rabbit/DSC_14271.jpg)
(http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac309/bhollis321/rabbit/DSC_14191.jpg)
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Got the setup running, all I can say is WOW. This is fun. Only have a few test miles on it but so far EGT's are only 1000 F. Boost is 30 to 32psi. I still have to tune both turbos. Right now the HP pump is gated at 7psi from the LP. The LP is set to open at 24psi. I don't have my boost gauge hooked up on the intermediate pipe yet to see if it is putting out 24psi. Before when I was running the k24 the max pressure was around 30 and the egts were well past 1600F. I couldn't even use all the fuel this Giles pump had. Now I have the foot to the floor going 85mph and still have cool temps.
Right now I still have to fix a fuel leak. I cant seem to fix the leak where the bolt goes into the pump for when you time it. I got fuel dribbling out of it. I tried to anneal the copper washer that helped but still leaks. Will try a new one tonight.
As for the transmission this 4t work pretty good. I don't even need 5th gear. Kinda wish I had a 3.88 ring and pinion in it rather than this 3.64.
Still have a lot of testing to do before I am real happy :) More to come as a get more miles on it.
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Where did you get a 4T?
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I got it off of ebay a few years back. Tore it down and put in the wavetrak. Only found one bad syncro and put some new bearings in it. Works good now. Had to change out the mounting and shift linkage. I had a donor car that I stole all the shift linkage and mounting bracket.
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US Ebay? Thats a pretty hard to get tranny over here ;) I had to have mine shipped attached to a car :P
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Got any pics of the complete set-up? Compounds make me giddy. :D