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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ventureforth on July 17, 2010, 07:46:03 pm
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I have an '82 1.6NA that I want to get a little more power out of. Following the suggestions in the FAQ and plan on sending a pump to Giles. I have two spare pumps in great condition, one from an '96 AAZ and one from an '81 1.6NA. Is there any advantage to sending the turbo pump to Giles to use on my NA if I have no intention of turbo-ing it in the near of foreseeable future or adding nitrous or anything like that?
My plans are to do the 8V manifold upgrade, freer flowing exhaust, bigger piping on air-intake, and all the basic maintenance (i.e. new nozzles or injectors)...and the Giles pump, of course.
Thanks.
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No realistic gain on using TD pump - especially if not Tbo'ing.
The TD pump adds extra fueling when boost calls for it.
Without boost, it would be like an NA pump in functions.
The 1.9 pump does deliver a little more fueling, but a Super Uber
Rebuild by Giles on the 81 or 82 NA pump will put you at the top of the chart for your application.
And a TD pump is an extra 150-200 on the finished invoice.
Spend that on the exhaust instead.
Good plans you have, will be a completely different car to drive afterwards.
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I'm assuming there's not really much need for an EGT gauge considering the nominal power mods I'm doing. I have the triple VDO cluster from a Cabby (volts, bar, oil temp). I was thinking I would replace one of them with EGT, or add EGT as fourth in the useless cubby hole below the radio, but now I'm thinking it's overkill.
Thoughts? Is there even really a need for the triple gauges? I like the idea of at least having oil temp (always a good number to know).
How about head bolts/studs? With the aforementioned mods, are ARPs necessary or am I good with what I have? I believe I have the 12mm, though I know some of the '82s had 11mm. When I replace the valve cover gasket tomorrow I'll double check. 11m are hex and 12mm are star pattern, right? Are 12mm okay for my application?
Thanks, as always, to these forums for the patient help.
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How much is the Giles pump rebuild??
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NA is 750 cad TD is 950 CAD unless you are going over 20 psi (I think)
I don't think a NA needs head studs.
An EGT gauge would also be more of a novelty in my opinion. If it's smoking black you know you need to let off a bit.
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750 is what I was quoted for the NA. Don't know about the other flavors.
Agreed on the EGT. How about the other gauges. Is anything really worthwhile aside from oil temp?
So what's the most ideal donor for the upgraded exhaust manifold? Early gasser, later diesel? What should I be looking for?
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Volts and water temp are the others that I would run.
Either get a GTI 8V 4:2:1 exhaust manifold and downpipe or just use your stock manifold but cut the bowl on the downpiep to fit a 2.xx" pipe. The manifold is a pretty good design, it's just the downpipe that sucks.
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I agree, EGT and HeadStuds would be way overkill on NoN-Turbo 12mm engine. An 11mm engine - i'd want the headstuds.
I'd do the triple gauge set - but you need another oil press sending unit for the gauge to work (or the one from that car).
I would put it on the butt end of the head - where lowest pressure reading would occur. Might need a T - if keeping stock cluster warnings intact - and use both senders.
Oil temp - idunno how or where they set up for that sender.
I would guess to put it on the oil filter housing where the high press oil sender is. Maybe T it in with existing sender also ?
Just throwing it all out there in case it helps.
You could also use the oil temp gauge as a water temp gauge.
It won't know the difference.
12mm on CR code 82 engine is a roll of the dice.
Like you mention, check headbolt pattern. But its not definitive due to alternatives that could have taken place in past. 12 point - triplesquare is what you'll hope for.
Also check crank bolt, whether 17mm fits - or 19mm fits.
If it's 19mm - its almost definitely 12mm.
If it's 17mm - its still possible a 12mm.
(Cranks will interchange - and it happens)
Also check on backside (firewall side) of block.
If it says 16D - more than likely 11mm
If it says 1.6D - more than likely 12mm
As you can see, its not 100% known until a headbolt comes out and is measured on these CR's. They were a running change during production.
I have an 82 CR 12mm engine.
Tripsquare headbolts / 19mm crankbolt / 1.6D on backside
It was cast in Brazil (?).
Giles musta went up 100 in the past year or so.
It was bound to happen sooner or later.
And exchange rate is almost even money right now too.
Or it was last week, anyhow. ::)
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Your exhaust manifold will need to come from a 1984 or older Mk1 series. You don't want Mk2 series 1985-newer.
The Mk2 series is diff where downpipe makes the exit.
Complicates the shifter linkage extremely when used on Mk1.
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my buddy has an ABA manifold on his rabbit pickup? it worked just fine? didnt hit anything? ???
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RoR, idunno what he's up to or what else he might have did.
There are some mods that can help with shift links.
But
I've got mk2 TD exhman/downpipe on my Truck via previous owner.
Relay shaft arm hits downpipe in 2nd and 4th - its worn a groove into the arm and still clinks a little.
The relay shaft bushings and relay ball assembly etc... are right next to exhaust pipe. The bushings were cooked and will probly need another set replaced before long.
I gotta mk1 Dpipe to replace with sometime sooner or later.
Maybe ABA exh man is a good / perfect upgrade.
I'm done at 1992 on VW stuff.
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My truck is 1981 with 5 spd if that makes any matter on it.
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Ventureforth, i think we all are taking for granted you are using a 1982 Rabbit/Jetta/Truck body.
Just to clarify - What type of body and what speed tranny are you using ?
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you have to use a mk1 special downpipe tho..
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I'm assuming there's not really much need for an EGT gauge considering the nominal power mods I'm doing. I have the triple VDO cluster from a Cabby (volts, bar, oil temp). I was thinking I would replace one of them with EGT, or add EGT as fourth in the useless cubby hole below the radio, but now I'm thinking it's overkill.
EGT is the best gauge to have when everything is working, it helps you pick the best gear and speed.
Thoughts? Is there even really a need for the triple gauges? I like the idea of at least having oil temp (always a good number to know).
A diesel without a volt gauge is a stranded event waiting to happen. The others won't hurt anything.
How about head bolts/studs? With the aforementioned mods, are ARPs necessary or am I good with what I have? I believe I have the 12mm, though I know some of the '82s had 11mm. When I replace the valve cover gasket tomorrow I'll double check. 11m are hex and 12mm are star pattern, right? Are 12mm okay for my application?
If your HG comes off twice, studs cost less than stretch bolts. it will fail, but i8f it aint broke, don't fix it yet.
Thanks, as always, to these forums for the patient help.
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To clarify, I have an '82 mk1 rabbit 2-door with a 4-spd. However, swapping in a 5-spd is on the agenda very soon. I do a lot of highway driving at 75mph. Out here in socal that barely keeps up with the flow of traffic. Though 4 is awesome around town, it just won't cut it for my daily hour-long each way freeway commute.
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Also, to clarify, if I'm going to have a shop do a custom 2.xx downpipe and performance muffler, is it not necessary to do the gti manifold?
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check the code on your tranny, it might be just as good (or better) then a 5 speed.
You can use your stock diesel manifold with a modified downpipe for more power.
Actually, being a 82 you might have a 4:2:1 exhaust manifold on there already.
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What tranny would I be looking for in my rabbit that would be better than a 5-speed? Or what 5 spd with a .75-ish 5th gear would not be better to have than my current 4-spd? I'm not being sarcastic, i'd very much like to know.
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If you check out www.scirocco.org/gears (http://www.scirocco.org/gears) and use the calculator you'll find that the 4A and GP 4 speeds are basically just as good if not better then most of the 5 speeds.
It's one less shift to worry about but it also one less choice of cruising RPM below highway speeds. 3rd gear on the 4 speeds seems to be very good for around town though.
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The tranny code is stamped on the bottom of the bellhousing.
If you jack car up - roll under it - look strait up at large round bell section of tranny nearest the engine - there it is.
Will read like 01455 GC, 10345 GP, etc...
IF you still have the factory 4spd shift knob - the "good" 4speeds in 82 came with 1-2-3-E (economy) (known as 3+E).
The crappys came with 1-2-3-4.
Both had an R, also.
To run 75mph with the low geared 4spd, you'd more than likely be holding it to the floor and buzzing like a bumble bee.
Do a search on the exhaust spring tool.
You can make one, or buy one, but your exhaust guy will hate you forever if you don't supply one. Maybe he will have one - but most do not. Inquire with your chosen shop. It takes a special VW/Audi tool.
The standard / non-4:2:1 manifold looks like a toilet bowl where it meets the exhaust headpipe. Its known as a toilet bowl manifold, because of the look it has. You'll be able to tell which you have.
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Still have to check out my tranny code, but it looks like none of the 5 spds. are any better or, in most cases, as good as the 4 spds. except in the case of the GC, which would be a .91 5th gear. All of the other 4 spds. have .71 or .70 5th. Let's just hope I don't have a GC, I guess.
To respond to the shift knob question, the PO (I've only had the Rabbit for a few months) must have put a custom knob on (or ordered one in custom trim package or something from the dealer when she bought it) because it was a cone-shaped knob with a flat top and no markings.
Another question: I have a small but decent intercooler that I took off a 1986 Jeep Cherokee TD. Any benefit to piping that up to this modest 1.6 NA? I already have 3" tubing running from the air box to the front grill to get more cold air into the system. Still using the stock paper panel filter. Have thought about doing a cone filter. Is the modded intake enough, or would the small IC add any significant benefit?
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Still have to check out my tranny code, but it looks like none of the 5 spds. are any better or, in most cases, as good as the 4 spds. except in the case of the GC, which would be a .91 5th gear. All of the other 4 spds. have .71 or .70 5th. Let's just hope I don't have a GC, I guess.
To respond to the shift knob question, the PO (I've only had the Rabbit for a few months) must have put a custom knob on (or ordered one in custom trim package or something from the dealer when she bought it) because it was a cone-shaped knob with a flat top and no markings.
Another question: I have a small but decent intercooler that I took off a 1986 Jeep Cherokee TD. Any benefit to piping that up to this modest 1.6 NA? I already have 3" tubing running from the air box to the front grill to get more cold air into the system. Still using the stock paper panel filter. Have thought about doing a cone filter. Is the modded intake enough, or would the small IC add any significant benefit?
an intercooler is a big restriction if it doesnt have boost hooked to it.. why do you need a charge cooler for already cool air? an intercooler is to remove the heat from compressing the air in the turbo..
i bet you would suffer a PERFORMANCE LOSS if you hooked up the intercooler to a n/a diesel.
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...as good as the 4 spds. except in the case of the GC, which would be a .91 5th gear. All of the other 4 spds. have .71 or .70 5th. Let's just hope I don't have a GC, I guess.
Since i'm waiting for the rain to stop outside - i'm gonna mess with you a little here ... lol sorry
The 4speeds don't have a 5th gear.
We call those 5speeds
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Ha! Yes, that would be correct. 4 speeds have four gears. ::) Going on very little sleep here. Guess I had 5th on the brain. At any rate, it looks like the 4th gear on most of the 4 spds. is about as tall as it gets. Here's hoping I have a 3+E.
Gotcha on the IC. I had a feeling there was something about it that didn't quite make sense. Still a noob here.
This Rabbit will be my first foray into doing anything more than the most basic maintenance on a car. I've owned modern Golfs up until now, and wouldn't ever dream of dealing with the ECU and other high-tech engineering that goes along with them. Mechanical doesn't scare me, but electronics and computer controlled machines are another story (at least where automobiles are concerned). Which is funny, because by trade I am a motion picture editor and deal with computers and electronics all the time. I guess it's just different when that computerized machine is barreling down the highway at 75mph and my life is in its hands. For that scenario, I'll leave it in the hands of the pros.
Oh, and I do have the toilet bowl. So, just to get final clarification, is there any benefit to using the GTI manifold instead of the stock toilet bowl if it's going to be modified for a custom 2.xx" downpipe? Also, any significant benefit to going 2.5" over 2.25" in this application. I have heard some comment that 2.5" is overkill for the NA and anything over 2.25" is pretty much a case of diminishing returns.
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I knew you just typed that faster than you were thinking on the 4-5 speed deal. lol
A lot of guys upgrade from toilet bowl to 4-2-1.
It must be pretty beneficial overall.
But to flip the coin - they usually have easy access to one.
I don't know how much they sale for on the open market.
If it wasn't very expensive with shipping in mind, i'd go for it.
You're pretty much going top of the line and cream of the crop on everything else on NA upgrades - i'd say test the market and find the cost of 4-2-1.
I'm not familiar with them - but thinking they go 4-2 on the manifold - then you have to have another special pipe to go 2-1.
Check into it and get the scoop on it all.
I'd go with 2.25 exhaust with thick walled heavy gauge pipe.
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Oh, and I do have the toilet bowl. So, just to get final clarification, is there any benefit to using the GTI manifold instead of the stock toilet bowl if it's going to be modified for a custom 2.xx" downpipe? Also, any significant benefit to going 2.5" over 2.25" in this application. I have heard some comment that 2.5" is overkill for the NA and anything over 2.25" is pretty much a case of diminishing returns.
On a NA any bigger than 2.25" will pretty much only add noise. Mine is 2.5" and it's louder than I like with two mufflers.
I'm not familiar with them - but thinking they go 4-2 on the manifold - then you have to have another special pipe to go 2-1.
Check into it and get the scoop on it all.
I'd go with 2.25 exhaust with thick walled heavy gauge pipe.
Yup and yup.
What some of us have done is use the toilet manifold and cut the toilet off the stock downpipe and weld it to the downpipe of your choice, having looked at both styles of manifolds I like the toilet style better. The restricion appears to be where the "bowl" narrrows down to the stock 1.5" pipe, widening it to 2.25" fixes that.
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Forgot to add this: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24927.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24927.0)
Down towards the bottom is a good method of getting the spring clamps off.
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2.25" it is, then. Anyone have praise or horror stories to tell about some of the notable performance muffler manufacturers (magnaflow, dynaflow, etc.)? Any use doing a catback?
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2.25" it is, then. Anyone have praise or horror stories to tell about some of the notable performance muffler manufacturers (magnaflow, dynaflow, etc.)? Any use doing a catback?
I've got a Thrush welded muffler, I don't like the idea of using a "insulation" packed muffler on a car that'll fill it with soot right away.
Mine is PN. 17650, (so you can compare sizes) and at 9.5" wide it barely fits between the spare tire well and lower shock mount, with mine it misses the tire well by an inch max and actually bumps the shock mount some.
Someone else can chime in on the other brands ;D.
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Any point to adding an oil cooler? Or is that, once again, overkill for a 1.6NA?
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Any point to adding an oil cooler? Or is that, once again, overkill for a 1.6NA?
I don't know what temps you get where you live but it sure can't hurt anything.
Here's a good one, http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25435.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25435.0)
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That's exactly the one I was looking at. That site has been a great resource.
Also need to upgrade alternator to one with "w" terminal if I end up running a tach. Performance-cafe has them in 75amp and 90amp flavors. With no a/c, should I just stick to 75amp?
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i would go with the 90 unless its significantly more coin. the 90 amp is the one that came in a/c equipped cars anyway..
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I don't know what temps you get where you live but it sure can't hurt anything.
If it's not thermostatically controlled then I would beg to differ. It will increase engine warm up times which will increase engine wear if it is not controlled.
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i DO NOT run an oil cooler.. and it still takes FOR DAYS to warm my diesel up..
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So oil cooler is overkill for NA, too. Understood. Still navigating these performance mods as most of the info is for hyper-tuning a td or franken-build and not all of it pertains to the NA. But some of it does, for sure, such as opening up the exhaust.
Here's a question: what would be considered overspending on said 2.25" exhaust system? In other words, what should I be willing to pay to have the shop do the work? Never done this sort of custom work. I'm willing to pay what's fair, even if it's not cheap. Fair is fair. Just don't want to get swindled.
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It all depends on what you want? Full custom exhaust and downpipe? I would go 2.5" but thats just me. To give you a ballpark figure I got a downpipe with flex and side exit turndown, all 3" built and installed for 300. It seems thats a steal so anywhere between 300 and 450 is reasonable. Prob more for stainless
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So oil cooler is overkill for NA, too. Understood. Still navigating these performance mods as most of the info is for hyper-tuning a td or franken-build and not all of it pertains to the NA. But some of it does, for sure, such as opening up the exhaust.
Here's a question: what would be considered overspending on said 2.25" exhaust system? In other words, what should I be willing to pay to have the shop do the work? Never done this sort of custom work. I'm willing to pay what's fair, even if it's not cheap. Fair is fair. Just don't want to get swindled.
you build a n/a the exact same way, you just take boost out of the equation. think nitrous.. ;)
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Around here $300 installed is usually considered a good price. You may want to consider buying mandrel bends and bringing them to the shop to have them install instead of the crappy crimp bends they will likely offer.
I would say an oil cooler is a good idea if you live in a mountainous area or plan to make long drives (5+ hours) or if you travel in the desert. Even swapping in a stock heat exchanger (commonly called an oil cooler) would be good. However dollar for dollar a true oil cooler might be cheaper. The stock heat exchanger does offer the benefit of faster warm up times.
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$300 - $500 sounds pretty reasonable, actually.
So, update on the manifold situation. I have a 4:2:1 now...and it was free. But it came off a pretty rusty rabbit. At any rate, from what has been said so far, there really is no point to using it since modding the toilet bowl to accept a 2.25" or 2.5" downpipe is just as good (or better) than doing the 4:2:1. Correct?
rabbitman -- why do you like the toilet bowl better? Can you explain?
I also found a 2" exhaust with a bosal tip off an '84 16V GTI that I can get for real cheap. Would that hook right up to the 8V 4:2:1 manifold and, if so, would the 2" give a decent power boost or is it really really worth it to go up to the 2.25" for some extra coin?
Thanks again.
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I would just use what is cheap. The difference between 2 and 2.25 is not going to be noticeable IMO
As long as the exhaust is not built for use with a cat it may bolt up. You might need to find the proper flange though
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I think it is built for a cat. Oh, well.
This should probably go in the non-engine section, but since this thread is on a roll and you've all been so helpful, I thought I'd just continue on with it.
Thinking about stress bars to improve handling. On the suspension/wheel side, I've already installed "high-performance" Sachs/Boge struts/springs from partsplaceinc. BIG improvement, though the old ones were pretty much toast. Went up from the stock 13" to 185/60R14. Right now it has some Potenzas, but they are nearing the end of their useful life so I'll get some nice tires on there soon enough. Anyway, have any of you fooled around with stress bars front or rear or both? Performance-cafe has some for the MK1
2pt. Lower
http://www.performance-cafe.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_195&products_id=450 (http://www.performance-cafe.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_195&products_id=450)
4pt. Lower
http://www.performance-cafe.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_195&products_id=451 (http://www.performance-cafe.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_195&products_id=451)
Rear
http://www.performance-cafe.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_195&products_id=452 (http://www.performance-cafe.com/product_info.php?cPath=8_195&products_id=452)
I do haul a lot of gear, so am concerned that the rear bar will limit the cargo capacity of my Rabbit. But they say over 90% of the cargo space is retained, so maybe not. As for front, since top speed is not going to be too high on this bunny and I'm not gonna race it, I'm assuming 2pt. is fine and 4pt. is overkill. Is it all overkill, though? Like I said, it's not for racing, but to improve the grin factor when taking on windy roads up North and so on.
Thoughts?
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$300 - $500 sounds pretty reasonable, actually.
So, update on the manifold situation. I have a 4:2:1 now...and it was free. But it came off a pretty rusty rabbit. At any rate, from what has been said so far, there really is no point to using it since modding the toilet bowl to accept a 2.25" or 2.5" downpipe is just as good (or better) than doing the 4:2:1. Correct?
rabbitman -- why do you like the toilet bowl better? Can you explain?
I also found a 2" exhaust with a bosal tip off an '84 16V GTI that I can get for real cheap. Would that hook right up to the 8V 4:2:1 manifold and, if so, would the 2" give a decent power boost or is it really really worth it to go up to the 2.25" for some extra coin?
Thanks again.
16V's have a different exhaust mani so it might take some modding to make it hook up.
The advantages of the toilet are, no need for a flex pipe and less bolts to rust. If you use a exhaust clamp to open those annoying C springs it's pretty easy to unhook it.
I don't know if it flows as good or better but it might not be as "tuned" as the 4-2-1.
Also the 4-2-1 has a lot more length/weight hanging off the block and so more chance of crackage while the toilet is rather short. With that said I don't know of anyone who's had one crack ::).
If you can get the cheap 2" setup and it hooks to the 4-2-1 then I'd go that route.I don't know what temps you get where you live but it sure can't hurt anything.
If it's not thermostatically controlled then I would beg to differ. It will increase engine warm up times which will increase engine wear if it is not controlled.
Thanks, I forgot to clarify ;)
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http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/pts/1858165191.html (http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/pts/1858165191.html)
If I have the 4-2-1 style exhaust manifold, what will I need to do to be able to use the above 2" exhaust off an '84 gasser? And would you recommend the above?
Thanks again!
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I'm just a canuk so take this with a grain of salt, but in my case with the money it sounds like you are going to spend I'd be looking for a turbo or a turbo add on (even stock that bolts on). I live in a small city in Canada and the turbo is much, much quicker than my NA and much nicer to have in the busy city! To each his own.
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UPDATE
So, I bought a MK1 GTI exhaust for $50 off some kid. It had 2" piping, a DynaMax muffler, and very nice Bosal tip. All in pretty good shape. My exhaust shop opened up the toilet bowl manifold and fit a custom 2" downpipe and connecting pipe to mate to the new exhaust for $150. Result? I couldn't be happier. Not only is there noticeable seat-o-pants improvement in power, but the exhaust note is spectacular. It's very smooth but still a little bit racey...like an opera singer playing with hotwheels. Off the line power has improved, of course, but most noticeable and welcome is top-end power while cruising on the freeway. I can accelerate in 5th (.71 FN tranny) like nothing I could do before, and I have to be careful not to go beyond 80mph (which is now easy to do if I'm not paying attention).
So, thanks for all the advice! The upgrade was well worth it.