VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Upgrades (non engine related ) => Topic started by: climbinghalfdome on July 03, 2010, 03:09:51 pm
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So I'm surfing the web on a Saturday and found this little gem.
They take the pressure from your oil pump to spin a centrifuge to which the same motor oil is added. They claim it filters below one micron where regular oil filters only go to 25.
Wheres the page.
http://www.dieselcraft.com/EngineOilCleaningOC25.php (http://www.dieselcraft.com/EngineOilCleaningOC25.php)
What do you guys think? I'm not a tree hugging kind of guy, but I just spent $14 on one oil filter. Maybe this thing will keep more filters out of the dump, more bread in my pocket, and more life in my VW.
Is anyone running one of these things already?
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Sounds like a good idea. How much does it cost?
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Sounds like a good idea. How much does it cost?
100 oil filters ($599)
The extra engine protection may well be worth it though.
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100 oil filters for me is 1400 bucks..
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100 oil filters will be about a half million miles worth. The Glacier Metal Co. had something similar in my BP diesel engine book, from 1964. So the idea has been around for a while.
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100 oil filters for me is 1400 bucks..
What kind of filters do you run?
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wix. a gasser vw filter is 8 bucks, a diesel filter is 14 bucks. locally atleast.
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I always add a few to my autohausaz or other orders and have them on hand. I bought one at the dealer a while ago for almost $20.
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wix. a gasser vw filter is 8 bucks, a diesel filter is 14 bucks. locally atleast.
I think I pay about 8-9 bucks for napa gold.
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Sounds like a good idea. How much does it cost?
100 oil filters ($599)
The extra engine protection may well be worth it though.
Am I right in thinking that there are only so many engines out there and none of them are getting any younger? At some point the junk yards on our planet will run out of good engines from wrecked jetta's, golfs, and rabbits. (My 1.6 from a 1986 golf in Germany.) The extra engine protection maybe well worth the sticker price. Isn't that why we buy magnetic drain plugs?
I guess if you look at a car payment being $300, and if this extends the life of your existing engine by two months, it will have paid for its self. The problem is there is no way to measure the added longevity this centrifuge would add.
Does anyone already have one of these?
I found these thinking I could use it to filter WVO down to < 1 micron, but they have others that will do that, not on board the VW.
Kevin
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Am I right in thinking that there are only so many engines out there and none of them are getting any younger? At some point the junk yards on our planet will run out of good engines from wrecked jetta's, golfs, and rabbits. (My 1.6 from a 1986 golf in Germany.) The extra engine protection maybe well worth the sticker price. Isn't that why we buy magnetic drain plugs?
I guess if you look at a car payment being $300, and if this extends the life of your existing engine by two months, it will have paid for its self.
I'm sure there are production figures somewhere that will probably astound but basically no, we won't run out of engines for a long time.
And $300 for a new car payment? Unless you have a lot down or are buying a hyundai it's going to be significantly greater, that said you need to calculate maintenance costs, resale value into your equation and depending on your situation you may factor in things like safety and the ability to hear a passenger at 75 over the engine noise and decide a new car is right for you. I recently got rid of my old bmw and bought a 2010 wrx and I daily drive my 1981 caddy.
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And $300 for a new car payment? Unless you have a lot down or are buying a hyundai it's going to be significantly greater,
The Hyundai Accent we had was 243 a month hahaha Now our new 2010 Golf City is onlye 330 a month.
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I guess how many months you're financing for probably can have a large impact as well. In any case do you really need an excuse to spend $600 on an oil filtration system? Just get it and do a write up on the installation already!
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Stuff like that is neat, and as was mentioned not a new idea. I'd be more apt to want to use that on really really expensive stuff. Also, the motors just don't wear from dirty oil if you change the filter with a quality one and use decent oil. I have never seen bearing wear, which is what dirty oil get's you, on these things. The rest of the wear they exhibit isn't really un-clean oil related, if it was we'd all be putting new filters on every other week by now. :)
That being said overkill is consistently more fun.
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It's funny, we get into the same type of discussions at work about dirty oil. We've never seen a warranty failure directly attributable to dirty oil, and we know some of our customers don't change the oil at our recommended intervals, some don't use the recommended oils, etc. I was always told dirty oil is better than no oil which I have personally proved the hard way.
FWIW MTU uses centrifugal filters on their new V16 2000 series engine but as an addition to standard type filters as opposed to 100% replacement. I don't know the filtration specs on what they use.
Regarding engine supply, the local junkyards have started crushing MK1 and 2 VW's instead of keeping them around. This will very quickly affect engine block availability locally.
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Regarding engine supply, the local junkyards have started crushing MK1 and 2 VW's instead of keeping them around. This will very quickly affect engine block availability locally.
I guess that whole cash for clunkers thing really wasn't so great after all? Speaking of different engines, I'm going to start a thread talking about my compression test results and I'd like to know what ya'll think.
So I take it no one has installed one of these things. I like the idea of adding it to the filtration system, rather than replacing the filter. I'm sure if you did add this, you wouldn't have to replace our fuel filter as often.
Maybe I will buy one of these after I figure out what I'm going to do with this engine.
Kevin
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Looks to me like an expensive way to accomplish less...
http://www.cumminsforum.com/articles/articles/18/1/Anatomy-of-a-Frantz-toilet-paper-bypass-oil-filter/Page1.html (http://www.cumminsforum.com/articles/articles/18/1/Anatomy-of-a-Frantz-toilet-paper-bypass-oil-filter/Page1.html)
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that toilet paper filter is pure genius..
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Re: Centrifuges
The effectiveness of these in our small engines is debatable. There are larger units used on big rig long haul trucks which are anecdotally quite effective. However, those units are much larger, spin much faster, and are driven by air pressure rather than engine oil pressure. Big Rigs have air pressure systems which are useful for this purpose. In generating g-forces two things matter; size (diameter of the spinning cylinder) and speed (rate of rotation). I doubt that enough g's can be generated from our engine oil pressure in a unit that would fit under our hoods in order to remove a significant percentage of 1 micron contaminants.
I would be wary of using a centrifugal full flow filter for fear it may cause a decrease in engine oil pressure and/or oil starvation under some conditions. A centrifuge would seem to make more sense theoretically as a bypass filter; rather than a replacement for the stock full flow filter; for these reasons.
Re: Toilet Paper Filters
These are anecdotally effective as bypass filters in small diesel engines and have been in production since shortly after WWII. Critical to this kind of filter is the practice of re-topping the engine oil at the time of filter replacement. This serves to replenish the critical anti-corrosion and lubrication additives such that one can essentially forego draining and replenishing the engine oil every 3-5,000 miles (assuming you have no significant blow-by contamination of the engine oil with diesel fuel). Many users of the Frantz units and other similar systems will change the toilet paper filter every 3-5,000 miles, top up the oil, and then perform an annual full oil change and complete filter replacement. The Frantz system leaves your stock full flow oil filter in place. Additionally, it increases the total capacity of your engine oil lubrication system, generally a good thing.
Re: Extended oil filter change intervals
There is an extended service engine oil filter available which is of identical dimensions to the stock Mann filter; which will fit the Mk2 TD engine. As I recall it is a VW recommended replacement oil filter for the early 1.9L TDI's running purely synthetic motor oil, and is made by Mann. This filter has a change interval twice as long as the stock original filter. If you are running synthetic motor oil and running many miles per anum... then this may be an appropriate filter to use.
Re: Friction.
I understand that our engine blocks can only be rebult a certain number of times (3 to 4) before you run out of material to hone and piston sizes to upgrade to. So, there will someday be no more useable 1.6L cores around. Therefore, it makes sense to try to extend the useful life we get out of our engines... within reason.
The majority of engine wear occurs at startup and during the warm up process.
IMO, this would be optimally achieved by installing a diesel powered parking heater (Espar or Webasto) (or using a block heater routinely whenever the ambient temperature is below 70 degrees farenheit) and some sort of bypass motor oil filtration system.
If you shop around on ebay, you can probably pick up an NOS Frantz oil filter for under $200 shipped (I have seen them), or you can buy a new one from Frantz.
Parking heaters are a standard dealer installed option in Northern Europe, and can be found on German Ebay routinely. The difficulty is in finding proper installation and service in North America. Espar has a presence in the USA. Webasto has a presence in the boating community, but not much in the automotive category in the USA (other than sunroofs). I believe the cheapest professional install of such a unit I have ever read about was for $850 in Ohio.
Toyota mitigates the damage caused by cold starts in the Prius by installing a giant thermos sump in the cooling system... a brilliant entirely passive design. The contents of that sump remain hot for up to 24 hours.
Re: Soot
There is great debate about whether soot can be effectively removed from engine oil, and whether soot actually causes much damage to the engine when suspended in motor oil.
There are some bypass engine oil makers who claim that their product will remove soot from the engine oil. But, this field is so specialized, marginalized, and low volume, that no one appears to have deep enough pockets to fund the third party research necessary to corroborate these claims.
It is agreed that soot at some point does cause engine oil to acidify. Presumably this is a risk when the conditioners and stabilizers in the engine oil have outlived their useful life.
Re: Oil Starvation
A windage tray in the oil pan would seem to be a prudent investment to prevent oil starvation during hard cornering, and to reduce motor oil foaming. These tend to run about $45 and are made by Victor Reintz (sp). They have the added advantage of having a built in rubber oil pan gasket; so you can say goodbye to the stock cork one.
Amsoil makes a system for providing oil pressure at startup for engines. This is an interesting idea, but I have never actually seen one.
Re: Oil Filter cost
Stock Mann oil filters can be purchased by the case for around $6.00 apiece shipped. You will then be tripping over a whole case of filters, but it beats paying a big markup on a special order item locally.
Re: Caterpillar filters
There are many TDI owners who have adapted their vehicles to use CAT 2 micron filters rather than stock VW filters. I have not seen these used on any Mk2's. CAT filters are large, relatively inexpensive (around $11 apiece), and more effective than the stock TDI filters. I am not sure where I could fit such a large unit under the hood of my Mk2 Jetta TD.
Re: Fuel filtration
The stock 1.6L Mk2 Diesel fuel filter is supposedly around 10 microns. If you are going to filter the engine oil down to 2 microns, then if may make sense to filter the fuel to the same level. Crud in injectors is a bad thing; and damaged injectors can literally cut into pre-chambers and piston tops... like a water saw.
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When I can no longer find a good diesel to put in my VWs, I will take a gasser and build a steam engine out of it. :D
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Re: Centrifuges
The effectiveness of these in our small engines is debatable. There are larger units used on big rig long haul trucks which are anecdotally quite effective. However, those units are much larger, spin much faster, and are driven by air pressure rather than engine oil pressure. Big Rigs have air pressure systems which are useful for this purpose. In generating g-forces two things matter; size (diameter of the spinning cylinder) and speed (rate of rotation). I doubt that enough g's can be generated from our engine oil pressure in a unit that would fit under our hoods in order to remove a significant percentage of 1 micron contaminants.
I would be wary of using a centrifugal full flow filter for fear it may cause a decrease in engine oil pressure and/or oil starvation under some conditions. A centrifuge would seem to make more sense theoretically as a bypass filter; rather than a replacement for the stock full flow filter; for these reasons.
Re: Toilet Paper Filters
These are anecdotally effective as bypass filters in small diesel engines and have been in production since shortly after WWII. Critical to this kind of filter is the practice of re-topping the engine oil at the time of filter replacement. This serves to replenish the critical anti-corrosion and lubrication additives such that one can essentially forego draining and replenishing the engine oil every 3-5,000 miles (assuming you have no significant blow-by contamination of the engine oil with diesel fuel). Many users of the Frantz units and other similar systems will change the toilet paper filter every 3-5,000 miles, top up the oil, and then perform an annual full oil change and complete filter replacement. The Frantz system leaves your stock full flow oil filter in place. Additionally, it increases the total capacity of your engine oil lubrication system, generally a good thing.
Re: Extended oil filter change intervals
There is an extended service engine oil filter available which is of identical dimensions to the stock Mann filter; which will fit the Mk2 TD engine. As I recall it is a VW recommended replacement oil filter for the early 1.9L TDI's running purely synthetic motor oil, and is made by Mann. This filter has a change interval twice as long as the stock original filter. If you are running synthetic motor oil and running many miles per anum... then this may be an appropriate filter to use.
Re: Friction.
I understand that our engine blocks can only be rebult a certain number of times (3 to 4) before you run out of material to hone and piston sizes to upgrade to. So, there will someday be no more useable 1.6L cores around. Therefore, it makes sense to try to extend the useful life we get out of our engines... within reason.
The majority of engine wear occurs at startup and during the warm up process.
IMO, this would be optimally achieved by installing a diesel powered parking heater (Espar or Webasto) (or using a block heater routinely whenever the ambient temperature is below 70 degrees farenheit) and some sort of bypass motor oil filtration system.
If you shop around on ebay, you can probably pick up an NOS Frantz oil filter for under $200 shipped (I have seen them), or you can buy a new one from Frantz.
Parking heaters are a standard dealer installed option in Northern Europe, and can be found on German Ebay routinely. The difficulty is in finding proper installation and service in North America. Espar has a presence in the USA. Webasto has a presence in the boating community, but not much in the automotive category in the USA (other than sunroofs). I believe the cheapest professional install of such a unit I have ever read about was for $850 in Ohio.
Toyota mitigates the damage caused by cold starts in the Prius by installing a giant thermos sump in the cooling system... a brilliant entirely passive design. The contents of that sump remain hot for up to 24 hours.
Re: Soot
There is great debate about whether soot can be effectively removed from engine oil, and whether soot actually causes much damage to the engine when suspended in motor oil.
There are some bypass engine oil makers who claim that their product will remove soot from the engine oil. But, this field is so specialized, marginalized, and low volume, that no one appears to have deep enough pockets to fund the third party research necessary to corroborate these claims.
It is agreed that soot at some point does cause engine oil to acidify. Presumably this is a risk when the conditioners and stabilizers in the engine oil have outlived their useful life.
Re: Oil Starvation
A windage tray in the oil pan would seem to be a prudent investment to prevent oil starvation during hard cornering, and to reduce motor oil foaming. These tend to run about $45 and are made by Victor Reintz (sp). They have the added advantage of having a built in rubber oil pan gasket; so you can say goodbye to the stock cork one.
Amsoil makes a system for providing oil pressure at startup for engines. This is an interesting idea, but I have never actually seen one.
Re: Oil Filter cost
Stock Mann oil filters can be purchased by the case for around $6.00 apiece shipped. You will then be tripping over a whole case of filters, but it beats paying a big markup on a special order item locally.
Re: Caterpillar filters
There are many TDI owners who have adapted their vehicles to use CAT 2 micron filters rather than stock VW filters. I have not seen these used on any Mk2's. CAT filters are large, relatively inexpensive (around $11 apiece), and more effective than the stock TDI filters. I am not sure where I could fit such a large unit under the hood of my Mk2 Jetta TD.
Re: Fuel filtration
The stock 1.6L Mk2 Diesel fuel filter is supposedly around 10 microns. If you are going to filter the engine oil down to 2 microns, then if may make sense to filter the fuel to the same level. Crud in injectors is a bad thing; and damaged injectors can literally cut into pre-chambers and piston tops... like a water saw.
that for the oil filter? or fuel? im looking at upgrading filters in my car.. both oil and fuel.
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that for the oil filter? or fuel? im looking at upgrading filters in my car.. both oil and fuel.
The caterpillar filter is advocated by some TDI drivers as an oil filter. I am not aware of much discussion about fuel filter upgrades on TDI's, which suggests that folks are ok with the stock TDI fuel filter arrangement. They are not all happy about the price/performance of the stock oil filters. Fred's TDI is the place to read what those users have to say, and what mods they do to their TDI's for motor oil filtration.
The general consensus is that if you buy your diesel fuel from a high volume name brand fuel station, then you are much safer than you were 20 years ago. Water in diesel fuel at the pump is virtually unheard of anymore... This suggests that motor oil filtration is a much higher priority than upgrading the stock fuel filter.